Male-Male Intimacy

No_Strings

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Around one or two months ago I kissed a man who wasn't my father for the first time in my life.

When I was very young (on the border of my conscious memory) when I saw my father, we would do the 'peck-and-touch-cheeks' kind of kiss when he would leave - much to the mortification of my yet barely-formed masculine side.

My partner and I were visiting friends for the weekend and upon arrival the simultaneous 'hi', 'how are you?' and 'nice to see you again' occured.
Afterwards the more intimate greetings followed and myself and said friend moved in for a hug(that alone was a recently new experience for me) and he pursed his lips slightly, leant forwards and I recipricated. We ended up doing the whole 'peck on the cheek' thing.

I didn't hesitate or withdraw and it never occured to me not to follow suit. In truth, I didn't even realise what I'd done until a few minutes afterwards and things had settled down a little. It didn't bother me in the slightest. It didn't feel odd, strange or uncomfortable in any way - for me, I think the comfort (or lack thereof) in doing such a thing is largely dependent on the atmosphere and situation in which it takes place.

When leaving our friend's house, I was very tired and actually didn't notice the 'kiss-goodbye' gesture until it was too late. I did feel a little foolish but know that he would understand.

Up until five months ago the only way I had ever greeted another man was by handshake.
 

D_Relentless Original

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Mixed signs/gestures are confusing, i work in a team of men and women, although i am gay and have a partner i am masculine etc ( not meaning to offend anyone). I feel strange in relation to how some of the guys are with me, masculine butch men and married talk with me intimately about masturbation, sex lives etc, some rub my back,massage my shoulders, lean into me when talking, brush specks of my suit and hug me, although i don't have a problem with it, they never do it with each other and i never do that with them just so my actions would not be misconstrude. i asked a collegue (female) do i give certain body language off that the lads feel its ok to do and she replied no u are just you but they don't do it with each other.The point i am trying to get at rather badly i know is, why would straight men do that with a gay guy, but me being a gay guy would not do that with a straight guy ?, sorry for rambling, maybe the problem is with me analysing to much.
 

Lex

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...

My partner and I were visiting friends for the weekend and upon arrival the simultaneous 'hi', 'how are you?' and 'nice to see you again' occured.
Afterwards the more intimate greetings followed and myself and said friend moved in for a hug(that alone was a recently new experience for me) and he pursed his lips slightly, leant forwards and I recipricated. We ended up doing the whole 'peck on the cheek' thing.

I know the feeling. I have always hugged my male friends, even when I thought I was straight. I now always hug and kiss (pecks on the lips) my gay male friends and straight/gay female friends. I have a few straight friends whom I also kiss (on the cheek) when I hug them.

To me, it is simply a sign of our mutual love for each other as friends and human beings. When you have friends who are close to you, I think you should express your feelings and nurture that relationship as much as you can.

Nothing gay about it--it just feels natural and right.
I didn't hesitate or withdraw and it never occured to me not to follow suit. In truth, I didn't even realise what I'd done until a few minutes afterwards and things had settled down a little. It didn't bother me in the slightest. It didn't feel odd, strange or uncomfortable in any way - for me, I think the comfort (or lack thereof) in doing such a thing is largely dependent on the atmosphere and situation in which it takes place.
Isn't it amazing to see how natural male-male intimacy can be and feel? I have often found certain contexts to be contraining and restrictive and I am constantly working on not allowing that to bother me as long as I am in a place where I am safe.
 

No_Strings

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I know the feeling. I have always hugged my male friends, even when I thought I was straight. I now always hug and kiss (pecks on the lips) my gay male friends and straight/gay female friends. I have a few straight friends whom I also kiss (on the cheek) when I hug them.

Interestingly enough, you, DC_DEEP and Matthew were (as far as I can recall) the first men whom I'd ever greeted with a hug.
I have, of course, hugged men before - family, friends, being supportive - but I'd never used it as a greeting; I've always been a 'brief-but-firm handshake' sort of guy, with men and women.

Unfortunately due to my age, a lot of my peers are/were the stereotypical teen and bodily contact is not readily pursued. It was wonderfully refreshing to be among company who not only realise that any one action won't give you a label, but that the labels themselves are irrelevant anyway.

Isn't it amazing to see how natural male-male intimacy can be and feel? I have often found certain contexts to be contraining and restrictive and I am constantly working on not allowing that to bother me as long as I am in a place where I am safe.

