Marines piss on dead bodies

shyuncutcock88

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Well the romans have done the same. To the point, the republic itself has used and destroyed millions of lives. For what? For oil. Now back to the topic, well i m not shocked at all. I don't see why milions of ppl are 'shocked' at the american troops. I'm sure their are thousands of barbaric acts committed from us millitary. No big deal..yea a court martial okay, cased closed.
 

FuzzyKen

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I am saddened by the actions of a few. Understanding psychology I do understand the reasons for their actions, at the same time the act is unfortunately evidence of a breakdown in the chain of command and the rules established by all military branches.
What is not significant to me is the act of pissing on some dead enemies, but the fact that all of the men involved in this incident knew before they did this that it was against all rules of war and the regulations that they as soldiers must adhere to.

- - - -

There is one other thing. . . . . I am not 100% certain that the people doing this were our people. If you as an enemy wanted to incite people to support your idiotic viewpoints you "fake" this with your own men and then post it making it look like Americans doing the acts. This type of act is particularly incendiary with muslim extremists and most soldiers know this. This act in fact would endanger the lives of other American Soldiers for a few moments of pleasure. This one fact makes me doubt the authenticity of what was done. Anything can be faked and posting "propaganda" of this kind of nature on a public video site is nothing new.

- - - - - -

In spite of my understanding of the feelings towards men who are viewed by U.S. Soldiers as barbarians far more than an enemy, the breakdown of military command structure and rules cannot take place because emotion or "retaliation" is counterproductive in fact. This is why the rules were put in and why they exist.

If this video is authentic and it is proven authentic with identification of the soldiers in question all involved should be prosecuted under U.C.M.J. or other applicable courts to the fullest extent that military law allows.

Lack of control and command structure breeds an atmosphere of total societal breakdown and unwritten permission for other atrocities to take place. Allow pissing on men and you can under the right circumstances have this lead to other crimes.
 
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dandelion

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but those people arent marines.
And marines trained to kill without a second thought will be more likely to worry about pissing on someone than the ordinary public?

I think this situation shows a breakdown in leadership within the military.
Yes, but I'd predict this will go the same way as that prison where US soldiers were humiliating prisoners: the troopers may get punished but the secretary of state for defence will not and nor will anyone responsible for training the soldiers or giving them inadequate instructions. Probably because the soldiers are pretty much the way they wanted them to be.

You can't claim and win the high ground of liberators when your men act like scum.
But you also should not then blame the soldiers for reacting like soldiers. Which is going to happen, dont you think?

This act in fact would endanger the lives of other American Soldiers for a few moments of pleasure. This one fact makes me doubt the authenticity of what was done.
Yes, it would be a clever thing to fake, but it might also be possible someone disgusted with the film decided the only thing to do was leak it to stop it. Soldiers seem to be in the habit of photographing their pranks.

In spite of my understanding of the feelings towards men who are viewed by U.S. Soldiers as barbarians far more than an enemy, the breakdown of military command structure and rules cannot take place because emotion or "retaliation" is counterproductive in fact. This is why the rules were put in and why they exist.
But that can only mean a contradiction at the heart of the orders and training. If I respect my enemy as much as the soldier standing next to me, why should I shoot the 'enemy' instead of the soldier next to me? So presumably soldiers are trained to hate their enemy, and the nastier things they can do to them the better. Then, you want to order the soldiers not to do some of those nasty things you just trained them to do. The whole idea of military training is to get men in the right state to do what they would not do in polite society. Then they get blamed for it. If soldiers have committed an atrocity, it isnt the soldiers who are to blame.
 

ManlyBanisters

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Shocked - I'm not shocked, I think it probably happens all the time. It's not right, I don't condone it from anyone, in any situation, but when it comes to squadies (marines, whatever) what the fuck do you expect? They're brutalised - they act brutally - it is, for the most part, what they are for. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

What they did wrong, within their own morality, is get caught - they should expect to be made an example of, but if any of us outsiders think that that will mean no enemy corpse gets pissed on ever again, well, that's being somewhat naive.
 

Drifterwood

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But you also should not then blame the soldiers for reacting like soldiers. Which is going to happen, dont you think?

Professional soldiers know exactly how to behave. These men have broken their own rules, they will pay the price and so will others for their actions. Professional soldiers are not mindless morons.
 
