McCain VP Hopeful Signs Anti-Science Bill

B_Nick4444

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But it is the route to a very useful truth and a great deal of welfare.

To deny it through enacting laws that undermine the teaching of science for one's personal political gain is destructive willful ignorant opportunism.

If you modify "welfare" to mean short-sighted material welfare for a brief instant in time, we have agreement

No disagreement at all with the second point, in its entirety.

I would also add to be cautious of "superstition"; given the tentativeness of human apprehension, how do you think your positivist scientific outlook will appear generations hence?
 

JustAsking

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If you modify "welfare" to mean short-sighted material welfare for a brief instant in time, we have agreement

Lack of material welfare is the source of a great deal of misery and suffering in the world. Averting a lifetime of suffering from polio, for example, is a more than shortsighted. - JA

No disagreement at all with the second point, in its entirety.

I would also add to be cautious of "superstition"; given the tentativeness of human apprehension, how do you think your positivist scientific outlook will appear generations hence?

Generations hence will probably still be using Maxwell's Equations to figure out E&M for one thing. I doubt it will be supplanted in that amount of time. Heck, we still use Newtonian Mechanics to put men on the moon.

Again, you are mistaken about my positivist scientific outlook. I am a Kuhnist when it comes to science and universal truth. And again, I am a pragmatist when it comes to supersition. For example, I know that handling frogs does not cause warts. I also know that there is no evidence for Special Creation as an event that took place 6000 years ago.

I do happen to believe that God created the universe. I just don't happen to believe that Genesis is a science text. (If it was, there would be problem sets at the end of the chapter. Such as, " 1a. Derive the universe. 1b. Give three examples.")
 

JustAsking

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Would you call yourself a Deist, JA?


Some people mistake Naturalism with Positivism. Personally, I'm the former, not the latter.
No, I am definitely not a Deist. But not being one, I am still puzzling out theodicy (currently reading, The Groaning of Creation: God, Evolution, and the Problem of Evil).

Neither am I Naturalismist (?). One would call me a Panentheist.

Nick continues to call me a positivist because he can't imagine a religious person having a regard for the usefulness of science. Someone needs to tell him that about 3/4 (some 1.2 billion) of the world's Christian population belong to denominations that figured that out hundreds of years ago.
 
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mista geechee

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I just don't understand why they would waste time teaching a fairy tale.

1st period: 4.2 billion years ago.....dinosaurs.......asteroid...apes....skyscrapers

3rd period: in seven days this imaginary man who was "there" forever made everything we know of in 6 days. then he flooded teh earth....................
 

JustAsking

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I just don't understand why they would waste time teaching a fairy tale.

1st period: 4.2 billion years ago.....dinosaurs.......asteroid...apes....skyscrapers

3rd period: in seven days this imaginary man who was "there" forever made everything we know of in 6 days. then he flooded teh earth....................

Mr. GC,
This is why:
"We think the materialist world-view that has dominated Western intellectual life since the 19th century is false and we want to refute it. We further want to reverse the influence of such materialistic thinking on our culture." - The Discovery Institute staff, "The Wedge Document, So What?"

This is a quote from The Discovery Institute, which is a Christian PR and lobbying firm that is the author of most of the anti-evolution legislation that is plaguing about half the states in the union.

What they mean by ""materialistic thinking" is the annoying tendency for scientists to actually test out their theories and insisting that theories make accurate predictions about nature.

When you are supersitious about the natural world, reality can be a bitch.

Ironically, people like Nick444 take science too seriously in that they confuse science with scientism, which is a worldview, rather than a simple and useful discipline. One should regard science the same way one regards the rules of arithmetic. It might not be a world view, but try building a two story house without using addition?
 
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Guy-jin

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No, I am definitely not a Deist. But not being one, I am still puzzling out theodicy (currently reading, The Groaning of Creation: God, Evolution, and the Problem of Evil).

Neither am I Naturalismist (?). One would call me a Panentheist.

Nick continues to call me a positivist because he can't imagine a religious person having a regard for the usefulness of science. Someone needs to tell him that about 3/4 (some 1.2 billion) of the world's Christian population belong to denominations that figured that out hundreds of years ago.