It is, and I'm glad I experienced it. Now that I've been broken in, I may become a serial back-patter. :biggrin:
 

horneyoldguy

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Mixed signs/gestures are confusing, i work in a team of men and women, although i am gay and have a partner i am masculine etc ( not meaning to offend anyone). I feel strange in relation to how some of the guys are with me, masculine butch men and married talk with me intimately about masturbation, sex lives etc, some rub my back,massage my shoulders, lean into me when talking, brush specks of my suit and hug me, although i don't have a problem with it, they never do it with each other and i never do that with them just so my actions would not be misconstrude. i asked a collegue (female) do i give certain body language off that the lads feel its ok to do and she replied no u are just you but they don't do it with each other.The point i am trying to get at rather badly i know is, why would straight men do that with a gay guy, but me being a gay guy would not do that with a straight guy ?, sorry for rambling, maybe the problem is with me analysing to much.

Maybe they just feel comfortable with you as a friend - nothing more.
 

gjorg

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In France and the eastern world, men kiss on the lips as a greeting, is that wierd? would straight men do that here?
I had this hot Puerto Rican dude do this when I got my car inspected in the barrio and called me papi. I thought gee I am so coming back here. My str8 bud said they do it all the time in Puerto rico. Guess where I booked vacation?:smile:
 

RoughPoint

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This whole coversation reminds me of how I felt about "business casual" dress in the 90's. Seemingly there were no clear rules. I was more comfortable in a suit.

As I've matured -- I'm 48-- I've loosened up considerably. I remember once failing a class in college because the (male) instructor hugged me in front of the whole class -- really hugged -- and subsequently, I was too embarrassed to return to class. Stupid, I know.

Today, I hug my male family members and good friends I haven't seen in a while. Admittedly, it is the shoulder hug with pelvises widely spaced, but I don't think anyone is really uncomfortable. It's just automatic.

One of my best friends for over 20 years now is gay, and my experience there is that, not surprisingly, the gays are a bit more touchy-feely. I don't have a problem with that. It's sort of a, "When in Rome ..." situation. I have certainly never felt anyone was "coming on" to me during these brief greetings.

I often feel that we Americans are like teenagers, and our European ancestors -- in my case, anyway -- are like older siblings. Eventually, I hope we lighten up a bit.

Hugging another man out of affection, kissing on the cheek because it's ritual, and even slapping another guy on the ass because you're on the same sports team do not make you gay. Having sex with another man or wanting to -- however you define that -- makes you gay. That is all.

(Boy I really ran on here. Sorry!)
 

Lex

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Interestingly enough, you, DC_DEEP and Matthew were (as far as I can recall) the first men whom I'd ever greeted with a hug.

Well, I am flattered to have been among the first! Welcome to the club of guys who show other guys affection without fear!

...It was wonderfully refreshing to be among company who not only realise that any one action won't give you a label, but that the labels themselves are irrelevant anyway.

I agree. It was great to see you-- someone I feel is very shy (and was also very jet-lagged) enjoy the quiet company of the gang. That was a great time and I hope we get to see you guys again soon.



It is, and I'm glad I experienced it. Now that I've been broken in, I may become a serial back-patter. :biggrin:

Careful... patting the back isn't that far off from SPANKING...
 

B_Hung Jon

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This may seem naive but after talking about this with a lot of girls and guys I think a person just has to go their own way and do what they think works for them. I'm an affectionate guy so I look for similar guys.
 

Meniscus

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B_The Greek Dude

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I often feel that we Americans are like teenagers, and our European ancestors -- in my case, anyway -- are like older siblings. Eventually, I hope we lighten up a bit.

Well, it's kind of funny that you said that; most parts of Europe have a very long history, while America will have been around for 232 years this 4th of July.
 

DC_DEEP

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Bliss, Lex, and No_Strings, you guys are the bestest!

I've told this story here before, but it's been a while, so here it is again: I had gotten to know Lex online for a couple of years, and we kept saying, "yeah, we live close, we should get together," but had never set anything definite. We had never met in person. My partner and I were at a club in Baltimore for a special event, and the club was packed. As we were about to leave, I heard someone across the room shout my name; I turned around, and there was tall handsome Lex! A random, chance meeting. We immediately engaged in a crushing bear-hug, and the rest is history. We've been very close since then.

With Bliss, it's a similar story, except we first met when I invited her to my home. She's been here a few times since, and I don't think she really realizes just how much I have grown to love her.

No_Strings, the only reason you got that treatment when you showed up here was because you had told me how nervous you were, and I just wanted to let you know that you were unconditionally welcomed to my home. I knew it would most likely be a little uncomfortable for you at first, but I also knew that it would set the tone for your visit. You are family here.

I was raised in a large, loving, physically demonstrative family. Hugs all around are the norm, and kisses are not uncommon. When I was growing up, the friend of any member of the family was a friend of the family. Frequently, if one of my brother's friends came to see him, and he wasn't home, that friend would hang out with me; my sister's friends would come by when she wasn't home, just to spend time with Mom. I still have a very large circle of friends, and most of those friendships go back as far as 1970, in middle school. Gay or straight, male or female, all of us greet with hugs at a mimimum, and many with a kiss.

