Michael Jackson has died according to TMZ..

[VeeP]

Figured it may have been an OD of some sort. And/or anorexia. Apparently his "personal physician" was present well before the paramedics arrived. This is beginning to sound like a re-run of Anna Nicole Smith's demise.

 

[Flashy]

Sorry but Curt Cobain does not belong with the others. Not even on the second list. MJ has more in that he crossed races.

not even on the second list?

spare me...to suggest that he is not on the list with Morrison, one of my favorites of all time is absurd. Morrison was only famous and productive for roughly the same period of time (1967-1971) as Cobain (1991-1995) Joplin (1967-1970) and Hendrix (1966-1970)


MJ did not cross more races than Elvis, or John Lennon either. Are you telling me that blacks, Asians, Latinos etc. and people in other countries did not love Elvis or John Lennon/The Beatles? I would suggest you ask musicians of those persuasions what Lennon and Elvis meant to them.

and the difference, between Kurt Cobain and Michael Jackson was that Kurt Cobain actually *WROTE* his music, whereas Michael Jackson did *NOT* write the vast majority of his.

Are you suggesting that crossing races is a more important arbiter of quality of music?

Nonsense. Paula Abdul's "music" crossed races, are you suggesting it has more importance than the music of Led Zeppelin, which did not crossover as much?



and you obviously did not read the line carefully, which said "so far, i can think of 3 other artists whose deaths are as comparable in terms of the loss felt by so many"

it is not a question of who wrote more music, who wrote better music, but whose deaths are comparable in terms of the loss.

Michael Jackson was finished long ago in terms of artistic impact. he hadn't produced a quality album since Thriller in 1982...that is 27 years. When Cobain died he was nearing his peak of artistic creativity.


Jackson did not write even one single song on his 1st four albums from 1972-1975.

the first album he even wrote a song for was "Off The Wall" in 1979 and even then he only wrote 1 full song, (the excellent Don't Stop Till You Get Enough) and was a co-writer of "Get On The Floor".

It wasn't until 3 years later (1982) that he actually wrote another song, for "Thriller" and even then, he only wrote 4 songs...

the excellent "Wanna Be Startin Somethin"
Beat it
Billie Jean
The Girl Is Mine

It was then 5 years (1987) till he released another album, the decidedly less impressive "Bad"

more notable, that what made it less impressive as an album was that he actually wrote 9 of the 11 songs.

songs like
"Bad"
Dirty Diana
Leave me Alone

are garbage...

the only decent tune on that album is "The Way You Make Me Feel".

and that was it...he was done...he came out with "Dangerous" 4 years late in which he wrote most of the songs with a bunch of new collaborators, which was terrible.

He was fantastic with the Jackson 5.


so no, the impact of his death was not so far superior to that of Cobain in terms of impact. If he had died in 1987, i would say absolutely, yes, but he has not made an impact as an artist in over two decades. When Lennon died, he was still relevant as a solo artist, even if it had been nearly a decade since the Beatles broke up, and even Elvis was not far removed from his better days.

in terms of impact, i stand by everything i said. Michael Jackson, although tabloid fodder still, and an all-time great, is decades removed from his apex.

As such the impact of his loss, though still great, is lessened.

frankly, he is on par with Cobain, since Cobain died at his peak, and both are behind Elvis and Lennon respectively.

 

[Flashy]

I agree that they are the big four. Although I don't think Kurt deserves to be in such company after so few years.

true, my friend, but modicum of years is not indicative of impact...

Hendrix being an example...he changed the way the guitar could be heard, beyond the realms and borders of sounds thought possible/logical or melodic, then he was gone...

for some artists, 4 years is enough, for others like someone like Bryan Adams (just off the top of my head) 30 years is nowhere near enough.

While Michael Jackson made people go nuts with the moonwalk, or could inspire you to dance to great tunes like "Don't stop till you get enough and wanna be startin somethin'" etc, he could never take a listener to the depths of profound sadness that Cobain could...

he was very unique as an entertainer...but aside from some very good pop songs, his impact as a musician/artist is far less than others...

as an entertainer though, it is nearly impossible to find someone on his level or above him...as an "entertainer" the only person i'd put above him is Elvis and the only other person I'd probably put on par with him is Madonna.

IMO :smile:

 

[798686]

Poor ol' Jacko.

I thought the pressure of all those concerts was a bit crazy. He seemed really unhappy tho - maybe he's better off out of it?

 

[Xcuze]

Sorry but Curt Cobain does not belong with the others. Not even on the second list. MJ has more in that he crossed races.

I think it's more about genres than race. Kurt had a more limited appeal for sure. And ultimately represents a loser mentality.

true, my friend, but modicum of years is not indicative of impact...

Well no, but I also do not think that Kurt has left behind the same body of work as the others. Smells like teen spirit is the only real classic that is generally well known by the masses. Sure, rock fans will regard a few other tracks as memorable. But the public at large will not be hugely familiar with them like they are with DOZENS of Elvis, Lennon or MJ songs. Although I agree that Nirvana were a massively influential group. But that wasn't necessarily a good thing considering how many dreary, depressing acts we had to endure as a consequence.

