Marx and Lenin were right!!!

maxcok

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Despite the "shit" I got for starting this thread is sure has led to interesting conversation. Story time.... there are two men, same age, same resources, same wealth - they each have 100 potatoes in the month of March or so. One consumes half the potatoes and plants and tends the rest, planning for a fall harvest, the other eats all of the potatoes, plans nothing and spends his time sun bathing and swimming in the local water hole. Fall arrives, the first guy reaps his harvest and has plenty to eat for the winter months and the other shows up at his door demanding half of his potatoes so he can survive the winter. Which of the two is "creating wealth" and which of the two is "destroying wealth?" Remember, both of them started with the same "wealth" in March...... BTW most rich people have created nothing and have only "gamed" the system - Senator Reid comes to mind.... Even Bill Gates had a lot of help as his mother was on the Board of United Way with the CEO of IBM. The father of John Kennedy made most of his money during Prohibition trading illegal alcohol. Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
'Storytime' is great. I just love fables and fairy tales: The Ant and the Grasshopper

Such a simplistic way to understand a complex world and solve all our problems.

The example was two people starting with the same "wealth" at one point in history Brazil and the US had the same GDP - what happened, who were things different. Another example is the China and India both had more wealth per capita than the US or any other country at one point in history - what happened, how did things turn out differently?
Maybe they should have read more fables and fairy tales.
 

BF2K

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so give me an example that is more appropriate maxcock!! Your Ant story seems to support what I said. These are not just fairy tales - there are reasons why cultures (not races) in the Northern Hemisphere led to organization, planning, planting, harvesting and a rejection of the lazy and non-productive (decision not to work, not inability to work). Cultures in warmer climates had plenty to eat and harvest and didn't have to plan, organize and survive the cold Winter season. This created CULTURAL differences that led to wealth creation in Countries far from the Equator. The more we understand the roots of wealth creation, the more we as a human race will be able to deal with inequality creating opportunities rather than dependance.
 

B_VinylBoy

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so give me an example that is more appropriate maxcock!! Your Ant story seems to support what I said. These are not just fairy tales - there are reasons why cultures (not races) in the Northern Hemisphere led to organization, planning, planting, harvesting and a rejection of the lazy and non-productive (decision not to work, not inability to work). Cultures in warmer climates had plenty to eat and harvest and didn't have to plan, organize and survive the cold Winter season. This created CULTURAL differences that led to wealth creation in Countries far from the Equator. The more we understand the roots of wealth creation, the more we as a human race will be able to deal with inequality creating opportunities rather than dependance.

If you actually looked into it you'd see that it has nothing to do with who has a (D) or who has an (R) next to their name, nor can you properly weigh it based on some convoluted political belief about what it means to work hard either. Centuries upon centuries of financial & societal inequality cannot be pinpointed based on locality to the equator. Your lack of historical knowledge when it comes to countries in the southern hemisphere does not equal any evidence to explain why some countries are richer than others.
 
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Bbucko

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If you actually looked into it you'd see that it has nothing to do with who has a (D) or who has an (R) next to their name, nor can you properly weigh it based on some convoluted political belief about what it means to work hard either. Centuries upon centuries of financial & societal inequality cannot be pinpointed based on locality to the equator. Your lack of historical knowledge when it comes to countries in the southern hemisphere does not equal any evidence to explain why some countries are richer than others.

Taiwan is simply one of the more obvious choices of a tropical country with a hard work ethic and deeply-entrenched capitalism; or is that the handiwork of European Imperialists bent on carving out a niche like Singapore and Hong Kong?

And just for shits and giggles, I'll toss in the fact that civilization as we know it is a hybrid of Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley and (just a nod to) the Levant as the cradle of monotheism. Greece and Rome are both known for their harsh winters as well, no?
 

BF2K

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Just a reminder Bucko, Taiwan was invaded by the Chinese in 1949, Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Indus Valley had to organize agriculture around annual flooding, heavy rains and subsequent dry periods when it was impossible to grow anything. The Greeks and the Romans basically had to organize armies to steal what they couldn't produce on their own. Hong Kong, or Singapore wouldn't exist if the British hadn't colonized the area to set up trading posts. It's not just about seasons, mostly about scarce resources.
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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vince

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so give me an example that is more appropriate maxcock!! Your Ant story seems to support what I said. These are not just fairy tales - there are reasons why cultures (not races) in the Northern Hemisphere led to organization, planning, planting, harvesting and a rejection of the lazy and non-productive (decision not to work, not inability to work). Cultures in warmer climates had plenty to eat and harvest and didn't have to plan, organize and survive the cold Winter season. This created CULTURAL differences that led to wealth creation in Countries far from the Equator. The more we understand the roots of wealth creation, the more we as a human race will be able to deal with inequality creating opportunities rather than dependance.

