Manchester next

[deleted37010]

This is not a useful analogy.

The Crusades took place in the High Middle Ages. Islamic State is taking place now. The wrongs and rights of the Crusades are a matter for historic essays. The wrongs and rights of ISIS are for us today.

Sir Edmund Allenby's famous quote while marching into Palestine
"The Crusades have ended now!".

 

[Klingsor]

I don't quite understand some of the either/or thinking here: either the terrorist or Western governments are to blame.

I would say, this terrorist (or any other) is to blame for his horrific actions. But Western governments are to blame for interventionist policies that foster resentment and make it easier to recruit still more people to perform such atrocities.

So we should strike back against terrorists, by all means, while at same trying not to help create new ones. Not always an easy balance.

 

[dandelion]

This is not a useful analogy.

The Crusades took place in the High Middle Ages. Islamic State is taking place now. The wrongs and rights of the Crusades are a matter for historic essays. The wrongs and rights of ISIS are for us today.

No. The names may have changed a little, but I read a history book recently arguing that the crusades are still going right now. Oddly, it was on the table in a hospital waiting room, amazing what services the NHS provides. It is one long continuum of we kill them so they kill us. And back . and forth. That sort of cycle can only be broken if politicians are willing to make peace. Did anyone mention Corbyn and Major negotiating for us with the IRA? Just the sort of person we need to lead the Uk right now.

 

[marinera]

I don't quite understand some of the either/or thinking here: either the terrorist or Western governments are to blame.
....

I missed anyone saying terrorists are not to blame?

 

[deleted37010]

Sir Edmund Allenby's famous quote while marching into Palestine
"The Crusades have ended now!".

No. The names may have changed a little, but I read a history book recently arguing that the crusades are still going right now. Oddly, it was on the table in a hospital waiting room, amazing what services the NHS provides. It is one long continuum of we kill them so they kill us. And back . and forth. That sort of cycle can only be broken if politicians are willing to make peace. Did anyone mention Corbyn and Major negotiating for us with the IRA? Just the sort of person we need to lead the Uk right now.

this directly calls into contrast the fables of sir walter scott... which became the "common knowledge" cited today

 

[marinera]

Old news, and not something I find in the least improbable.

I guess the point is that many here are saying Islam (the most spread religion in the world) is violence, whilst not realizing that for most of the world violence comes foremostly from the west. It Adds to this cognitive dissonance the fact that when the poll was done the USA' president was a Nobel prize for pesce. Guess If the poll was done today?

 

[deleted37010]

I guess the point is that many here are saying Islam (the most spread religion in the world) is violence, whilst not realizing that for most of the world violence comes foremostly from the west. It Adds to this cognitive dissonance the fact that when the poll was done the USA' president was a Nobel prize for pesce. Guess If the poll was done today?

agree

 

[deleted37010]

bush declared a crusade after 9/11

This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While

 

[marinera]

...Christians don't go to war in the name of their religion any more and haven't for a long time...

I already posted about Rwanda, but If you want another example, anti-balaka in central Africa killed muslims Who didn't convert to christianity and ate them. In 2013.

 

[marinera]

It is Just so silly to have to demonstrate that you Can have extremist muslims ad well Christians or hebrews at any time: those religions are actually different branches of the same religion. In Europe some centuries ago parents of a Christian sect used to kill theirs babies right After baptism, so they would go to Heaven for sure. Religion is great to manipolate people doing the most horrible things.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

I already posted about Rwanda, but If you want another example, anti-balaka in central Africa killed muslims Who didn't convert to christianity and ate them. In 2013.

Lot of context in the CAR, including the overthrow of the Christian-led government by Séléka, a Muslim rebel group.
Anti-balaka says it has always fought defensively, a justification that I don't doubt Muslim CAR groups also claim.
I don't know who's right or wrong, or more right or more wrong, but this does seem a very, very particular situation with few implications valid beyond the borders of the CAR.

I don't understand the Rwanda reference. Were there significant religious differences between the Tutsis and the Hutus? It was my understanding that there weren't.

