Men: are you a feminist

Are you a feminist?

  • I am a male feminist

    Votes: 16 39.0%
  • I am not a male feminist

    Votes: 20 48.8%
  • I am a female feminist

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • I am not a female feminist

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41
2

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I never expected something so puerile and idiotic to emanate from your screen name, Jason.

Despite your childish attempt to reverse my meaning, you know very well the illustration points out that circumcision is not, by definition, a case of mutilation. The use of such unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric destroys any credibility the speaker might have had when making their case against the practice, in no small part because you're wholly insulting a large percentage of the adult male population by so doing.

If you cannot make your argument without resorting to such tawdry sensationalism, then perhaps you might want to re-examine the position you're advocating.

But it does:

1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect


2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple

Is something cut off? Yes! The very word itself, circumcise, indicates that something is being cut off.

Is something being permanently destroyed? Yes! The foreskin is removed. It cannot (yet) be regrown to what it was before it was removed and it is either sold to cosmetics or drug companies or destroyed.

Is something made imperfect? Yes! The penis will bear scars. It will no longer function as it was designed to. The penis will not be as it was created.

I stand by my interpretation of the word.

I'm not saying your (or mine for that matter) penis isn't great, doesn't look or function well enough to please you or others. If you like being circumcised then more power to you, but circumcision is a textbook definition of mutilation.
 
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Not a man, but that's never stopped me from answering a question... I am a feminist in whatever manner I choose to define feminism.
Feminism and Abortion

You get a woman pregnant. You want the child, she doesn't. She can have it destroyed.
You get a woman pregnant. You don't want the child, she does. You have to pay for it.

Mystifying.

Or, you can have a mature discussion about these sorts of possibilities, come to a consensus, and take preventive measures before sticking it in? :rolleyes:

Or, you can have a mature discussion about these sorts of possibilities, come to a consensus, and take preventive measures before opening your legs.

It's a two way street.

I would not have sex with a woman who would elect to have an abortion if she became pregnant by me. I don't like the idea of someone killing a life I helped to create and I don't want to hate someone that much.
 

HazelGod

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Is something cut off? Yes!

Is something being permanently destroyed? Yes!

Is something made imperfect? Yes!

circumcision is a textbook definition of mutilation.

Unless you're an irrational zealot, it isn't...I wasn't talking about the biologically insignificant bit of material known as the foreskin, I was referring to the indispensable organ called the penis. Removal of the foreskin does not constitute mutilation of either the penis nor the body as a whole, not by any aspect of its definition.

You also altered the definition...cut up is not the same as cut off. You don't hear talk of surgeons "mutilating" gangrenous limbs, and for good reason.

At any rate, it's clear to me that you're incapable of discussing this rationally, so I bid you adieu, with my apologies to the forum for derailing this topic from its original intent.
 

Jason

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I think most men support feminism in terms of supporting equality for women and proper thought in society for the needs of women. But I also think that many men - perhaps most men - feel that the concept of feminism is sometimes used to create and perpetuate systems which disadvantage men, and are contrary to ideas of equality and fairness.

Examples I have seen recently:
* In the workplace a middle-aged professional woman turns on the waterworks and gets favourable treatment over a man who didn't feel able to burst into tears.
* In the workplace a "local" decision is made (applying outdated stereotypes) that when drawing up rotas to use a building accessed down a poorly lit path only men should ever be asked to take the unpopular 5pm-6pm slot because it is not safe for women.
* Women-only swimming sessions in a municipal swimming pool (which means women have more hours a week than men in which they can use the pool).
Women are playing an old-fashioned, weaker-sex gender card to get preferential treatment - but are expecting to be treated equally.

We (in the UK) have a real push towards 50:50 allocation of jobs to women and men in occupations which are clean, nice, professional. This despite a retirement age for women which is 5 years earlier and many women electing to take time out for child care - ie there being more men than women in the workforce. But in dirty jobs (eg garbage collector) there is no drive towards 50:50, and such jobs are effectively a male ghetto.

Feminism will be happening when 50% of our garbage collectors are women. And 50% of our soldiers. And 50% of our road sweepers.
 
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Unless you're an irrational zealot, it isn't...I wasn't talking about the biologically insignificant bit of material known as the foreskin, I was referring to the indispensable organ called the penis. Removal of the foreskin does not constitute mutilation of either the penis nor the body as a whole, not by any aspect of its definition.


