Male bonding isn't the same as homosexuality

Discussion in 'Show Off' started by Ganymede, Dec 11, 2006.

  1. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    PREFACE

    I hesitate to even start this thread because I realize that this can potentially offend some gay men. So, let me start off by offering the Seinfeldian "not that there's anything wrong with it." Most gay men I have known have been wonderful people and I have no problem with gay men. Now that I have that out of the way, I hope I can proceed....

    NOT EVERYTHING ABOUT MEN IS SEXUAL

    I decided not to go back to the thread called "frat stories" because it got too heated. But in rereading the thread, I think I have realized that what offended so many guys was the implication that frats are simply covers for gay male activity. To that, I want to offer an apology: that was never what I meant to imply. All I was suggesting was that there was homoeroticism in frats; and, by the way, I think that homoeroticism is inevitable in any environment dominated by any one gender. I think homoeroticism is inevitable when women are in an all-woman space. And I think it is inevitable when men are in an all-male space. However, I never meant to implay that homoeroticism is all that exists in college frats.

    I think that the reason my opinions on that other thread may've rubbed some the wrong way was because apparently some people met other males in frats that they care a lot about, and it appeared that all I was saying was that the only reason they cared about each other was because they were sexually attracted to one another. That wasn't what I meant to say at all.

    To close this post, I think what needs to be said is that I understand that when men get close it is not always solely sexual. I think that this is a concept that exists in the US particularly, the idea that the only reason to be close to another male is if you are sexually attracted to him. The next step in this logic is to think that any two males, or any group of males, that are close are sexually attracted to one another or in a sexual relationship. Maybe this is where the myth about circle jerks in fraternities comes from. And most likely this is why men in frats continually emphasize the word "brother" and "brotherhood" in that thread, to emphasize a non-sexual bond between the males in frats.

    I just wanted to post this to clear the air from that "frat stories" thread. I don't know if I'll be back, though, because I don't think I have much left to say on this topic, and I frankly don't want to get in any more arguments.

    PS: I should probably add that I understand that gay males can bond among themselves without the bond being necessarily sexual. And people can also bond and have the bond in part be sexual. Maybe a better title for this thread would be "there are many different levels of bonding."
     
  2. D_Roderick Beresford Stiffington IV

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    I'm the kind of person who doesn't get insulted very easily, whether it be a remark of my race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. So I cannot say anything about why members of a frat would be offended by that. However, you shouldn't be crucified for making an observation of a stereotype portrayed by many movies and the all mighty internet.

    According to television and the internet...Asian males have small penises. Porn websites for the most part when you go to the Asian section will show small framed males with smaller penises. Whether or not the stereotype is true, there are a good number of average sized Asian males, and I've seen a lot of big guys.

    Look at all the Jew jokes out there, like the ones in Borat for example. I loved the movie and found the jokes funny but a lot of people were offended by how Jews are portrayed.

    Its late and my mind isn't completely focused, but the point I'm trying to make is that every single group, organization, has its stereotypes and will be labeled a certain way whether true or not. So Frats got stuck with being portrayed as a front for homosexuality. Only they truly know what it is they do, I've never been part of a frat but its my understanding they're a proud bunch. Its my opinion they should stop fearing what other people think they are and continue to do their thing. Alright I'm gonna stop typing now cause I sense nonsense steaming from my keyboard and I lack the ability to make coherent sentences.
     
  3. kalipygian

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    The homophobia our society is burdened with makes male bonding more difficult.
     
  4. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    Basically, I think that men really need other men, whether gay or straight. It's not always an issue of sexuality. But I think our homophobic society has equated men needing other men with being sexual; and then, of course, our society says that men who need other men are gay, which society then says is abnormal and deviant. In other words, it seems that our society sexualizes everything. In particular, men are sexualized. There is some nonsensical statistic out there that men think about sex every 12 seconds. This isn't true at all. If all men thought about was sex then they wouldn't be able to do anything else.

    Men, in my opinion, are a bit unusual on the topic of homosexuality. Women don't seem to be so caught up on whether what they are doing is seen as gay or not. Men are more caught up on that. Women can compliment one another all the time without it being seen as a sexual come-on, but let a straight man mention that another straight man is handsome or, God forbid, has a nice penis, and he is labeled as gay, or latent gay. Yet I've heard many women comment on other women's breasts, say they are nice, and no one bats an eye.

