Michael Jackson has died according to TMZ..

[Xcuze]

Flashy, with all that typing and wanking to porn I'm amazed your wrist joints still function! :biggrin1:

I would also suggest that both Elvis and The Beatles were POP!

 

[Flashy]

Oh Flashy, you exhaust me! :redface:

that is what my lady friends say after a long night. :biggrin1::wink:

But I disagree with most of your points. You are a Rock fan and as such are over-estimating how well known Nirvanas songs are. I'm personally not familiar with Lithium. Maybe I'd recognise it if I heard it. Come as you are I know but I doubt the average man on the street could sing along to it like they could numerous Elvis/MJ/Lennon songs. As for the rest of that Nirvana list, colour me clueless! To be fair, I am gay. :wink:

being gay is not an excuse for not really knowing it...Michael Stipe was a huge Nirvana fan (and friend of Cobain's) not to mention Moby...and on top of that, Kurt Cobain was a huge supporter of the gay community, lifestyle and struggle.

I think the fact that you do not know much about their songs is due to not listening, not because you are gay or cause they are less well known...

being clueless of those songs obviously does not make you defective, but, i have a feeling, if you heard them, you would be struck very deeply by many of them.

I have listened to all of Michael Jackson's albums in my life..obviously, you are a lot younger than i, (IIRC) but would you be willing to listen to Nirvana to decide for yourself? If you are, i will send you a file of a selection of songs ...then you can decide for yourself...since they are far different from what you may have heard or think they are.

It will not take much of your time, not to mention, you might find something sadly beautiful about their music...i am not just talking about the crushing and heavy sound of theirs you are familiar with, but the soft, sad, or delicate ones as well.

you said in your post that you know only maybe three of those songs...so is that fair for you to determine their quality as a band (not to mention, not look at something you may come to really love if given a chance)

I listed all these songs below...if i weed out a selection of them, will you listen, then get back to me as to what you think? I'd bewilling to send them to you, and you might discover something you really loved.

I will pick out a selection of some of the following songs, some hard, some soft, sad etc...a whole sampling...and upload them for you...are you willing to spend an hour of your time over the next day or two, when you are just sitting around, or when you are typing or whatever to listen to the music?


Smells Like teen Spirit
In Bloom
Come As You Are
Lithium
Breed
Polly
Drain You
Something In The Way
Heart Shaped Box
Dumb
All Apologies
You Know You're Right
School
About A Girl
Floyd The Barber
Stay Away
Dive
Sliver
Been A Son
Lounge Act
Aneurysm
Rape Me
Frances Farmer
PennyRoyal Tea
Here She Comes Now - (velvet underground)
Jesus Doesn't Want For A Sunbeam (Vaselines)
Man Who Sold The World (David Bowie)
Plateau (Meat Puppets)
Oh Me (Meat Puppets)
Lake Of Fire (Meat Puppets)
Where did you Sleep Last Night (Leadbelly)
Love Buzz
Son Of A Gun (Vaselines)



If you are willing to do that, i will upload a zip file for you.

And Kurt Cobain was a depressed soul who shot himself and left a child fatherless. Im not judging him for that but it hardly implies a winning mentality!

true, but does changing your whole face, turning yourself white, sitting in trees with an umbrella, living in an amusement park, dangling your baby out a window and taking 8 different heavy prescription drugs every single day, leading to your overdose that leaves three children fatherless, imply a winning mentality? :wink:

 

[elegant20]

Jackson's mother, Katherine, is not in the best of shape to care for children, correct? Isn't her health not in the best condition? I mean, she is 79 years old! I don't think Katherine is a suitable mother, let alone a parent since her health has deteriorated over the years.

 

[Flashy]

Flashy, with all that typing and wanking to porn I'm amazed your wrist joints still function! :biggrin1:

I would also suggest that both Elvis and The Beatles were POP!

I am getting carpal tunnel from the typing :wink:...fortunately i do not wank nearly as much as i upload stuff for others...otherwise i'd be in real trouble :biggrin1:

Elvis definitely was not pop...many of the Beatles songs i agree would be pop, yet they were "pop-rock"...

since pop is short for "popular", by definition anything that sells alot of records is pop...but i think we all know they have come to mean different things (pop, R&B, Blues, Rock, etc.)

 

[Skull Mason]

this is the fallacy of basing implied importance on "web search/googling" etc.

Theyre skewed to the living/active.

so, come on my friend. :smile:

I'm not going to talk much about this as I get what you are saying, and I wasn't providing it as proof of anything, except for the simple impact that his death immediately had on the internet and cell phone carriers. Not something to sneeze at.

not really. he was a generational icon. with all due respect, you are only 27 (wish i was :wink meaning you were likely born in 1982 or so. you were 9 or so when Nirvana arrived & were in diapers when MJ came out with Thriller.

