Male-Male Intimacy

Ethyl

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For me, I think it is environmental. I have met men my age who were raised in well educated homes, with liberal (not morally bankrupt) parents who never placed negative associations with a male/male hug. For these men it was just what it was, a hug. I always know when I'm around broad minded individuals like this because the energy they give off to those around them is balanced and comforting.

It's always a pleasure to meet people who are a product of this type of environment, they tend to bring out the natural course of human behavior in everyone.
Generous, giving and no hang up's when it comes to a simple hug from the same sex.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything here. It's most refreshing to be in the midst of a group of like-minded folks who understand the difference between intimacy and anything smacking of sexuality or what is inappropriate for the occasion. It's not something one should even have to think about but there are men who constantly show less affection for fear of any outward affectionate gesture being interpreted as something else. That's sad.

But yes, balanced and comforting indeed.
I agree with EBlend and others that this is purely environmental and cultural, not "natural" or "the way things should be." So I'm trying to become more like Lex, DC, and others who can express affection for other people in public without fear.
Watching them interact with each other is a truly wonderful experience. The warm, affection, and love is all there without the fear and worry of what other people think. Quite liberating to witness and partake in. :smile:

My partner is a little more hesitant than I am in displaying friendly affection in public but that's due to his sometimes debilitating shyness, not a lack of warmth. The more time he spends with me in public, the less shy he is around others.
NCbear (who really appreciates MB's further exploration of this idea, and who feels enormously complimented by Her Blissfulness's quoting him :smile::wink:)
Great minds think alike. :redface::biggrin1:
 

220483

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the cultural aspect is very important for it is it that defines what is appropriate or not. for example, in many of the mediterranean cultures, where I was educated, man hugging affectionately and even kissing isn't frown upon. it's a part of our way of life.
in the other hand, the closeness of two men isn't looked as something [I would say] regular, as homosexuality is, still, viewed by many latin cultures as something wrong an unholy.

anyway, in my case, no problem like the one typical of latin cultures has ever happened to me. my father and brothers have always kissed me and I've kissed them back... and the same with my close friends, even if they're gay or not!
 

crescendo69

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There is no male physical affection in my family. My dad has always been the best provider and helper in every situation in my brothers' and my own life; generous to a tee. But hugging just makes him uncomfortable. I only saw him kiss Mom publically once at an airport before leaving on a business trip (God, was I seven?). I know he loves us all; he just can't cross over to that level of intimacy.

In my thirties, I went to a very conservative church, completely against my liberal upbringing, for a long time, partly due to the encouragement of male-to-male hugging there. But the homophobic preaching, coupled with a dramatic drop in membership eventually discouraged me and I left after 19 years.

I am lucky to get a male hug anywhere more than a couple times a year. One straight friend hugged me at his new-house-warming party when I arrived, but never otherwise in the 22 years I have known him. He has enough problems getting dates with women, and I guess he doesn't want the "gay" pressure since he dresses somewhat metro-sexually.

So it is partly my upbringing, partly east Tennessee, and partly the friends I keep that lead to this "no-touch" existence. I wonder, if I moved to a more "touchy" place, would I get to give and receive more affection? A brief, month-long encounter (not sexual) with a 21-year-old straight Malaysian boy was such a delight, before he had to return home. Hand-holding, hugging, massages, and arms-over-the shoulder were a norm with us.
I actually felt I had to warn him against too much affection when I let him off at the bus station on his way to Ney York.

Cyber-hugs to everyone here.
 

ballsaplenty2156

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I've grown up in a very American-Irish family, and there has never been much show of physical affection between men. My parents are somewhat physically affectionate with each other, but I wouldn't say overly so or in public.
There is not many instances that I can recall, where my father has ever hugged me or my brother. I know he loves us but he does not demonstrate it in a physical manner. My mom is not much better with physical affection, particularly as I've gotten older.
Many of my friends from high school and college are of Italian and Latino descent, and are much more able to express their feelings physically, with hugs and touching, than I am. I've even discussed this with my buddies who are of Irish descent, and they too, feel we (Irish) tend to withhold physical affection a great deal. I've come to really enjoy the hugs and pats on the back expressed by my pals.
I feel bad that many people of my ethnic origin are missing out on experiencing that feeling of closeness with another human being. I hope to one day just give my dad and uncles great big hugs and have them accept it as just a feeling of closeness and love.
 