    I suppose my point is that this society doesn't really allow or encourage men to bond. When they do bond, such as in a fraternity, it seems that this society, which tends to sexualize everything (particularly where men are concerned), wants to sexualize it. The underlying logic is that all men really want is sex. Sex is all we live for. This is not true at all.

    I now have compassion for frat boys. If the relationships are really as meaningful as they say they are, then it must be frustrating to have society assume that all they do is get drunk, watch porn, and have circle jerks.

     
  5. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    Geez. Thank you for putting so succinctly what took me about four paragraphs to say.

    I think that a result of what you say is that some men who want to bond with other men end up questioning their sexuality. "If I want a close relationship with another man does that mean I'm gay?"

    It seems our society says that a real man does not need another man. I don't think this is true at all. I think men need other men very much, whether gay or straight.

     
  6. goffer009

    goffer009 New Member

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    I´d just like to say that most of my closest "brothers" are straight and I feel closer to them emotionally than to any fellow gay(except for my partner of course:smile: ). Just yesterday I was lying in bed with my best friend telling him all about a few problems I am having at this time. He put my head to his chest stroked my head and said that all would be fine and that he´s always here when needed. That to me is real male bonding! It has nothing to do with sex at all, it´s feeling at ease with another male human-being who you can talk to about any and everything. Í feel truly lucky to have a friend like him and he knows he has a shoulder to cry on when needed. I think men have always been programmed to put bonding in a sexual context, therefore when two men are very close people start to speculate about them, instead of admiring there friendship. I don´t think I have to tell anyone on this site that TRUE friendship is extremely difficult to come by and when you find it you should value it for what it is, male bonding! Straight, Gay, or Bi (Bond Men Bond!:biggrin1: )
     
  7. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    Yes, true friendship is very hard to come by.

    I've read that close same-gender friendships were once far more highly regarded than heterosexual romantic friendships. I've read that it all changed in the 20th century, in part due to the influence of Freud (ironically) because he basically correlated so much to human sexuality. Freud, in some ways, led to everything being sexualized. Actually, I think he basically said that all of human behavior was just based on a desire to reproduce.

    About your relationship with your friend, I think that's wonderful. I've heard, though, that this sort of thing is more common in Europe. In the US, it seems to be well known that European men are more allowed to express their emotions than American men are. I think in the US there is the idea that European men are more sensual, which is one reason American women love European men.

    My brother-in-law was born in the US to Polish-born parents. He told me that his father always kissed him on the lips, and that he in turn always kissed his own sons on the lips. My brother-in-law told me about a time he took a son to the airport and before he left he told his son to kiss him goodbye. The son resisted, saying it would look odd to others. But they did end up kissing. My brother-in-law said that an older woman saw them kiss, then started to cry. She then explained that she was from Russia and hadn't seen that since she had been in "the old country."

    This page talks about a time when close friendships between people of the same gender were more valued than heterosexual romantic friendships. Romantic friendship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  8. goffer009

    goffer009 New Member

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    Thanks for the nice response to my post. And yes, it is true that European men are more open emotionally than American men. Being American myself (I was born in Florida). I value this openess very much, although I think the younger generation is becoming more and more Americanized and they sometimes refuse to kiss their dads just because of how it might be perceived:confused: . That´s a real shame, but I guess that´t just one of the costs of everything going global!
     
  9. mustang43

    mustang43 Active Member

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    the whole frat thread was stupid. i think it was merely put up there so the homosexuals could fantasize about a bunch of college guys foolin around with eachother. the same goes for football locker rooms. all of this homoerotic stuff is bullshit. we are MEN. we like women. i don't mind homosexuals and appreciate how they live their life. just dont create fantasies where they dont belong
     
  10. hot-rod

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    Talk about fantasy. Dude, look between your legs. That's fantasy! LOL
     
  11. DC_DEEP

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    Well, actually, it's people who are too stupid to resist "herd mentality" that cause the homophobia. But yes, good point, kalipygian.

    Stupid parents teach their children to hate anyone "different." Stupid children continue to believe it once they reach adulthood, and then stupidly teach it to their own children, who are stupid enough....
     