Don't sleep on me flashy. I was the youngest of 3 boys so from my earliest days I was subjected to everything 1980s. I also began learning the guitar after my dad became sick and died soon after 1991. I had dozens of guitar magazines at any given time and was fairly obsessed with it as an escape, as well as music itself. I buried myself in music, starting with Hendrix and Zeppelin and continuing on to Van Halen and the rest. So I can see why you would assume that some clueless ten year old wouldn't fully appreciate music or what Nirvana was doing but I assure you that was not me. Cobain was a regular on the covers of those magazines, so I was entirely aware of what he was doing and his impact. As a child who immediately became somewhat the man of the household (had to take care of my mother as my brothers were away or in college at that point), I found plenty that I could relate to in not only Cobain's music but most other music as well. It was my sanctuary.

Just as an aside, and I am not taking a swipe at Cobain here, but when first learning the guitar Nirvana is almost always the first songs you learn because of their musical simplicity.

you likely were too young to remember that kids started dressing differently, in more grungy gear. all the fashion magazines started trying to adopt grunge styles, "heroin chic" became a modeling style (yuck) culture magazines all over the place were trying to "understand" grunge. Cobain was labeled, (against his will) the "Spokesman of his generation". nobody ever labeled MJ that. he was the "King of Pop".

I was not too young for this, I remember it clearly. I was in middle school and was very aware of the trend that Nirvana was causing. Death to 80s rock and style, and welcome grunge. I remember because we all went through different phases; dressing in bell bottoms and listening to 1960s and 1970s rock and it being cool, and then the takeover of Nirvana. Almost seemed like the early 90s equivalent of the counterculture movement in the 1960s.


MJ was never looked upon as a generational barometer of what was causing kids angst,unhappiness, or anger, the way Cobain was. Cobain was more relatable. Jackson came from a "showbiz" family model. he was made a star from the time he was young, (which brought unique problems) Cobain was an "every kid", divorced parents, marginalized in school by nasty jocks, angry, confused, who turned to music and started a band to express that.

Well, not everybody has to experience heartache or tragedy to be able to be impacted by music. There are probably a lot more people who were just happy to hear a fun song to sing and dance to who weren't depressed. But here is the thing, Cobain was more relatable to the suburban whiteboy angst. I grew up in a historically mixed race town and the school system I was in had a slight majority in favor of African American. Black people didn't relate to Cobain. Cobain appealed to a certain niche in the demographic of America. Michael appealed to every race, age, and nationality across the planet.


Very few people started dressing like MJ, (unless they wanted to look really bizarre) but millions of kids dressed "grungy" since it was "accessible" a pair of ripped jeans, converse shoes, long sleeve tshirt or a plaid buttondown & longer hair, with no hair spray/gel. it was easy & identifiable

Schools has to ban white gloves because so many children were wearing them to school after Michael debuted them. And these millions of kids you are referring to still, for the most part, were suburban white kids.


He was also passionately vocal about cultural vies of the type you never heard Jackson express, since Jackson did not want to offend the paying public. Cobain did not care. would Jackson ever put this in his liner notes, like Cobain did?

"if any of you in any way hate homosexuals, people of different color, or women, please do this one favor for us-leave us the fuck alone! Don't come to our shows and don't buy our records"

Props to Cobain for that, but it isn't like he was the only musician to ever not give a fuck.

Cobain's depression & sadness were relatable. Jackson's wasn't. Jackson lived in an amusement park with chimps & climbed trees & got plastic surgery. Cobain lived in a pretty simple (though nice) house, had a wife (who was a bitch) and kid and could not escape from the manic depression & bi-polar disorder that he suffered, not to mention the heroin that he started taking to dull the pain.

Cobain is & was far more relatable, for the average kid, than Jackson ever was.

I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing.

highly debatable. living outside of his era, is what Jackson's legacy will now experience. frankly, without the outsized personality alive, all that will be left to focus on will be the pictures of him and the music.

you can look at two pictures of Cobain, notably these
http://bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/kurt-cobain-photo.jpg

http://ratinacage.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kurtcobain3.jpg

they say everything. nothing more needs to be said

Timeless pictures indeed, but I would have to say that the majority of people have never seen them, nor even know who those pictures are of. Most people weren't into music or fans of the alternative/grunge era like we were. Freakish or not, everyone knows a picture of Michael Jackson when they see it, of ALL his incarnations. Probably the most recognizable man on Earth.

there is not one picture of Jackson like that, precisely because Jackson was not relatable. he changed colors, noses, hair *TEXTURE* & style, facial implants. everything he was had to be blown up, changed, cloaked in explosions, smoke, glitter & fireworks. he needed epaulets, sequins...etc.

Bro you have no fucking clue what you are talking about nothing else needs to be said

Cobain did not need any of that. in fact, that is what made Cobain so much more.

it is his legacy which is more immediate & important. but the fact that everyone has listened to MJ's songs or heard them everywhere is precisely because they are so common. not everyone has heard Cobain. Cobain's songs are a treasure to be discovered. you cannot find them being shown on every possible outlet all the time.

Which is precisely why I have been saying that the impact comparison is not even close.

I have heard every single Jackson album. i can find probably 10 songs i really like alot.