I don't find your argument persuasive by any means.

You also altered the definition...cut up is not the same as cut off. You don't hear talk of surgeons "mutilating" gangrenous limbs, and for good reason.


No, I was referring to definition 2, "To cut off." exactly as you posted it. I altered nothing.

At any rate, it's clear to me that you're incapable of discussing this rationally, so I bid you adieu, with my apologies to the forum for derailing this topic from its original intent.

At what point was I irrational? I simply illustrated the definition as you provided it. At no time did I make an appeal to emotion until the last paragraph of which the definition was not the subject.
 

Jason

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Not 100% sure how this thread has got onto circumcision.

In the UK we are fast moving to a position where implementation of EU human rights legislation through our legal systems will make infant circumcision illegal save through medical necessity. We're not quite there yet, but it is happening - it needs court cases to embed the fundmantal concepts in our legal system. Circumcision is already being described as child abuse, and save for medical need the British Medical Council advises (=tells) surgeons not to do it, recognising that there are legal issues. I'm not aware of the word mutilation being used, but it is in keeping with the spirit of the views being expressed through our legal system. Basically no-one has the right to cut off an integral part of someone's body, and cultural or religious custom is not a justification.
 

The Dragon

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I don't belive in "ism's".
But I will say I have never seen that my gender is a good enough reason for me not to do anything.
It's about having a level playing field rather than one gender being better than another.
I am an independant, autonomous, free thinking adult, with a vast range of abilities and interests.
I will approach any situation or intrest with an open mind and a williness to master the challlenge whether it be operating a 50tonne dump truck, learning how to recalibrate smelting technology, or learning how to ride a motorbike.
I learnt very early on you don't ask for acceptance or permission or approval.
In doing so you open yourself up to the negative in which the sex card will always be dealt.
The only limiting factor ANYONE one should ever be subjected to is personal ability and or personal desire.
Never their gender.
 
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HazelGod

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swinglow28

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Feminism is my favorite F word.

Since most feminist writings look at all of the underlying systems of inequality, oppression, violence, exclusion, feminism is really a humanist movement. Feminism just looks specifically at how these systems of inequality affect the lives of women and takes action to change the situation. It recognizes how all of these systems intersect and how oppressions based on gender, race, sexuality are linked. You cannot advocate for equal rights for african americans, if you will not also advoate for equal rights for women, etc. If one group is allowed to be oppressed then we are all at risk.

So I advocate for feminism, though I am not sure I am a feminist.
 

B_RedDude

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Absurd!
While I am with Europeans in many things, this is not one of them!

Not 100% sure how this thread has got onto circumcision.

In the UK we are fast moving to a position where implementation of EU human rights legislation through our legal systems will make infant circumcision illegal save through medical necessity. We're not quite there yet, but it is happening - it needs court cases to embed the fundmantal concepts in our legal system. Circumcision is already being described as child abuse, and save for medical need the British Medical Council advises (=tells) surgeons not to do it, recognising that there are legal issues. I'm not aware of the word mutilation being used, but it is in keeping with the spirit of the views being expressed through our legal system. Basically no-one has the right to cut off an integral part of someone's body, and cultural or religious custom is not a justification.
 

B_RedDude

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I live in San Francisco; our straight mayor is a feminist, and he's a total pussy!

P.S. For the record, I am gay.

Thats cool, but the reason I asked is, and I should have asked fro orientations too... because a straight guy calling himself a feminist... is just kind of... not macho.
 
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Patchos

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You may have just rendered yourself totally unappealing to the women on the site.

A feminist supports equal rights, treatment, and opportunities for women.

Slightly surprised the poll at this point has a majority of misogynists.


Thanks Kalipygian for the most succinct definition of feminism. Spot On.


Feminism is my favorite F word.

Since most feminist writings look at all of the underlying systems of inequality, oppression, violence, exclusion, feminism is really a humanist movement. Feminism just looks specifically at how these systems of inequality affect the lives of women and takes action to change the situation. It recognizes how all of these systems intersect and how oppressions based on gender, race, sexuality are linked. You cannot advocate for equal rights for african americans, if you will not also advoate for equal rights for women, etc. If one group is allowed to be oppressed then we are all at risk.