Kurts impact was more about timing. His death caught a public mood. He's not loved by people across the board like the other three are.

 

[bruce-e]

I always felt there was a Sad vibe about him, even as a little boy. It was in his eyes, am I the only one that felt that? I feel for his children.

 

[Flashy]

I think it's more about genres than race. Kurt had a more limited appeal for sure. And ultimately represents a loser mentality.



Well no, but I also do not think that Kurt has left behind the same body of work as the others. Smells like teen spirit is the only real classic that is generally well known by the masses. Sure, rock fans will regard a few other tracks as memorable. But the public at large will not be hugely familiar with them like they are with DOZENS of Elvis, Lennon or MJ songs. Although I agree that Nirvana were a massively influential group. But that wasn't necessarily a good thing considering how many dreary, depressing acts we had to endure as a consequence.

Kurts impact was more about timing. His death caught a public mood. He's not loved by people across the board like the other three are.

got to say i disagree about the body of work, my friend...and it being a loser mentality.

ti was not the mentality of a loser, but of a sad, broken person, torn through, who eventually spiralled downwards. It is not glamorous, it is sad. but not really "loser"...it is at times how we have all felt at one time or another and are very lucky to say that we were fortunate not to fall farther over the edge.

As for what is "well known" by the masses, i have to disagree there..

While many bands may have only one song that is "known by the masses" that is not indicative of impact or breadth of achievement...

Very few of the masses in general can name one song by The Who or the or Jimi Hendrix etc...and when they do, it is either "My Generation" or "Purple Haze"...but what is beyond that is an incredible amount of brilliantwork...

that is the same with Nirvana...while everyone knows "teen Spirit", would debate that Lithium and Come as You Are are, while not at that level knowledge, certainly well known by the masses...

as for the dozens of songs that the public would be familiar with by Jackson, I'd likely say he'd be fortunatte for the public at large to know more than a dozen of his songs since he went solo...that is not just him, but Elvis as well...

certainly, avid music listeners may, but look at this list of the "best known" jackson songs:

(i compiled them, from what i recall as his best known, chronologically from 1979 on when he became a full fledged solo artist)

Don't stop till you get enough
I want to rock with you
Off The Wall
Wanna Be Startin Somethin
Thriller
Beat It
Billie Jean
Human Nature
PYT (maybe)
Bad (sucked)
The Way You Make Me Feel
Man In The Mirror
(nothing from Dangerous, deserves to be mentioned here, as songs like "Jam" and "remember the time" are not of that caliber of knowledge)

after that you could *MAYBE* put "Heal The World" up there...

so that is a dozen extremely well known songs plus three that you could make a case for...

with Nirvana in just under 2 and a half years you can look at these,

Smells Like teen Spirit
In Bloom
Come As You Are
Lithium
Breed
Polly
Drain You
Something In The Way
Heart Shaped Box
Dumb
All Apologies
You Know You're Right


there are 12 there that i would say are well known by the masses...but the difference is, that beyond the initial 15 i mentioned for Jackson, there is not much else...no insult intended to about a dozen of those 15 which are really rather great songs...but the depth beyond the 11 Nirvana songs i mentioned, is far superior, in terms of quality, if not recognition.

for example past the initial dozen know to the masses, there are a number of songs that are of such high quality yet are not known to the masses because of the genre...such as:

School
About A Girl
Floyd The Barber
Stay Away
Dive
Sliver
Been A Son
Lounge Act
Aneurysm
Rape Me
Frances Farmer
PennyRoyal Tea


(and obviously, i have not included covers, where Nirvana and Michael Jackson both did many great covers...the difference is, that most of Jackson's covers, were not nearly on a par with his own produced music, wheras Nirvana's, were frankly incredible and not only met the high quality of their music, but also, in many cases far exceeded the original work, which is not easy to do) such as:

Here She Comes Now - (velvet underground)
Jesus Doesn't Want For A Sunbeam (Vaselines)
Man Who Sold The World (David Bowie)
Plateau (Meat Puppets)
Oh Me (Meat Puppets)
Lake Of Fire (Meat Puppets)
Where did you Sleep Last Night (Leadbelly)
Love Buzz
Son Of A Gun (Vaselines)



As for not being "loved across the board" as the others are, that is debatable...

Elvis was certainly loved madly, but he was certainly not loved by the mainstream in the 1950s and 1960s...he was considered downright dangerous by the more staid parts of the masses...he was a handsome white southerner playing the devils music, created by southern negroes...he was a serious threat.

Same with John Lennon/The Beatles...they were adored by some, loathed and feared by others....

Nirvana was and still are utterly worshipped and adored for the brief time they were there, and were utterly loathed and feared and misunderstood by the pop world not to mention the "Culture War" types of the 1990s (Pat Buchanan et. al)

Michael Jackson was loved because he was non-threatening. His music was not dangerous at all. which is why he could sell Pepsi to people.

but let's face it, the beloved Michael Jackson of the pre-1990s was long gone, and in many cases, became a figure of serious dysfunction...i mean seriously, the whole child molestation thing, changed alot of people's opinions, as fact...it changed mine of him...i ahd never worshipped him, but irespected his music prior to 1987, even if it was not always my style and he lost me when he became less motown/R&B oriented...

