Making Sense Of Sexual Orientation

malakos

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Is anyone here aware of any theories on the cause of diversity in sexual orientation that are (somewhat) satisfyingly rigorous and explanatory? Seems like most of the time sexual orientation being diverse and also inborn is just taken for granted without any attempt to explain the how of it. Occasionally I've been acquainted with studies on twins and other siblings of homosexuals that reflect possible genetic and uterine factors. But I've only ever seen these studies in isolation, and they've only, at best, demonstrated what seems to be co-factors. Twins being more likely to have the same sexual orientation doesn't fully answer the question, it just indicates that there is some genetic component.

To put it simply, I'm wondering if anyone feels they have a good explanation for why people have the sexual orientations they have, and how they got them? Any sorts of answers I'd welcome, even skeptical/deflationary, metaphysical, etc.
 

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Interesting question.

Yes, it's nature vs nurture... I certainly don't know the answer but I have wondered that if homosexuality is nature, ie genetic, then how come a gene that is predisposed to the holder not having children keeps popping up?

If you see what I mean.
 
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malakos

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Interesting question.

Yes, it's nature vs nurture... I certainly don't know the answer but I have wondered that if homosexuality is nature, ie genetic, then how come a gene that is predisposed to the holder not having children keeps popping up?

If you see what I mean.

Yes. I have thoughts about the genetic factor, but I don't want to get into too much speculation, since I don't have the knowledge base to warrant it (I have college freshman level biology (the version for humanities student), but nothing really beyond that). I think it's fair to assume that of those who wind up homosexual, only a slim minority of them had a homosexual parent. So it's not like gays are around because of passing on the gay gene.
 
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I've read (years ago, so I can't cite references) anthropology research theories that because in many pre-industrial societies on several continents, gay men were thought of as priests, shamans, healers, vision-guides, and leaders, there was a cultural norm that homosexual children would bring prestige to the family.
There's apparently a stronger history of this with gay men than with lesbians across many cultures.
 
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I am not sure. I had dreams from, well, rather early on in my life about a broad spectrum of people. I also have found myself drawn to all sorts of people, thinking they were beautiful from that age. My folk are very hetero-normative, white bread, middle class, blah blah. Fairly heavily religious, too. Before I really even knew anything about/had heard of gender fluidity or any kind of gender bending, I was attracted to androgyny and gender bending. It took time to gain self-confidence to hit on folk that are the same sex as me, but the attraction was still there even when it was not acted upon. At least in my case, I do not think it was from any kind of outside influence. I always have found women attractive. I always have found men attractive. I have always found androgyny, gender fluidity, and gender bending attractive (though I did not always know the vocabulary for it).

It does seem some folks, they are not aware of attraction towards a gender/type/etc until they are exposed to it, often in a particular light. Not so for me, though.
 
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Is anyone here aware of any theories on the cause of diversity in sexual orientation that are (somewhat) satisfyingly rigorous and explanatory? Seems like most of the time sexual orientation being diverse and also inborn is just taken for granted without any attempt to explain the how of it. Occasionally I've been acquainted with studies on twins and other siblings of homosexuals that reflect possible genetic and uterine factors. But I've only ever seen these studies in isolation, and they've only, at best, demonstrated what seems to be co-factors. Twins being more likely to have the same sexual orientation doesn't fully answer the question, it just indicates that there is some genetic component.

To put it simply, I'm wondering if anyone feels they have a good explanation for why people have the sexual orientations they have, and how they got them? Any sorts of answers I'd welcome, even skeptical/deflationary, metaphysical, etc.



Do a goggle search on “sexual orientation and epigenetics”

One bit of research at the link below has a number of studies.

Google Scholar

Most of the literature is totally beyond my educational level / understanding.

===============================================================

However, the basic concept is that many different environmental conditions including both parents health and lifestyle at the time of conception can ride on a persons DNA and alter the individuals health and personality.

Who you are and what choices you have in life turns out to be a very complicated roll of the dice.... and you may pass some or all of these down for several generations.
 
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Interesting question.