Just a reminder Bucko, Taiwan was invaded by the Chinese in 1949, Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Indus Valley had to organize agriculture around annual flooding, heavy rains and subsequent dry periods when it was impossible to grow anything. The Greeks and the Romans basically had to organize armies to steal what they couldn't produce on their own. Hong Kong, or Singapore wouldn't exist if the British hadn't colonized the area to set up trading posts. It's not just about seasons, mostly about scarce resources.
You seem confused BF. Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Indus Valley are hot climates. They don't have a cold winter season. It's bloody hot 90% of the time. Your second post just shot the previous one out of the water.

And let's not forget the Mayas and the Incas *living right on the equator*, who were highly organized while their northern brothers were still nomadic hunter/gathers shivering in tepees.

If anything, European northern cultures learned organization from Southern cultures, not the other way around.
 

BF2K

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if you had really looked at my post you would have understood that it has nothing to do with "hot and cold" but with seasonal changes that produces food or not. And if you knew history you would know that "corn" was not a year round crop and the harvest had to be organized in order to have sufficient stocks to feed the people in the "off season."
 

maxcok

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These are not just fairy tales - there are reasons why cultures (not races) in the Northern Hemisphere led to organization, planning, planting, harvesting and a rejection of the lazy and non-productive (decision not to work, not inability to work). Cultures in warmer climates had plenty to eat and harvest and didn't have to plan, organize and survive the cold Winter season. This created CULTURAL differences that led to wealth creation in Countries far from the Equator. The more we understand the roots of wealth creation, the more we as a human race will be able to deal with inequality creating opportunities rather than dependance.
In case anyone's missing the subtext here, and despite his usual careful (disingenuous) qualifications, when the OP refers to "cultural" differences, it's code, make no mistake. It reminds me of a recently departed high profile member who often spoke of the superiority of white Anglo-Saxon northern "culture". Who originates in tropical climes? Why lazy black and brown people, of course. Just search the OP's post history with the word 'black', for examples and "cultural" stereotypes. Here's one.
 

maxcok

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vince

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if you had really looked at my post you would have understood that it has nothing to do with "hot and cold" but with seasonal changes that produces food or not. And if you knew history you would know that "corn" was not a year round crop and the harvest had to be organized in order to have sufficient stocks to feed the people in the "off season."
Yes, yes... Necessity is the mother of invention. No kidding. Next deflection please....

So far in this thread we've heard about Mary Gates, the Chinese "invasion" of Taiwan, Michelle Bachmann, V. Lenin and Karl Marx, Brazil, the US, 100 potatoes, fables, and Al Gore. You still haven't answered the question, "what's your point?" You just lurch from one barely connected point to the next without citing any source or any facts.
 

phillyhangin

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if you had really looked at my post you would have understood that it has nothing to do with "hot and cold" but with seasonal changes that produces food or not. And if you knew history you would know that "corn" was not a year round crop and the harvest had to be organized in order to have sufficient stocks to feed the people in the "off season."
Even the tropics have seasons - wet and dry - that influence the availability of food. So tropical cultures have to plan ahead for the dry months as well. What you're really talking about is the difference between hunter/gatherers and agriculturalists.

Hunter/gatherers respond to changes in the seasonal availability of food by moving to where the food is. They generally only spend about 3 hours a day working to meet their daily nutritional requirements, as opposed to working 40+ hours a week at jobs they hate making other people rich while they barely earn enough to survive. The rest of their time is their own to spend as they see fit, and they usually spend it in "culture building" activities, such as storytelling. What they lack in material culture, i.e. "stuff," they more than make up for in real culture. More importantly, because they continually move to places where food is plentiful, there is very little conflict over resources.

Agriculture, on the other hand, responds to changes in seasonal availability by building stockpiles and then aggressively defending them against outsiders. Archeological evidence shows that the transition to agriculture was largely a disaster for humans: We shrank from about 6' tall (for men) to about 5' tall due to malnutrition, we see the first evidence of "modern" diseases (obesity, diabetes, cancers), we see a surge in infectious diseases from domestic livestock (tuberculosis, smallpox), and we also get the first evidence of organized warfare - largely connected to the defense of resources.

You seem to view the accumulation of material cultural, i.e. "stuff," as the primary goal, and anyone who has different priorities must therefore be "lazy." This is partly understandable because you were raised in a post-agricultural society, but so was I, and as much as I like "stuff," I can see that it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'd rather have less stuff if it means having more free time to do things that are important to me rather than spend more time working at things that aren't important to me just so that I can show off a bunch of stuff that I don't need.
 

Drifterwood

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According to that other poll thread, I am more left wing than Gandhi, but I still enjoy being wealthy. Freedom of choice. I'll also choose how I use my ability to meet your need.

PS - China and India will again be wealthier than the US.