B_dxjnorto

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North Americans are particularly independent - can be to a fault. I suppose it's because people came here fleeing various things, religious oppression, aristocracy, feudal societies. When they found the same shit going on in the New World they took off cross-country or even sailed around Cape Horn to get to the opposite coast. People seem to have a more independent bent as you go west. I don't know where homophobia fits into that, but it seems related to the rough tuff western "cowboy" individualist image to me.
 

Drifterwood

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Care to elaborate?

I spend quite a lot of time in the Med, Eastern Med in particular, and some what you may call Middle Eastern Countries. I kiss my male friends whenever we meet and we walk together arm in arm or arms over shoulders. There are sexual taboo areas, but all other areas are normal. We hug and kiss children without fear of being paedophiles.
 

BIGBULL29

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On the West Coast, it may seem that men give quick hugs to other male friends a bit more often, but all in all, North Americans are still relatively offended by male-to-male affection in public (some leeway is obviously given if its between father and son, brothers, grandfather and grandson)

North Americans are not the only people like with regards to male-to-affection: Scandinavians, British Islers, the Swiss, Germans, and the Dutch pretty much have an aversion to it as well as they do with public affection in general. :biggrin1:

I actually found Eastern European males to be highly affectionate with other males. As regards Roman peoples, the Italians, Portuguese and Spanish, and to a lesser degree, the French, also engage in public demonstration of male affection.
 

Ethyl

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I spend quite a lot of time in the Med, Eastern Med in particular, and some what you may call Middle Eastern Countries. I kiss my male friends whenever we meet and we walk together arm in arm or arms over shoulders. There are sexual taboo areas, but all other areas are normal. We hug and kiss children without fear of being paedophiles.

As it should be. My former boss was born in Italy and raised in Argentina. His family is very affectionate with each other. It's the norm for men to hug and kiss each other on the cheek. However, I thought it was unfair of you to "fix" my statement for this reason. See below.

North Americans are not the only people like with regards to male-to-affection: Scandinavians, British Islers, the Swiss, Germans, and the Dutch pretty much have an aversion to it as well as they do with public affection in general. :biggrin1:
I have spent time in the Scandinavian countries and they are, in general, more stoic in their interaction with family members and others than say, Mediterraneans. Men aren't encouraged to hug one another or display other types of non-sexual affection, particularly the older generation.
 

carson cole

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I can't remember who created this quote, But it goes- "Men are more comfortable holding guns to each other in war, than holding hands together in love."
Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
 

sykray

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I find this a fascinating topic. I am a psychologist, psychotherapist and sex therapist. I am also in some ways an aging hippie and predominantly gay. In the late 60s I took advantage of the hippie culture to hug and kiss my male friends, irrespective of their sexual orientation - if they felt comfortable with it. When leading "encounter" groups I noted (as did others) that until the men felt comfortable being physically affectionate that very little real emotional work was done by them.

I got involved in co-counselling (eventually leading and teaching) and again there is a culture of hugging and kissing between men.

There is something counter-cultural about being gay so being openly and publically affectionate (not prolonged "making out" as the people from the left hand side of the Atlantic call it) with a simple hug and kiss was part of my normal behaviour in the UK, unless it was clear to me that the other guy would be uncomfortable with it.

Holidays in Greece gave me frequent witness to men being physically affectionate. Visiting Argentina was interesting as male work colleagues and casual acquaintances seemed to kiss on meeting and parting and not just friends.

Here in Thailand (and surrounding countries) male-male affection - holding hands, arms around shoulders or waists and "sniff" kissing (like the air kiss but it involves a sniff) is common - more common than public affection between the sexes. As someone else said, here as in many cultures, people feel as if they are not having a real conversation with you unless they are touching you - holding a hand, holding an arm, touching the leg or shoulder.

I voluntarily teach English in a vocational school for physically disabled young adults (17 to 35 year old). The students are mainly men and they often cuddle one another, in or out of class. They will rest their heads in the lap of a friend. My students will hug me, sniff-kiss me, sit on my knee, rest their heads on my lap and often stroke and touch me when speaking with me. It is possible that this is more prevalent in view of their disabilities but culturally it is normal behaviour.

Fear of being thought gay or soft or weak or whatever seems to inhibit many men. The most natural and undistressed feeling between any two people is to love and feel close.

I saw news reports about tragedies, such as collapsing walls in football (soccer stadia). I could see men from rival team fan groups cradling an injured or dying "enemy" weeping and stroking and kissing them. We shouldn't need such extremity to break through our reserve about being intimate with our fellow man (and woman. too, of course).
 

nubian

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I think much of this depends on individuals. I grew up in a home and in a church were men hugging each other was normal and expected, so not a big deal for me.