Yes, it's nature vs nurture... I certainly don't know the answer but I have wondered that if homosexuality is nature, ie genetic, then how come a gene that is predisposed to the holder not having children keeps popping up?

If you see what I mean.
Yes. I have thoughts about the genetic factor, but I don't want to get into too much speculation, since I don't have the knowledge base to warrant it (I have college freshman level biology (the version for humanities student), but nothing really beyond that). I think it's fair to assume that of those who wind up homosexual, only a slim minority of them had a homosexual parent. So it's not like gays are around because of passing on the gay gene.


And as if we need more to confuse the issue consider this, one moth split down the middle. One half male and the other half female.

Gynandromorphy

So far no humans found like this???

Beauty of the dual-gender butterfly

moth male and femal.jpg
 

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Seems like most of the time sexual orientation being diverse and also inborn is just taken for granted without any attempt to explain the how of it.

This statement seems to presume that orientation is black-or-white, i.e. that individuals are either straight or gay. Such is not the case. We have three decades of laboratory data showing that ~90% of us have some sexual physiological response to both sexes. Only ~10% of us have zero sexual physiological response to either the same or opposite sex.

This 10% splits about evenly between males and females. That 5% splits about evenly between straight and gay within each sex. The result looks like this:

~90% of humans have some sexual physiological response to both sexes
~2.5% of males have zero sexual physiological response to other males (are 100% heterosexual)
~2.5% of females have zero sexual physiological response to other females (are 100% heterosexual)
~2.5% of males have zero sexual physiological response to females (are 100% homosexual)
~2.5% of females have zero sexual physiological response to males (are 100% homosexual).

Any study of twins, genetic or fetal developmental factors determining sexual orientation would have to begin with test subjects whose lab tests show they are 100% hetero- or homosexual before I would begin to consider results of those studies valid.

Ah, the absolute bitch of experimental controls. :cool:

Yes, it's nature vs nurture... I certainly don't know the answer but I have wondered that if homosexuality is nature, ie genetic, then how come a gene that is predisposed to the holder not having children keeps popping up?

The problem with this is that nurture IS nature because we are instinctual learners. What we learn is very much dependent on socialization & indoctrination in a culture. That we learn is instinctual. We cannot help it any more than we can help breathing.

A short answer as to why a gene that is predisposed to the holder not having children keeps popping up is that 1) very few humans are absolute lifetime homosexuals and 2) our population is so huge there's almost no selection pressure to eliminate such a gene or genes. Okay 3) homosexual couples & individuals may procreate passing half their genes to their progeny.:)

Great topic. Fascinating research.
 

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I am surprised no one has mentioned the birth order hypothesis or the digit ratio...

I think the current general consensus is that it is a perinatal event that pushes you one way or the other. Definitely something that happens around the mini-puberty.
 
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And as if we need more to confuse the issue consider this, one moth split down the middle. One half male and the other half female.

Gynandromorphy

So far no humans found like this???

Beauty of the dual-gender butterfly

View attachment 23005961

In birds, gynandromophy is quite more dramatic: one half of the brain is feminized while the other half is masculinized. The song birds have very dramatic differences in the brain, especially in the song nucleus so it is easy to tell if you are looking at a boy or girl bird brain...
 
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I am surprised no one has mentioned the birth order hypothesis or the digit ratio...

I think the current general consensus is that it is a perinatal event that pushes you one way or the other. Definitely something that happens around the mini-puberty.
I'd heard of the digit ratio/testosterone theory but what that has to do with perinatal events is beyond me...

You almost sound like you know what you're talking about :)

Tell us more.
 
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In birds, gynandromophy is quite more dramatic: one half of the brain is feminized while the other half is masculinized. The song birds have very dramatic differences in the brain, especially in the song nucleus so it is easy to tell if you are looking at a boy or girl bird brain...
I'd heard of the digit ratio/testosterone theory but what that has to do with perinatal events is beyond me...

You almost sound like you know what you're talking about :)

Tell us more.