Naturalist. I believe, by my reading of Naturalism, that Naturalist thought is compatible with Pantheism. I realize it's a bit different than Panentheism, but they're similar. Anyway, I might qualify as a Pantheist, but I don't believe in something beyond nature, only that we are unable to understand everything in nature... so far, at least.
 

simcha

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And people wonder why Amercian Education is turning to crap under Republicans... :mad:

And while we're at it let's make them teach other creation myths if they must teach the Bible myths.

They must learn these creation myths too then...

Enuma Elish - Babylonia

Norse Creation Myth

The Popol Vuh - Maya

Cherokee Creation Myth

Hindu Creation Story

African Creation Stories

And on and on and on...

If you teach one religion, you must teach them all in a pubic school...
 
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Phil Ayesho

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Although I will probably vote Democratic, this is not an anti-Republican nor is it an anti-McCain thread.

It is an anti-ignorance thread. Jindal = ignorance.

Amen to that.


I am so sick of people trying to foist their imaginary friends on others...

and what is most egregious is that total lack of morals shown by the "christian's" .... they will lie, misrepresent, act illegally, violate their oaths of office, bribe, and steal...
Anything to further the cause of absolute ignorance...
 

DC_DEEP

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And while we're at it let's make them teach other creation myths if they must teach the Bible myths.

They must learn these creation myths too then...

Enuma Elish - Babylonia

Norse Creation Myth

The Popol Vuh - Maya

Cherokee Creation Myth

Hindu Creation Story

African Creation Stories

And on and on and on...

If you teach one religion, you must teach them all in a pubic school...
Don't be silly, Simcha. Those are all false mythologies. Mr. Jindal would only be responsible for promulgation of real religious teachings in public schools, and real religious legislation. (That god-damned pesky first amendment is getting in my way again.) :rolleyes:
 

Calboner

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One that is wholly and completely devoted to furthering his own agenda at the expense of everyone else, including children; an opportunist. I don't believe for a minute that he believes in Creationism.

It's one thing to operate on faith born of ignorance and wholly another to operate on feigned ignorance born of opportunism.

Well said. It is not even clear (to me anyway) that the new law licenses teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the public schools, though it is obvious that those are the kinds of thing that the authors of the law must have had in mind (quotations from the news article):

The law will allow schools if they choose to use "supplemental materials" when discussing evolution but does not specify what the materials would be.


It states that authorities "shall allow ... open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming and human cloning."
If that is really all that the law says, then it seems to me that it provides no legal support for introducing creationism into the curriculum. Am I missing something?

JustAsking, it's nice to hear from you again. (If you've been posting in the past few weeks, I've overlooked your posts.)
 

Calboner

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JustAsking

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Well said. It is not even clear (to me anyway) that the new law licenses teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the public schools, though it is obvious that those are the kinds of thing that the authors of the law must have had in mind (quotations from the news article):

If that is really all that the law says, then it seems to me that it provides no legal support for introducing creationism into the curriculum. Am I missing something?

JustAsking, it's nice to hear from you again. (If you've been posting in the past few weeks, I've overlooked your posts.)




Yes, you are missing the fact, that the overall goal is to implement The Discovery Institute's Wedge Strategy, whose major goals are as follows:
  • To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
  • To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
The "wedge" refers to the tactics of driving a wedge into Enlightenment culture by undermining the public's acceptance and understanding of materialism. Where the term "materialism" refers to modern culture's reliance on real world evidence when forming a conclusion.

For example, in a court of law, one relies as much as possible on material evidence to convict or acquit someone. Replacing that practice with a "theistic understanding", would allow someone to argue as a defense that a supernatural explanation is a sufficient alternative to create reasonable doubt. In other words, the defendent didn't do it, God didi it and left no evidence of it.

This particular bill is one of a long line of strategies that are being proposed in almost every state in the union by right wing legislators and school board members. Since teaching Creationism is illegal, the DI invented Intelligent Design. That con was exposed in Dover, PA so the DI went on to invent other more stealthy strategies such as:

Teach The Controversy
Critical Analysis
Academic Freedom

All of these strategies are attempts to allow for the introduction of "complementary materials" into the classroom, which are graciously supplied by The Discovery Institute, such as Of Pandas and People.