I'm also a touchy-feely person by nature, so hugs come natural to me, as does putting an arm around someones shoulder or even messing with their hair. But I've learned to be respectful of other people's boundaries.

Some guy friends don't do hugs, and prefer handshakes, and that's cool. Many others are more than cool with hugs. I would say among guys in their teens and 20s, we tend to be much more chill about that stuff.

My friend who is a high schooler told me that his mom once asked him if he was gay because he had been laying against another guy friend of ours while we were watching a movie. My immediate reaction was to burst into laughter because such an idea is so absurd to me, but I know other people have this weird notion that physical intimacy among guys equals sexual intimacy.

I wish our American culture would see the value in allowing men to feel free to be themselves and love each other.
 

HazelGod

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So...what say you? Are men only doing what they're programmed to do or are they avoiding intimacy with each other, be it sexual or not?

An interesting question, Bliss.

I tend to be a physically affectionate person, generally speaking...but I'm also very conscious that it makes some people uncomfortable. So while my friends and family (big Catholic ones on both sides) are accustomed to hugs and close contact all around, I try to gauge how receptive new people I meet are to close contact and be respectful of any shyness or discomfort they emote.

I've also noticed that it's cultural where I live. For example, I don't hug most people I work with on any occasion...the unerring exception being the folks from south of the border. Aside from the Venezuelan girl in my office who could double for Salma Hayek, and the Colombian girl who's taught me salsa merengue, I always hug these two guys as well...one Nicaraguan gent whom I regularly play racquetball with, and one Mexican fellow who's my partner in thrills (skydiving, SCUBA). None of them ever gave me the time to figure out if contact would be awkward for them...they all approached with open arms.
 

killerb

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My friend who is a high schooler told me that his mom once asked him if he was gay because he had been laying against another guy friend of ours while we were watching a movie. My immediate reaction was to burst into laughter because such an idea is so absurd to me, but I know other people have this weird notion that physical intimacy among guys equals sexual intimacy.

quote]

the sad thing is, almost everyone I know would think the same thing about your friend. it is crazy.
 

B_dxjnorto

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My friend who is a high schooler told me that his mom once asked him if he was gay because he had been laying against another guy friend of ours while we were watching a movie.
Yeah, that's just sad. It's like our culture's gaydar is set on ultra high sensitivity. It's a bit bizarre and sad.
 

BIGBULL29

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In France and the eastern world, men kiss on the lips as a greeting, is that wierd?

I never saw men kiss on the lips in France, except between gay men, father and son, brothers, and other male/male family relationships (the latter, a bit less common). That said, I've seen men kiss other men on the cheek as sign of friendship, which is very taboo in North America.

Alos, two male friends kissing each other on the cheek is more in some regions of France than others; for example, in Northeastern France, people are generally a little less affectionate in public from strong Germanic influence.

boynextdoorkpt said:
Would straight men do that here?

No, because that kind of affection outside is too taboo in the North America. You can't change a culture overnight.:biggrin1:
 

hb2

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In France and the eastern world, men kiss on the lips as a greeting, is that wierd? would straight men do that here?

No way! The obsessive and paranoid fear of looking gay is just too extreme in Anglo-Saxon countries. Therefore, no male would dare to kiss or often to even just hug or casually touch another guy. Anglo-based (U.S., U.K., etc.), Northern European, and Protestant societies are just more obsessed with homosexuality than most others, though maybe not necessarily more homophobic.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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I wonder how the inability or lack of ease that men have in United States culture -- let's be honest, perhaps Canada has less hang-ups? -- correlates with some of the more taboo expressions of male-male intimacy. Pardon me for thinking a little twisted here, but there is some general knowledge about the dehumanizing, painful experiences of prison rape. Often, the aggressors don't even acknowledge that they're participating in anal course, but rather that they're dominating or taking "ownership" over someone else in their caste system of sorts.

Margaret Cho also talks about how the things gays and lesbians do are so stigmatized in everyday life, that when they get around to fucking, they can do it with a frivolity and joie de vivre unlike what heterosexuals experience. (It's a thoughtful point, to say the least.)

In general terms, I imagine we wouldn't have so many religious/spiritual, knee-jerk disgust reactions toward gays if everyday people weren't so easily threatened by the contact. And why the hell is this the case? I just never understood it. I come from a cultural background that doesn't make a big deal of affection anyway, just because giving someone a hug or a kiss or an embrace doesn't mean that you want to bone 'em.