So I advocate for feminism, though I am not sure I am a feminist.

Reading this ^^^ has made me feel happier about being here. Thank you.

You are a feminist, swinglow28, I'm very happy to say.

If anyone wants to read more about feminism there are some great writers over at Shakesville blogspot. The Feminism 101 section has some good reading on the pervasiveness of sexism.

Shakesville: Feminism 101
 
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I'm gonna throw in my two cents here as a fairly liberal Political Science graduate. Feminism is an unattractive word to so many people because conservative elements in society with their own agendas (religion, God, the nuclear family) have turned the definition of the word into an image of man-hating, bra-burning, harry-legged lesbians who would willingly destroy the family and thus the very fabric of (Western) society. It's important to get history straight. Feminism has come in three distinct waves since the 1960s, and each has meant something different: first, simply getting women's foot in the door and breaking down the wall between private and public was enough, but since then backlash led to radical feminism, and these days there is a worldwide movement that constitutes the third wave. While I understand the uneasiness many of you have with labels, I think feminism is a useful label to represent equal rights for all throughout the world. Many assume that because women have the right to vote, hold office and other fundamental rights (mainly only in the "Western, industrialized" world) that their is nothing left to fight for. This is not the case. Women still make .73 cents to the dollar against men, women constitute over half of the population but only about 15-20% of our elected positions in the US and Canada, and many women still feel pressured by societal constraints to put off careers and ambitions for the more traditional female "roles" of having babies and staying at home. Violence against women is still rampant as indicated by the need for the White Ribbon campaign and "Take Back the Night" marches. Additionally, gross abuses of women including sex trafficking in the former USSR and SE Asia, female genital cutting in many parts of Africa and other horrors are still everyday occurences. I am a feminist, and damn proud of it. It simply means equality for everyone, everywhere, regardless of gender. Don't let those against it manipulate the definition and don't be afraid to stand tall and proud as one.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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Feminism and Abortion

You get a woman pregnant. You want the child, she doesn't. She can have it destroyed.
You get a woman pregnant. You don't want the child, she does. You have to pay for it.

Mystifying.

Feminism and Children's Rights

Baby girls sleep soundly in American hospitals, protected by law from so much as a pin prick (as well they should), while a roughly $200 million business has been made out of mutilating the genitals of little boys.

Mystifying.

____

Nah, feminists were great when they had something to argue about. I won't pretend I've understood anything they'd been babbling about for at least the past couple of decades.

Making abortion (which I regard as an aberration) the sacred cow of feminism was a grotesque mistake.


200 million isnt that much for the country as a whole really. So i wouldnt say that its a money making business. I'm sure the hospitals arent encouraging circumcision so they can pay their bills. I also wouldnt say that a pediatrician or Ob/Gyn goes into practice so they can lop off foreskins to pay their student loans off.
 

Meniscus

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First of all I have to give a nod to swinglow28 for his excellent description of feminism, and thanks to Bbucko for putting feminism in the context of other liberations movements.

...Many assume that because women have the right to vote, hold office and other fundamental rights (mainly only in the "Western, industrialized" world) that their is nothing left to fight for...
^^^
Thanks to burncollector for explaining why this isn't true.

I studied feminist theory in college and grad school. I wasn't a Women's Studies major or minor, and I don't claim to be an expert, but I took a couple of classes, and I did a lot of research into eco-feminism while working on my Master's thesis.

I believe in the equality of women, but these days most people do (or at least they think that they do). Our society is no longer debating whether women should be able to vote, or go to college, or have careers. Sure, there are still a few people left who believe that women should stay at home and be wives and mothers, and that men should be the breadwinners and the head of the family, but they are a dying breed. (I hope.) But there's still a long way to go, as burncollector explained better than I ever could.

As far as I can tell, feminism is no longer focused on obtaining equal rights, or equal pay. While I won't go as far to say that those battles are over, the goal of feminism seems to create far deeper and subtler changes in our society, and in the human race itself--ours ways of thinking, of being in the world, of relating to each other, how we related to the planet and nature itself.

