Manchester next

[malakos]

i'd argue paul laid out the doctrine... which is why peter lost and we're not jewish

That isn't the picture portrayed in Acts.

 

[798686]

What is there to prove? It's self-evident. The Apostles already had the doctrine before the NT was written, which they used to instruct people in the faith. That's Tradition.

Eh?

They taught that all of the Word of God (ie: OT scripture) was inspired, and worthy for instruction. What has tradition got to do with it? Only tradition based on scripture is valid from a Biblical perspective.

The Roman Catholic church gave up its claim to legitimacy when it adopted practises that were already warned against in scripture. Tradition doesn't allow you to totally contradict and contravine scripture.

I do realise we're heading a bit off topic tho.

 

[marinera]

'Self-evident' is the kind of things that when you read in a textbook think makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[TexanStar]

I agree. Where did I say we could judge who will and won't go?

All I'm saying is he stated that whoever broke the smallest of the commandments (and yes - 'and taught others to do so) would not get into the kingdom of heaven. This shows he considered the Commandments still in force.

What about this do you disagree with?!

He doesn't say they won't get into heaven. That's literally not in the quote in any version of the bible I can find. You're drawing conclusions that aren't there in the literal text.

He's considering the advice in the commandments and how breaking them is received, but it's not directly determining if someone is going or not. It would contradict his teachings about repentance and forgiveness that are more central to the new Testament.

 

[malakos]

What is there to prove? It's obvious if you think for just a second about the first couple decades of Church history. The Apostles already had the doctrine before the NT was written, which they used to instruct people in the faith. That's Tradition.

*sigh* Everyone caught the original version of that post before I edited it a minute later. This is better phrased.

 

[798686]

He doesn't say they won't get into heaven. That's literally not in the quote in any version of the bible I can find. You're drawing conclusions that aren't there in the literal text.

He's considering the advice in the commandments and how breaking them is received, but it's not directly determining if someone is going or not. It would contradict his teachings about repentance and forgiveness that are more central to the new Testament.

What part of 'whoever breaks the smallest of the commandments wont enter the Kingdom of Heaven' leads you to believe he's not saying they won't be barred?!

You're reading what you want into it.

I agree that it's dependent on forgiveness etc - and basically, that if you break the commandments, and didn't have his sacrifice, you'd be finished. However, we do, so we're not.

However - he is also saying that the Commandments are very much in force.

 

[deleted37010]

That isn't the picture portrayed in Acts.

agreed!
nobody said pauline theology didn't contradict... acts and also the epistle of james (specifically)... just that pauline theology won and predominates modern christian thought

 

[Drifterwood]

Do you guys even know the history of Christianity? St Paul created it and the minimum 39 gospels were rewritten over and over through a series of heretical controversies until you ended up with what some of you want to take as gospel in the 4th Century.

 

[malakos]

Do you guys even know the history of Christianity? St Paul created it and the minimum 39 gospels were rewritten over and over through a series of heretical controversies until you ended up with what some of you want to take as gospel in the 4th Century.

Please tell me you're trolling.

 

[marinera]

You go to heaven whatever you did, you just have to tell the priest some gossip before you die. Kinda like psychoanalysis, you know.

 

[malakos]

agreed!
nobody said pauline theology didn't contradict... acts and also the epistle of james (specifically)... just that pauline theology won and predominates modern christian thought

One of the matters that Acts of the Apostles covers is the history of the Pauline-Petrine conflict and how the parties related to each other and viewed each other and what resolution was arrived at. According to Acts the two parties were largely reconciled and saw each other as holding the same faith. So the contention that Paul's doctrine was ultimately a break from Peter's contradicts any perspective that could be claimed to be derived from the NT.

 

[deleted37010]

in the last 100 years... we've discovered more archaeological artifacts/source texts to cause us to question/re-evaluate our early church history and original theology than at any other time

 

[Chrysippus]

better to let God judge

Yes, especially since you've been waiting to hear back from him on this one--and on other matters. Reminds me of that nauseating statement, 'Let God be God', that platitudinous preachers were fond of saying awhile back.

Kinda makes me wonder about how authoritative scripture is..or if the king of the universe even gives a shit about the religious squabbles of fools on single, insignificant planet in the one galaxy.

 

[TexanStar]

i adore you... and think i'd like to argue... LOL
but ONLY that
the whole reason for religion is the certainty of who is and isn't going to heaven
christianity is an exclusive heaven... only for the saved... well, unless you're a universalist

Yes, but the whole thing is that it's not for us to say who's saved and who isn't.

Don't take my word for it: http://www.xt3.com/library/view.php?id=9728 It's like the official stance of the church. Yes, the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, but it's JESUS. The door is left open that Jesus has the power to bring people into Heaven basically through miracle. People who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven. People who never believed in any of it can get into heaven. People who've broken commandments can get into Heaven.

That doesn't mean that someone WILL get into Heaven, it just means that it's in the realm of possibility and that for particularly for someone who's living their life in accordance with the heart of Christ's teachings, they can potentially basically get saved on the way out of their earthly bodies.

While people within the Church do make a hobby of speculating about who's going to Heaven and who isn't, from the standpoint of the actual teachings, none of them know. There's not a single person on Earth who can say who is or who isn't going to Heaven. It's beyond our capacity to judge and come to 100% accurate conclusions.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

Kinda makes me wonder about how authoritative scripture is..or if the king of the universe even gives a shit about the religious squabbles of fools on single, insignificant planet in the one galaxy.

Shhhhh.

 

[marinera]

So what's the point in having the bible? Jesus was just trolling?

Paganism was more fun.

 

[deleted37010]

One of the matters that Acts of the Apostles covers is the history of the Pauline-Petrine conflict and how the parties related to each other and viewed each other and what resolution was arrived at. According to Acts the two parties were largely reconciled and saw each other as holding the same faith. So the contention that Paul's doctrine was ultimately a break from Peter's contradicts any perspective that could be claimed to be derived from the NT.

you just dismissed the entire Tübingen school, which held that Paul was utterly opposed to the disciples

 

[798686]

Yes, especially since you've been waiting to hear back from him on this one--and on other matters. Reminds me of that nauseating statement, 'Let God be God', that platitudinous preachers were fond of saying awhile back.

Kinda makes me wonder about how authoritative scripture is..or if the king of the universe even gives a shit about the religious squabbles of fools on single, insignificant planet in the one galaxy.

Oh, don't talk bollocks.

I've been waiting to hear back from him on this one, have I?!!

What I said was well-considered - unless you advocate taking matters into our own hands, a la suicide bombers, or praying before invading Iraq, a la George Bush?!!

Lunatic.

 

[798686]

You go to heaven whatever you did, you just have to tell the priest some gossip before you die. Kinda like psychoanalysis, you know.

OOh, you cynic haha.

 

[798686]

While people within the Church do make a hobby of speculating about who's going to Heaven and who isn't, from the standpoint of the actual teachings, none of them know. There's not a single person on Earth who can say who is or who isn't going to Heaven. It's beyond our capacity to judge and come to 100% accurate conclusions.

I'd agree with this.