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554279

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I did 20+, what these guys did was fucking amateur hour. It wasn't from battle fatigue, PTSD or anything other than piss poor discipline that caused them to do this.

The worse part is they will get some form of non-judicial punishment and discharged (hopefully dishonorably); but six months from now some US Marine, Soldier, Brit or Aussie Soldier or operative will fall foul and Taliban will want to send a message because of these fucking idiots.

One of the things they teach every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine is what are Lawful Orders and what are War crimes. Anything abuse, misuse or maltreatment other than collecting, processing and interment of human remains can be construed as a War Crime.

It's one thing to be stupid, and do something like this, you're a whole new level of stupid to commemorate the moment on film and put it on Youtube.
 

B_thickjohnny

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Shocked - I'm not shocked, I think it probably happens all the time. It's not right, I don't condone it from anyone, in any situation, but when it comes to squadies (marines, whatever) what the fuck do you expect? They're brutalised - they act brutally - it is, for the most part, what they are for. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

What they did wrong, within their own morality, is get caught - they should expect to be made an example of, but if any of us outsiders think that that will mean no enemy corpse gets pissed on ever again, well, that's being somewhat naive.

I agree 100%

But more importantly: who was the idiot who video'd this and why would those Marines allow themselves to be video'd knowing full well that the internet spares no one! The minute I saw the camera come out I would have walked away.
 

Calboner

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The people I know truly don't realize their hypocrisy when they express outrage when our enemies behave the same way. They have this attitude that the whole planet belongs to us and God decreed the americans are free to do as we please when dealing with the planet and its inhabitants. Politicians pander to this. Just listen to the amazing things the Republican candidates say at the debates.
:yup: Yes; and this form of moral myopia or childishness is dressed up as a political position under the name of "American exceptionalism."
 

wappingite

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I agree with 6inchcock completely, this is poor training and discipline and will come back to haunt the US and its allies.

Last I checked, there are rules to war including definitions of war crimes as defined by the Geneva conventions. The US needs to be completely above reproach in its positon in these matters based on the moral high ground it's advocating.

It may be difficult for those within the US to understand as most Americans don't get much exposure or care about international perspective, but much of the solidarity and sympathy as a result of 9/11 has been tarnished or lost by actions like this, Abu Graib prison, Guantanamo Bay, etc. To many, even in Europe, the US looks more like the bad guy due to the lack of control or oversight. It's not just a war, it's a PR battle to win hearts and minds over to be on the side of the US in order to help wipe out threats like terrorism brought on by the Taliban. This just doesn't help achieve that.
 

dandelion

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One of the things they teach every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine is what are Lawful Orders and what are War crimes. Anything abuse, misuse or maltreatment other than collecting, processing and interment of human remains can be construed as a War Crime.
Really? Is that why the US has refused to ratify whichever treaty it is which would allow US leaders to be indicted for war crimes in international courts? I can only think of one reason for refusing to agree such a treaty, and it is that you expect to break it. Just exactly what would happen to US marines who went about in Iraq arguing the entire war was illegal? I'm not clear exactly the grounds for being in Afghanistan, either. So every single US soldier if they truly have been taught what you claim should have refused to go. They didnt, they followed orders without thinking. So maybe this time they didnt think either but got on with both metaphoricaly and literaly pissing on the natives.

But more importantly: who was the idiot who video'd this and why would those Marines allow themselves to be video'd knowing full well that the internet spares no one! The minute I saw the camera come out I would have walked away.
Well...that might lead one to think this kind of behaviour is quite usual.
 

1kmb1

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And marines trained to kill without a second thought will be more likely to worry about pissing on someone than the ordinary public?

marines are trained to conduct themselves in a certain manner. your average civilian is not, so taking a civilians reaction and using it to say thats how a marine would "normally" act is not accurate.

so yes, a marine would be more likely to worry about pissing on someone, because they would worry about how it would reflect on the Corps.

im saying this is more likely a symptom of a 6 month tour than the pervasive sentiment that this is acceptable, at least among marines.
 
