Madonna, baby David and circumcision

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Rubenesque, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Rubenesque

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    I was reading in the paper this morning that Madonna is getting grief from the natural father of her 'adopted' son, David.

    She wants to raise him in the Kabbala faith, which as we all know is based in Judaism. That being the case, circumcision is expected.

    David's father is said to be furious about this because he is a Christian and the child was baptised as a Christian.

    So what do we think, should she be allowed to go against the fathers wishes?
     
  2. rob_just_rob

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    I had thought that once you give up a child for adoption, you also give up the right to make decisions about the child's upbringing. But I haven't done any research into the issue - so it may be that while legally, the birth parent has the right to input, input is seldom actually provided.

    One would think that Ms Ciccone would have hired legal counsel to draft the adoption agreement in a manner that would have given her independence from the wishes of the birth parent. Had she been really smart, she would have kept the whole thing out of the press to avoid any moral pressure from the father, who would have been completely anonymous absent the press attention. Unless, heaven forbid, this was a publicity stunt or an act of one-upwomanship vis-a-vis Angelina Jolie Voight.

    Aside: I noticed that while the child was raised christian, he was also raised poor. And I don't see the father making any objection to Ms Ciccone changing that aspect of David's upbringing.
     
  3. Rubenesque

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    I think this perfectly illustrates why I am against this particular adoption.

    There is a natural father who knows exactly where his son is and who he is with. This father, by all accounts, loved his son very much but just couldn't provide for him financially.

    I think it will, in the long run, prove to be very problematic. Both for the child, the natural father and the adoptive parents.

    As for the issue of circumcision.... I think she has to keep in mind that this childs father is a Christian and takes his faith seriously, apparently. Regardless of her rights as an adoptive parent, she should also remember that she has moral duties too.
     
  4. joyboytoy79

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    Denise,

    With all due respect, circumsision IS a moral issue in the Jewish faith. People of the Jewish faith believe that if the child is not circumcised he is not a child of god. How do you, or anyone else, presume to make moral judgements for this child? Madonna has adopted this child, which means his father has ceded all parental rights, including religious ones.
     
  5. Rubenesque

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    Then she really ought to have thought more about adopting a child with a parent who was, until the time of the adoption, active in the childs life. She can adopt a child, but she cannot pretend that he didn't have another life before she came along. She's removed him from his home, his culture and now his faith. I just think he would've been best served, if she REALLY wanted to help, if she'd enabled his father to care for him.

    But what do ethics matter when you want your latest celeb status symbol eh
     
  6. glenroebuck

    glenroebuck New Member

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    talk about believing the hype. The man was not involved the boy was at an orphanage..and dying.

    Take the name out of the equation and say it's Sally - Sally went over to africa, used her own money to set up health care for sick and dying children and in the process fell in love with one of the oprhans. She wanted to adopt him and by all accounts did so legally including getting permission from the living father who had abandoned his child (for what ever reason). People in Africa find out Sally is wealthy and start to question her motives, methods and powers of persuasion. The father suddenly is claiming he didn't know what he was doing he is a simple farmer...with a legal team, press agent and forgive me dollar signs in his eyes.

    now to the question of does she love the child? Is she is what is best for the child? - let me ask you this a person who could probably adopt anywhere or even have a surroget - chose this boy and is fighting to keep him...when it would be so much easier to let him go...
     
  7. Rubenesque

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    Well according to the orphanage the father visited weekly - hardly complete abandonment
     
  8. joyboytoy79

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    Well, then i guess the kid should go back to the orphanage, where he can live his life with sick and dying kids all around him, and have that close, once a week bond with his doting father.
     
  9. snoozan

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    If a parent can not care for his or her child and puts them in an orphanage, how can we pretend that this father is capable of caring for this child, and, further, if someone comes along that is willing and able to care for the child, what is the problem with letting the child get adopted?

    If we're looking at this purely from the point of view of what is best for the child, can you really say that he will be worse off being raised by someone that has the means to address his basic needs, health, education, etc. etc., things his father couldn't do?

    Bottom line is, this child has a chance at a better life now. If Madonna came in and took him away from his custodial father, fine, that's a problem. She didn't. He was an orphan. An orphan that is visited by his father once a week is still an orphan.
     
  10. Rubenesque

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    No one is saying that the father was capable of caring for him in his current situation. His wife died and he couldn't cope... by all accounts he didn't just abandon the child because he didn't care.