Women are still disrepected and objectified by men. It's so pervasive in our society it's often hard to see. Women themselves often don't notice it, because they've grown up with it their whole lives and have been socialized to certain roles and behaviors. One could argue that women's interests in things such as clothes, shoes, make-up, and fashion, etc. are not natural to them, but are instead learned (beginning at a frightenly early age) as ways to please men. In a much more general sense, women have learned that their role, their purpose, is to please men, to be appealing to men, to be supportive of men.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Women are oppressed in thousands of subtle ways.

Giving women equal opportunities for an education and a career does not the fundamental, underlying dynamic of our society. Women exist for men, not for themselves.

Feminists contend that our culture is not healthy. It's competetive, aggressive, and plagued by violence. It's not ecologically sound or sustainable. People are overworked, lonely, dissatisfied, depressed, emotionally stunted, and spiritually empty. This is a world created by men. Offering women "equality" in this world is not true equality at all.

For women to have equality, our civilization must be deconstructed and rebuilt.

Feminism is working towards transforming society into something more caring, nurturing, supportive, non-violent, and non-destructive. They are working towards a world in which people recognize their interdependence, cooperation replaces competition, and technology and economics are sustainable, having little or no impact on the environment.

As a gay man who felt more than a little oppressed by straight men--by all the jocks and bullies and frat boys, by all the cops and priests and politicians, by all the "good old boys" and so on, feminist theory appealed to me. It resonated with me. I embraced it.

But my attempts to participate in feminist discourse were more than a little unsuccessful. It wasn't that my thoughts and ideas were rejected by feminist women. I never got that far. I wasn't welcome in the discussion. The feminist women I encountered didn't want me there. This puzzled me. I tried to present myself as a friend and ally. "We never asked you to be," they said. The harder I tried, the uglier things got, the more I seemed to offend them. I was essentially told that men had too much power for too long, that my belief that men should be allowed participate, to be heard, even to ask questions was rooted in my patriarchal ways of thinking, that men had been talking too long and that we needed to give up our "unearned cultural privileges" and sit down, shut up, and listen. Or better yet, just go away and give women their space.

I find that if you question this premise, feminist women typically say, "you just don't get it." I am not sure that they are right, but I'm not sure that they are wrong, either. As a gay man, I know an awful lot of straight people who "just don't get it," so I can't discount the possibility that my socialization as male both prevents me from knowing what women know, and from understanding things from their perspective.

I still believe in feminist ideals. I'm all for transforming our society into something better, healthier, and more sustainable. But I worry that feminism is held back by a sort of victim mentality (while recognizing that women have been victimized), and that they go too far in painting men as evil oppressors (while recognizing that women have been oppressed by men).

I once called myself a feminist, but I hesitate to do so anymore. I remain sympathetic to feminism, but I'm also frustrated by it.
 

Xcuze

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New End, just get on your knees & thank the Lord you're rid of her!
Feminism is now officially a dirty word. It served its purpose back in the day but now its redundant.

Dolly Parton burned her bra back in the 70's. It STILL burning..!
 

azda

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It's almost beyond dispute that women are discriminated against in certain ways, at last in the US. They earn less then 80% for the same work, on average (that's off the top of my head so not sure of exact figure. I can find a source I'm sure.) How much you earn, obviously, is a huge factor in your quality of life. Then there's the fact that even though more than half the voters in the US are women, way way way less than half the people in Congress are. Ditto governors. And in much of the undeveloped, religious and poorest parts of the world women are considered subservient to men. I read that 350 women in the poorest countries didn't want to have their last child. I think they should have a say in that decision.

And it goes a lot deeper than that. I was mildly a feminist for a while. I understood what women faced, but only in my head, theoretically. Then I stumbled on the blog of a young feminist women from London and I read blog post after post of the horrors she goes through as a women, stuff for which there is just no male equivalent for: catcalls, wolfwhistles, being groped, having guys following you out of the subway menacingly, guys going "nice tits", men directly saying "I'd like to #$%@ you", stuff like that. Just today I was with a friend and asked her about it and she said yeah, she gets a lot of that, though not the scarier stuff. It's treating someone horribly solely because she's a woman and you can.

Also, as someone pointed out to me a long time ago, there's no antonym for misogynist (a man that hates all women). Apparently it's perfectly possible for a man to categorically hate women and so a word is needed for it, while there's no need for a word that means a woman who hates all men. I'm not a philologist (someone who studies and tries to understand cultures by studying their languages) by training, but speaks for itself.