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Really? Is that why the US has refused to ratify whichever treaty it is which would allow US leaders to be indicted for war crimes in international courts? I can only think of one reason for refusing to agree such a treaty, and it is that you expect to break it. Just exactly what would happen to US marines who went about in Iraq arguing the entire war was illegal? I'm not clear exactly the grounds for being in Afghanistan, either. So every single US soldier if they truly have been taught what you claim should have refused to go. They didnt, they followed orders without thinking. So maybe this time they didnt think either but got on with both metaphoricaly and literaly pissing on the natives.

Well...that might lead one to think this kind of behavior is quite usual.

I cannot speak to what conventions were or were not ratified by my government; I know that they have signed some and others they have selectivity not. I am only stating on how and what we were trained in.

You also don't understand all of the subject matter at hand, as there were no US Marines (to my knowledge) that refused to go to Afghanistan, they were US Army Soldiers.

No US Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine can refuse to go, whether you agree or disagree to a conflict or deployment. If you question your governments motives you don't enlist (there is no draft or conscription). You swear an oath and you follow it or suffer the consequences.

I know you have a hard on for the US involvement so keep it out of my comments. Agree to disagree and then have a nice day.
 
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surto

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very interesting thread, to hear actual soldiers and marines writing here. I was of course disgusted but I initially pitied them on how war would make one do such dishonorable things, but then I thought that some of them might have had that predilection before joining the army.

It's very sad if you think that the victims where once little nippers and all the effort it took and the care for them to grow up, sad about he perpetrators too, sad about what human beings are capable of doing to others...and then a tsunami comes or a hurricane and blows us all away and shows how insignificant we are and how incredibly misguided to be treating the earth and each other as we do.
 
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Really? Is that why the US has refused to ratify whichever treaty it is which would allow US leaders to be indicted for war crimes in international courts? I can only think of one reason for refusing to agree such a treaty, and it is that you expect to break it. Just exactly what would happen to US marines who went about in Iraq arguing the entire war was illegal? I'm not clear exactly the grounds for being in Afghanistan, either. So every single US soldier if they truly have been taught what you claim should have refused to go. They didnt, they followed orders without thinking. So maybe this time they didnt think either but got on with both metaphoricaly and literaly pissing on the natives.

Well...that might lead one to think this kind of behaviour is quite usual.


Without reciting a bunch of regs and assorted bullshit, this link talks to some of the mandatory training and guidance for Law of War type training.

Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC)
 

arkfarmbear

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I think it is an outrage that the average American is not aware that international courts have issued arrest warrants for Bush, Cheney and other members of their regime for horrific war crimes.
Our media screams from the highest hill about other nations harboring war criminals when we are the worst offender.
We cheer when our military violates the concept of "sovereign nation" whenever we wish but we organize international coalitions to punish others when they do the same wiithout our approval.
I would feel better if our leaders were honest and admitted what most Americans feel - we are the biggest, richest, toughest guys on the planet and that entitles us to do anything we want. If you don't like it, tough shit. This doesn't square with our claims to be a nation devoted to following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 
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I think it is an outrage that the average American is not aware that international courts have issued arrest warrants for Bush, Cheney and other members of their regime for horrific war crimes.
Our media screams from the highest hill about other nations harboring war criminals when we are the worst offender.
We cheer when our military violates the concept of "sovereign nation" whenever we wish but we organize international coalitions to punish others when they do the same wiithout our approval.
I would feel better if our leaders were honest and admitted what most Americans feel - we are the biggest, richest, toughest guys on the planet and that entitles us to do anything we want. If you don't like it, tough shit. This doesn't square with our claims to be a nation devoted to following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I think that Bush, Cheney and Rummi are complicit assholes, but no arrest warrants have been issued (they were requested, but not issued).
 
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Mr Ed in Mass

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I love the armchair generals here who don't know shit about combat ,but they have all the answers.Most of you bozos couldn't spend a day in their boots.Of those who served,thank you,but you can spend 50 years in the service and if you weren't in combat,you don't have a clue.I can tell you horror stories,but to you, they are just that ,stories.I know why it happened, you'll NEVER know
Ask you fathers and grandfathers who were in combat { I don't give a shit what country they served,} they know!
I think that it's unfortunate that this came to light,but to ruin their life forever is not the answer.We need the enemy to be scared shitless of us.You're not going to impress them by being nice to them. I know it's a lot to ask,but remember 9/11?