Notice that in this case (and almost all the others), the specific scientific theories that are singled out are Evolution, Cosmic Origin, Global Warming, Stem Cell Research. Can anyone detect a political agenda in that list? For example, why not Newton's Laws, or General Relativity, or Gravitation. What about teaching the controversies about those things. And, why not the Heliocentric Solar System theory?
 
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JustAsking

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I am disappointed in you, Simcha, for omitting the One True Faith:

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Cal,
When IDiots in Florida tried to modify the State School Science Curriculum, to allow for alternative theories to evolution, people from all over the country inundated the school board with requests that the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster be included with all the rest. The strategy worked.

As soon as you remove the criteria that scientific theories require evidence you open yourself up to any explanation you want for natural phenomenon. You create an environment where Evolution, FSM, or the Navajo story of creation are all equally valid.
 
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JustAsking

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...and what is most egregious is that total lack of morals shown by the "christian's" .... they will lie, misrepresent, act illegally, violate their oaths of office, bribe, and steal...
Anything to further the cause of absolute ignorance...

Yes, "Lying for Jesus" seems to be the norm in all of this. The reason why this is acceptable to them is that this is not really a religious initiative. It is more of a cultural/political battle that is going on. It is wrapped in the cloak of religion much in the same way that the Bush Administration wraps their causes in the cloak of religion. It is more of a manipulative device than an ideology.
 

JustAsking

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Preaching alleged gods that have as much supporting evidence as leprechauns does not make one look intelligent.
Actually, this is an example of Logical Positivism, that Nick444 was rightly complaining about. I agree with Nick on this. My complaint with Nick was that he was assuming that Positivism was my philosophy as well.

Bigg's assumption here is that no ideas are valid unless they are supported by material evidence. That might sound like what I was saying above, but no, there is an important distiction. The distinction is that I view science as one of man's most useful intellectual achievements. Science should be judged by everyone including its practitioners not on how valid it might be as a world view (scientism), but on how useful it is (pragmatism).

So when it comes to useful explanations of natural phenenomenon, I would side with Bigg where he insists that those explanations are supported by material evidence. I also support science's working assumption that all natural phenomemon can be ultimately explained through naturalistic explanations. That is a pragmatic working assumption, not a world view. Much like when your accountant has a working assumption that arithmetic will allow him to get an accurate accounting of your finances, he does so not because he thinks it is a world view. He does it because so far it is known to work.

But when it comes to one's complete epistemology (how we know things) about universal truth, I side with Nick in saying that scientific materialism is not a comprehensive route to universal truth. The support of that comes from the observation that revolutions in scientific thought, where powerful theories are replaced by even more powerful theories, seem to produce new theories that have no resemblance to the ones they replaced. Scientists are fully aware of this and say , "so what. the new one works better." This is why science is not scientism. It is simple pragmatism. But it is obvious that although the new theories are more powerful than the old ones, they cannot be converging on universal truth.

Where I argue with Bigg, therefore, is on the idea that all ideas, thoughts, philosophies, beliefs, must be supported by real world material evidence. That is a kind of positivist fundamentalism, or scientism. The problem I stated above is the reason why most people abandoned the notion a while ago. The revolutions of Modern Physics in the early part of the 20th century humbled most everyone who thought that way. In fact, there is nothing more powerful than Quantum Mechanics when it comes to explaining sub-atomic phenomemon. However, most scientists do not believe it is actually the truth about sub-atomic phenomenon. If it wasn't for Quantum Mechanics, you would be reading this on a computer that would be the size of a football field. But that doesn't change the fact that most scientist believe that Quantum Mechanics is probably not the truth.

We already know that Newton's Laws are not the truth, but at speeds much less than the speed of light, they are "good enough" at doing what they are supposed to do, which is to make predictions. Although Relativity has replaced Newtonian Mechanics, we still use NM to put men on the moon. Relativity yields Newtonian Mechanics at speeds much below the speed of light, and gives us better answers at speeds approaching the speed of light. So Relativity is more useful and more accurate under more conditions, but we don't think it is any closer to a universal truth than Newton was. This is why science is no more a world view than arithmetic is. It is simply an astonishingly useful methodology.

To say that science doesn't work is sheer ignorance. But no more ignorant than saying that it is the only path to universal truth.
 
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