Now, back to the original topic (sorry for the dissertation). I had one friend in my college undergraduate years, with whom I became very intimate. I was one year ahead of him in the same field of study, and we pledged the same fraternity. He was one of those 100% straight guys, but we spent a great deal of time together, sometimes slept together, and sometimes at school, we walked around "European-style," arms around each other's shoulders when we talked. There was never anything sexual between us, and I was best man at his wedding. Big surprise, his fiancee didn't like me. A couple of months before their wedding, she pulled me aside and hissed, "There will NOT be a bachelor party." There wasn't. A couple of months after they married, she pulled me aside and hissed, "I don't like you spending so much time with Glen." So I told him, "I've never had a friend like you before, and doubt I ever will again, but I'm not going to be the source of any marital problems for you." And we mostly parted ways.
 

Meniscus

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You didn't play football in school, did you? Probably weren't in a fraternity either, were you?

Right on both counts. Are you saying that football players and fraternity brothers do still, to this day, engage in the sort of casual, non-sexual physical intimacy of the sort depicted in the At Ease photos? I have heard rumors of such behavior, but I always suspected that those stories were based on gay male fantasies about what goes on in male-only spaces from which we are mostly excluded.

One certainly doesn't see such behavior these days, at least not in public, or in the media. If people were to witness such behavior among men, I expect they'd read it as "gay." It seems more plausible that the behavior simply isn't happening than to think that's it's being deliberately and cleverly hidden, although I'd be delighted to be wrong. If it is happening, I imagine there must be a fairly complex set of unwritten rules governing such expressions in order to preclude any perception of gayness.
 

Meniscus

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...I had one friend in my college undergraduate years, with whom I became very intimate...Big surprise, his fiancee didn't like me...A couple of months after they married, she pulled me aside and hissed, "I don't like you spending so much time with Glen." So I told him, "I've never had a friend like you before, and doubt I ever will again, but I'm not going to be the source of any marital problems for you." And we mostly parted ways.

That's a very sad ending to that friendship, although I probably would have done the same thing in your shoes.

I have seen this before. When a man's friends get married, the friendships may not survive; if it does, it is generally never the same again. When men get married, their wives (and eventually) become their priority--as it should be--but sometimes so much so that they lose their other friends. Is this true for women as well? My observation is that women's friendships seem less affected when one of them gets married, but I'm not sure of that.
 

DC_DEEP

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That's a very sad ending to that friendship, although I probably would have done the same thing in your shoes.

I have seen this before. When a man's friends get married, the friendships may not survive; if it does, it is generally never the same again. When men get married, their wives (and eventually) become their priority--as it should be--but sometimes so much so that they lose their other friends. Is this true for women as well? My observation is that women's friendships seem less affected when one of them gets married, but I'm not sure of that.
Well, with most of my friends, male or female, when they marry, the spouse becomes part of our big circle of friends. It vaguely reminds me of the old cliche, "You aren't losing a son, you're gaining a daughter-in-law." Of course one's partner should be his or her primary focus, but that's not mutually exclusive with maintaining old friendships. I realized that when they married, he would spend less time with me (before they married, his apartment was about halfway between the school and my apartment.) She didn't want him to spend any time with me. A few years later, I think she realized what she had done, and tried to patch things up. I was cordial, but told her, and him, that we couldn't roll back the clock. You can't force a friendship. The natural flow had been severed, and I didn't think it could be repaired.

I did some contract work for them for a couple of years after that, but never got back to the original, close bond that was there before.
 

MovingForward

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Hmm, I have straight friends and sometime when we are drinking I will put my arm around their waist and stand next to them.

They never seem to mind.
 

B_Nick4444

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have had guys in my rugby club participate in the after-practice meetings by standing there, arms around each other, attentively listening to what was being said, for the entire duration

BTW, NONE of the boxers I've known would ever do that, would be my guess

Right on both counts. Are you saying that football players and fraternity brothers do still, to this day, engage in the sort of casual, non-sexual physical intimacy of the sort depicted in the At Ease photos? I have heard rumors of such behavior, but I always suspected that those stories were based on gay male fantasies about what goes on in male-only spaces from which we are mostly excluded.

One certainly doesn't see such behavior these days, at least not in public, or in the media. If people were to witness such behavior among men, I expect they'd read it as "gay." It seems more plausible that the behavior simply isn't happening than to think that's it's being deliberately and cleverly hidden, although I'd be delighted to be wrong. If it is happening, I imagine there must be a fairly complex set of unwritten rules governing such expressions in order to preclude any perception of gayness.