    The bottom line is... there are millions of children with NO parents who care, both in Africa and closer to one of her many homes that could've used a home and a loving parent. I just happen to think that she could've found a better way of helping this one.

    And JoyBoyToy - if you can find anywhere that I suggested David should've stayed in misery with children dying all around him, I'd like to see it!
     
  11. joyboytoy79

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    I never said you DID say that, but what would you rather be done Denise? And what alterior motive to you think Madonna has? Truly, if there are so many other children available for her to adopt, you must think she chose this one for SOME reason other than love, right? The way i see it, she adopted a child that was dying, and is promising him a life of love, caring, and comfort. I don't see how she's the evil villian in this story.
     
  12. Rubenesque

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    Fair enough, so you just thought you'd imply I might think your suggestion was preferable..... ok then.

    So, that I think this child would've been better served by being enabled to stay with his family makes me somehow, what? Wrong?

    Just because you love a child doesn't mean you have an absolute right to have it, regardless of how much money you have in the bank.

    And I don't think she's evil... I just think she's wrong.
     
  13. rob_just_rob

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    I'm thinking that the father and Ms Ciccone both have ulterior motives.

    Therefore, I disagree with both of you. :smile:
     
  14. Rubenesque

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    lol Rob, you're probably right
     
  15. joyboytoy79

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    I can't help but wonder if we'd even be having this debate if she'd adopted a white child from the Ukraine.

    Probably not, and that's SAD.
     
  16. snoozan

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    I can't help but look these statisics:

    Life expectancy in Malawi is 36.5 years.
    Child mortality is 103 per 1,000
    HIV/AIDS infection is estimated between 15% and 30%
    A child's access to education is limited to nonexistent
    Malawi has been plagued by famine since 2002, and the citizens are highly dependent on farming
    Access to healthcare is limited to nonexistent

    Now, if Madonna and her press junket had arrived in Malawi, picked up a child, and left with him/her, maybe it would have been different. But Madonna IS helping Malawi's orphans. Denise, she IS doing something for all these children. But she chose to adopt one that was UP FOR ADOPTION.

    Should she have chosen another child that was absolutely parentless? Maybe. But I look at it this way. A little over a month ago I went into the SPCA with JBT intent on looking at the cats and instead fell in love with a dog. Had that dog not been there or been available, we would not have gotten a dog. I know dogs and children are not the same, but I shared this anecdote to make a point. If she had not fallen in love with this child, she may not have adopted any child. People, even multimillionaires, have soft spots and fall in love for strange, unknown reasons.

    Back to my original point: what life will this child have if he's returned to Malawi*+? Short of Madonna revamping the entire country and probably all of Africa (which not even she could afford), he's going to face povery, AIDS, and death his entire life. Even if Madonna helps his family's circumstances, as long as he is in Malawi, he is going to be at risk for disease, death, and be unable to get a real education.

    Also, what about his family? With the life expectancy at 36.5, will his father statistically be around to even raise him? Or even his extended family?

    That child is being given an opportunity that is nothing short of miraculous. As a parent, one would think his father would be more practical and, with some bittersweetness, allow his child to be adopted knowing that he will be better off being raised by his adoptive parents. Everyone is yelling about how selfish Madonna is, how selfish is his family being? That child now has a chance at a good life.
     
  17. dreamer20

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    That should state should he be allowed to go against her wishes. The biological father gave up all rights to the child. Until the child reaches the age of majority he is subject to the whims of his new parents.
     
  18. dags

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    This situation has been disturbing to me since I heard about it and saw Madonna on Oprah several weeks ago. I've been a fan of Madonna and have enjoyed her music and videos and her antics over the years. I think her judgment on this one may be a little fuzzy. Why didn't she just donate an exuberant amount of money to build a big medical facility, adoption service, orphanage or provide funding her own welfare system, or develop some business, such as farming or manufacturing so people can work and help themselves become more independent? This particular situation and decision to adopt was bound to face problems, but based on some of her past decisions she's possibly way ahead of us.
    I believe celebrities and other wealthy people who have been blessed especially should give back to the world and society. They have the means and the power to cause real change in our world.
    Rosie O'Donnell was a guest on the actors studio and I'll never forget what she said about money, if you have too much then you haven't given enough. As far as I'm concerned not enough has been done to really start solving some of the serious problems in the world today. All the ingredients are here, the right recipe is what were missing.
     
  19. snoozan

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