Don’t have much use for the New York Magazine, but if you are interested in genetic / gay correlations then this article from 2007 may be of interest. Items discussed have been generally discounted, but the article caught a lot of interest in its day.
The Science of Gaydar - New Research on Everything From Voice Pitch to Hair Whorl -- New York Magazine - Nymag
 

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I'd heard of the digit ratio/testosterone theory but what that has to do with perinatal events is beyond me...

You almost sound like you know what you're talking about :)

Tell us more.

I have an advanced degree in biology and one of my specialties is the effects of hormones in the brain. But I am not an expert in the biology of human sex preferences.

When I last checked a couple of years ago, the most popular theory was that when a woman is pregnant, she may develop some type of antibodies against male markers or testosterone (I cant remember). These antibodies then somehow affect development development of the developing child.

This is the reason why birth order is thought to play a role. Handness goes with it, I cant remember why. I am a right handed guy and I would have had brothers older than me but my mom miscarried.

My ex was a lefty and he didn't have older brothers.

This is the typical pattern. Older brothers and right handed. No older brothers left handed.

The other part of the story is that perinatal exposure to high androgen levels (probably as a response to the mothers antibodies?) enlongates certain bones. This is also thought to make gay men penises bigger and may also affect the libido.

All of these events are perinatal and have nothing or little to do with the genes of the fetus. It is possible certain genes predispose a mother to having gay children.

We know very little about lesbians and the biological underpinnings of their sexual "preference ".

Thats more or less what I know.....
 
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Yeah, where's a geneticist-cum-developmental psychologist when you need one?

I am the latter, but not the former.

You can get deeply into the neurobiological and/or psychological nuances, but in my experience that usually takes a lay audience off into the unhelpful weeds. At the end of the day, developmental psychology consists of an enormous diversity of causality when studied outside of a generalized model. In other words, when you look at what influences an individual (rather than a population), there is a huge degree of variances regarding "what causes what." Most of it is nearly impossible to measure in a way that we can use for any kind of analytical purpose.

If you simply want a solid theoretical foundation of where sexual orientation originates and is subsequently externalized, my offering is this: Sexual orientation is a complex manifestation of genetic predispositions, environmental factors and behavioral responses to external feedback. It can be impacted by the chronological occurrence of influences within the developmental arc. It can also be inhibited or (rarely) encouraged through social learning within a prevailing culture.

Put even more simply: Your sexual orientation is certainly part of who you are, but its direction and strength are influenced by many factors. Some are biological variances and some elements come from the life you have lived. Very little of it is connected to anything you've ever had any control over.
 
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I am the latter, but not the former.

You can get deeply into the neurobiological and/or psychological nuances, but in my experience that usually takes a lay audience off into the unhelpful weeds. At the end of the day, developmental psychology consists of an enormous diversity of causality when studied outside of a generalized model. In other words, when you look at what influences an individual (rather than a population), there is a huge degree of variances regarding "what causes what." Most of it is nearly impossible to measure in a way that we can use for any kind of analytical purpose.

If you simply want a solid theoretical foundation of where sexual orientation originates and is subsequently externalized, my offering is this: Sexual orientation is a complex manifestation of genetic predispositions, environmental factors and behavioral responses to external feedback. It can be impacted by the chronological occurrence of influences within the developmental arc. It can also be inhibited or (rarely) encouraged through social learning within a prevailing culture.

Put even more simply: Your sexual orientation is certainly part of who you are, but its direction and strength are influenced by many factors. Some are biological variances and some elements come from the life you have lived. Very little of it is connected to anything you've ever had any control over.


Apologies to the OP, as I know this information is far less specific than what he might hope to see.

Most researchers have concluded that sexual orientation is a complex, multifactorial issue in which biological, social and psychological factors combine to play a role in the ultimate sexual orientation of an individual. According to Julie Harren, Ph.D., the formula for this interplay between factors might be represented by these equations:

--Genes + Brain Wiring + Prenatal Hormonal Environment = Temperament.
--Parents + Peers + Experiences = Environment.
--Temperament + Environment = Sexual Orientation.

At this point in our cultural development, I am actually pleased that no one knows what the key processes are in sexual attraction or how to manipulate them.

My best guess is that processes coming from epigenetic studies will go a long way to explain our nature / nurture uniqueness.
 
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