  12. viking1

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    Another great thread. I agree totally with what has been said here so far.

    I think all this homophobia and generally "stiff" attitudes in this country are why I have never had a really close male friend. I needed "male bonding" when I was growing up, but I didn't have that experience. Nearly all of my family are very homophobic.

    I love the USA but I have often wondered how much different things are in Europe. I have also wondered at time why my ancestors came to the New World and what growing up and living in Europe might be like.
     
  13. Gisella

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    Yeh..men in the US seems very lonely creatures...they have activities bound buddies but are not 'allowed' be too expressive with each other..than many times when those men get gf wife whatever those women become the total friend where is the only way them can express...wives sometimes becomes husband best friends...and did not need to be this way.

    I'm a by product of a loving male family..where I watch close relationship beetween males. And the ones who has natural trait to be emotional expressives are not look at strange and can be themselves. They are not looked as wick or whatever.

    The cool thing is that because my brother and I was always being take everywhere with my Dad and I as a girl always between my brothers and fathers friends and business :biggrin1: ..here I'm invading males bondings threads..because I can and I belong too as I was tought...:cool:

    And when you guys hug and kiss each other as brothers I want be sandwich between all the testosterone receiving the vibes too...hmmm I do love be among males...

    :flowers1:
     
  14. noface60

    noface60 Member

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    this kinda makes me want a male friend to genuienely, closely, bond with in friendship.
     
  15. Mr. Snakey

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    Its a step away from it. Mabye a glass of wine and thats it............:wink: They gonna drop them pants......Then the bonding begins:tongue:
     
  16. viking1

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    Yeah, I'm really lonely now. My Dad passed away last winter and I have no close male friends now...and no girl friend right now either. I have been quite miserable of late...and now I'm off work for two weeks with back problems on top of it. Sorry for the rant.
     
  17. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    If it wasn't emphasized well enough in the intro to this particular thread, let me repeat: I started the other threat called "Frat Stories" and I did not do so because I was interested in hearing "hot and sexy" stories that would turn me on. I'm not gay. I am, however, interested in human sexuality, which is why the topic interests me.

    When I started that thread, I was interested in the following question:

    * How it is that such a heterosexual society as college frats could engage in homoerotic behavior like circle jerks?

    Now that I know that circle jerks in frats either never happen, or are extremely rare, I'm interested in the following question:

    * Why does society think that frats engage in homoerotic behavior? Why does society think that whenever men are in exclusive male-dominated societies, sexual activity is inevitable among the men?

    Take Kinsey, for example. He studied sexuality, including homosexuality. But does that mean he was what he studied? No. Just because I started a thread about frats and the alleged homoeroticism in them doesn't mean I myself am gay or in a frat. I'm neither gay nor in a frat. Therefore, I have no baggage with any of this. Interesting, though, that those who misunderstood me in that thread were either gay or in frats, or both. If I go back and look over that thread, I see that those who had no problem with what I was saying were either not in frats or were not gay, or both. (There were even some who had no idea what frats were.) Alfred Kinsey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There was a benefit to that thread because I learned things about frats I hadn't known. I'll close by noting that, yes, frat men are "MEN", but so are gay men.

     
  18. montanaguy

    montanaguy New Member

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    and there is another term used for guys that are into other guys, but not the gay lifestyle, and that term is "g0y" with the "o" being a "0" or zero. do a google on it sometime.
     
  19. Ganymede

    Ganymede Guest

    Interesting. Oddly, "goy" (with a regular "o") is the Jewish term for non-Jewish person.
     
  20. Matthew

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    Thanks for making that point, Ganymede. There are gay guys in frats, gay guys in football, etc., but my guess is they are mostly closeted individuals. So I agree that the gay porn scenarios are mostly fantasies and wishful thinking.

    You're right, men can bond with each other in all kinds of ways, from purely sexual to completely non-sexual. And maybe some gray areas in between. I think close friendships with women are awesome too, but a deep bond with a male friend is a very valuable thing. That kind of brotherhood helps give life meaning.

    Are those friendships discouraged by social mores? I'm not sure, but I don't plan to spend any time worrying about that. I love my best guy friends and they love me - beautiful thing. Life is short, be happy now.
     
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