 

[deleted37010]

the west/europe (largely synonomous with christianity) partitioned the middle east and africa.. arguable this was experienced as another christian crusade (by those in the sphere of influence of the ottoman empire, especially)
this happened at the end of world war I... it's not ancient history... it's modern history... that impact is remembered today and stretches into the lives of muslim people from algeria to tripoli to cairo, medina, mecca, and all the way to baghdad

 

[coopturn]

Christian Soldiers
The lynching and torture of blacks in the Jim Crow South weren’t just acts of racism. They were religious rituals.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ks_and_christianity_the_terror_inflicted.html

These lynchings weren’t just vigilante punishments or, as the Equal Justice Initiative notes, “celebratory acts of racial control and domination.” They were rituals. And specifically, they were rituals of Southern evangelicalism and its then-dogma of purity, literalism, and white supremacy. “Christianity was the primary lens through which most southerners conceptualized and made sense of suffering and death of any sort,” writes historian Amy Louise Wood in Lynching and Spectacle: Witnessing Racial Violence in America, 1890–1940. “It would be inconceivable that they could inflict pain and torment on the bodies of black men without imagining that violence as a religious act, laden with Christian symbolism and significance.”

“It is exceedingly doubtful if lynching could possibly exist under any other religion than Christianity,” wrote NAACP leader Walter White in 1929, “No person who is familiar with the Bible-beating, acrobatic, fanatical preachers of hell-fire in the South, and who has seen the orgies of emotion created by them, can doubt for a moment that dangerous passions are released which contribute to emotional instability and play a part in lynching.”

And yet the leaders of the Civil Rights movement which saw an end to Jim Crow were largely Christian ministers.

 

[StormfrontFL]

Sure, it's a false equivalence and off topic, but happy to discuss if that's what you'd like. Perhaps start another thread, though.

I forgot I'm conversing with someone who sees things in simple terms....

You seem to want to portray all followers of Islam in a negative light. If we followed your rule then we must also show all followers of other religions in the same way. The IRA was responsible for many tragedies but were there actions indicative of all Christians? White supremacists call themselves Christian but are their actions such?

Is denigrating their religion a way to gain converts or support?

Instead of trashing the religion why not just condemn those who bastardize it? Throughout the ages religion has been used to justify atrocities. These terror attacks are just another way.

 

[StormfrontFL]

And yet the leaders of the Civil Rights movement which saw an end to Jim Crow were largely Christian ministers.

So there are good ones just as there are bad ones. Same with Muslims. They aren't all lumped together.

 

[coopturn]

I forgot I'm conversing with someone who sees things in simple terms....

You seem to want to portray all followers of Islam in a negative light. If we followed your rule then we must also show all followers of other religions in the same way. The IRA was responsible for many tragedies but were there actions indicative of all Christians? White supremacists call themselves Christian but are their actions such?

Is denigrating their religion a way to gain converts or support?

Instead of trashing the religion why not just condemn those who bastardize it? Throughout the ages religion has been used to justify atrocities. These terror attacks are just another way.

Your projecting is tiresome.

I have not portrayed "followers of Islam in a negative light." In fact, in this thread I posted that I don't deny that the majority of Muslims aren't about committing acts of violence or terror. At the same time, however, I acknowledged that more than any other religion today, Islam has a disproportionate share of followers committing such acts in the name of their religion. You seem to be in denial of this, which is exacerbated by your false equivalences with the Klan and now the IRA. The IRA did not commit violence in the name of Christianity and they were condemned by the leadership of the RCC and the Pope.

 

[coopturn]

So there are good ones just as there are bad ones. Same with Muslims. They aren't all lumped together.

Except that Islam has a disproportionately larger share of alleged followers committing acts of violence and terror.

 

[deleted37010]

Your projecting is tiresome.

presuming projection seems tiresome

 

[StormfrontFL]

Your projecting is tiresome.

I have not portrayed "followers of Islam in a negative light." In fact, in this thread I posted that I don't deny that the majority of Muslims aren't about committing acts of violence or terror. At the same time, however, I acknowledged that more than any other religion today, Islam has a disproportionate share of followers committing such acts in the name of their religion. You seem to be in denial of this, which is exacerbated by your false equivalences with the Klan and now the IRA. The IRA did not commit violence in the name of Christianity and they were condemned by the leadership of the RCC and the Pope.

And the terrorists have been condemned(just not to your satisfaction).

"Religion of peace"? Not hard to read your disdain in that comment.

 

[StormfrontFL]

Except that Islam has a disproportionately larger share of alleged followers committing acts of violence and terror.

Got any numbers to back up that statement?
Compare the number of Muslims and the number of terrorists to the number of Christians and the number of those who committed unChristian acts. Prove what you say.