Everytime i think of Michael now, i think of what the hilariously funny Katt Williams said about him:

YouTube - Katt Williams on Michael Jackson

:biggrin1:

 

[Xcuze]

Oh Flashy, you exhaust me! :redface:

But I disagree with most of your points. You are a Rock fan and as such are over-estimating how well known Nirvanas songs are. I'm personally not familiar with Lithium. Maybe I'd recognise it if I heard it. Come as you are I know but I doubt the average man on the street could sing along to it like they could numerous Elvis/MJ/Lennon songs. As for the rest of that Nirvana list, colour me clueless! To be fair, I am gay. :wink:

You've left out many well known MJ songs there too!

Elvis, MJ and Lennon are in a different league. They impacted on many more levels than Cobain. They transcended their genres and even their profession.

Cobain is in the same category as Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison, Bolan etc Rock stars who shone brightly for just a short period but were hugely influential. And slightly tragic.

And Kurt Cobain was a depressed soul who shot himself and left a child fatherless. Im not judging him for that but it hardly implies a winning mentality!

 

[Howling_mad]

Can we please let the poor Human Being rest in peace, we are all from the same, live, breath, eat and work. Michael was an inspiration in his golden years a genius in his own right. Shakespear, Oscar Wilde were genius' too, some people like them some people don't. Luckily for the likes of Wilde & Shakespear the didn't have the media or paporatsie that we have today.

I've heard the jokes about MJ already, yes they're funny and I have laughed at them, HOWEVER, I do not for one minute believe all the crap the media spins us about Michael or any Celeb. I personally blame the media for Michaels troubles!

Look at Britains Got Talent Star Susan Boyle, and ordinary person that cracked under the media spotlight, it can happen to anyone. So have a laugh and joke, but also remember on thing, in his own right Michael was a great inspiration to many, but we as the media vultures, could have drove him over the edge. If we didn't buy gossiping newpapers or listen to gossip these people would life ordinary lives.

R.I.P. Michael, your Heat just couldn't Beat the rythem no more, no you've gone to a quieter place, where you can get better.

 

[Nrets]

now you've gone to a quieter place, where you can get better.

So true and so sad

 

[barbiegirl007]

No words!

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

i used to dance to a video i had of his music videos as a kid. ive been watching the news all day. literally only russiatoday isnt showing anything of it. even gordon brown released a statement. nuff said

 

[B_theOtherJJ]

yes, EVERYONE dies, albeit some people much too soon. Guess it was HIS time ?
but his creator obviously had a plan for him. RIP michael, finally at Peace.

 

[Xcuze]

I reckon it was the stress of his upcoming London shows that finished him off. Just more than his fragile state could take.

Maybe Latoya could take his place instead?

 

[798686]

I reckon it was the stress of his upcoming London shows that finished him off. Just more than his fragile state could take.

Yeh, I think so too. :redface:

 

[naughty]

i reckon it was the stress of his upcoming london shows that finished him off. Just more than his fragile state could take.

Maybe latoya could take his place instead?

please

 

[EL_Duderino]

"He made thriller" - Dave Chappelle

 

[Krusader]

RIP to the King of Pop

 

[B_Castello]

I guess he paid that first boy 20 million cause he liked him? If you have money you can buy your way out of anything, what a fool.

Monster, I dont know where you get this number cause it was not revealed, and I have a feeling that is was much lower then that.

But let me explain my thought on this. Although I dont know and will never know the real true (neither do you), but see, when you have money and you are famous on top of that, some vicious people try to take advantage from you (you know the one that sue for everything). I remember when the husband of Celine Dion was accused of ''raping'' a woman (and the bitch was ugly), he just paid her and shout up. According to his attourney, it was better to just paid off, then making a big media deal with that, wich could have hurt more Celine... A couple year after that same woman went to jail, because she fasly accused another man with similar reason.

So his maybe his attourney though it was better to paid off (on the first accusation) and thinking the story will die... But it did not. So the second time, Michael decided to go ahead and fight, and he won (remember that the mother of that kid have a past of sueing).

He did admit sleeping in bed with his kids, and other kids. Yeah that is stange behavior, but it doesn't make him a pedophyle niether. He explain that he miss a lot of love when he was a child, and he wanted to gave to the kids that dont have. But true, he look stange and act stange, but then again it doesn't make him a criminal.

You see Monster, dont put number and facts that we dont know. There is a lot of false information on internet. Dont add in to those rumours.

 

[B_Monster]

No, I was calling anyone, you, a fool for defending a molester. Im not fake but Id rather be fake then condon molestation, you make me suspicious as to why you do. Do you have proof im fake? Lets see it. This from someone with no pics.

Wait so let me get this straight. You post fake pics of yourself on a big penis website so that you can lure men into sending you pictures so you can masturbate to them, yet you are calling arguably the most successful, well known, talented, most accomplished entertainer or human being to ever walk this Earth a fool...