Damn that is unfortunate man. Every song on Off The Wall is phenomenal to me. And even the albums that you trash after Thriller (even including Thriller?!?!?) had some great fucking songs.


most people, i would say even you (possibly) may in fact have heard a few Nirvana songs, likely the most known ones. Teen Spirit, Come As You Are, Lithium. but, have you ever heard Polly? All Apologies? Old Age? Dumb? Do Re Mi? Something In The Way? (maybe you have, most have not)

As I mentioned before, I was playing all of those songs of my guitar in the early 90s. But I agree, most have not, which is again why I say that the impact of Michael's death will be felt by far more, much deeper.

it's the line that "you don't find music, music finds you", that provides the difference.
You could not miss Jackson in the 80s. it was too pervasive. you were coated with it. whether you chose to hear it was not an option. you had to listen to it everywhere. Nirvana was not like that. you had to make an effort to hear it... it required an investment.

I still think you are just further proving my point. cont...

 

[Xcuze]

Flashy

I'm sure Nirvana have made some amazing music. But it's just not my thing. I'm sure I worship many acts that you have never bothered to listen to either. Because they're essentially pop. That's fine, each to their own.

But the point I was making was in relation to their general, overall popularity. Nirvana were at the forefront of a music and fashion trend(grunge). But they were not the sole act so you can't give them the entire credit. Plus it didn't last that long anyway. It's not a trend thats looked back on with great affection either.

In terms of cultural icons that are greatly loved and sadly missed I would not put him in the premier league. His death only created a big fuss because of the way he died. And because of the kind of fans that they attracted; obsessive, needy, emotional, melodramatic etc Then there was Courtney Love, who kept the drama in the news for years after. Don't underestimate her part in his notoriety.

Dissect all you like but....MJ was massively more famous, popular and successful than Kurt. And he's been in peoples lives for 10 times longer too.

 

[Skull Mason]

indeed it fused a gap between r&b & pop. but Nirvana fused a gap between rock & punk.

Well, I suppose so. But then again, r&b and pop are essentially running the music industry right now, and it is safe to say without the ground that Michael Jackson broke in the early 80s that it would not be that way today. ROck is dead and has been for some time right now.

untrue. there was *ONE* video, Billie jean, that was the 1st in heavy rotation. michael was the first to drive heavy rotation of black artists

tina turner, donna summer, eddie grant & musical youth all were aired before him though.

I said essentially, not the absolute first, but the first one to get any notice and that is even worthy of mention. A man I coach football with told me the story of how him and his boys used to hang out and play basketball at this guy's house next to the field where we coach. He said one day they went in and saw the Billy Jean video and to them it was truly a historic moment, like "finally MTV is recognizing..."

how do you figure?
Jackson was done as a relevant "artist" when Nirvana came along in 91.
And what kind of "influence"? Cultural or musical?

For Michael, both. Don't forget his worldwide impact and charitable/philanthropic endeavors.

Jackson had become a clown by 1991, removed from his artistic influence. can you say that for the past 18 years Jackson has been anything other than a sad parody, climbing trees, hanging babies out windows, making them wear masks and a host of other bizarre behaviors?

And yet he STILL is loved by more people on Earth than any other musical icon.

what musical records did Jackson break? Aside from the highest grossing album in history (Thriller), i do not see others. maybe a couple of records for # of grammys for Thriller and for 13 over all grammy's. He had 13 #1 singles...nowhere near the Beatles or Elvis.

Well, aside from highest selling album in history, I find that a record 5 #1 singles off a single album, Bad, that you vehemently dismissed, is quite a feat. Also, Billie Jean and Beat It (which the kick ass solo from the great Eddie Van Halen) appearing simultaneously in the top 5 is quite something. I don't have to bore you with stats though a quick search will yield many of his unprecedented accomplishments. 4 of this albums debuted at #1 after Thriller including Bad and Dangerous. He also supported more charities than any other musician, including Cancer Society, AIDS Project etc...


well, when i see suicides caused by his death, i will amend my statement :smile:

so? I didn't blink an eye when Jackson died. it was a news item. He's gone. sadly, but no more. My folks said "oh too bad" & they enjoyed some of his early stuff.

the fact is, that most people do not "blink an eye" when someone dies, no matter how famous. just because it coats the media does not mean it affects more people than it did. for every person who went out there to hang out at the hospital where MJ died, there are billions who did not & just said. "Oh, too bad".

I can guarantee you that plenty of starving moms dads aunts uncles and grandparents in Calcutta do not care that MJ is dead, any more than they cared when Cobain died.

Yeah but that is Calcutta, there are plenty of people in Seattle that didn't give a shit when Cobain died.

hmmm. so one of the most talented musicians ever, whose career spanned under 3 years, yet produced a sea-change in music, is actually on the level of influence of a glorified model who was on a tv show for one season 32 years ago who did not produce one significant thing of any type ever again? I think you really are reaching with that one, my friend.

I think that entire statement is a reach right there, Flashy. Including calling Cobain one of the most talented Musicians ever, especially if you are going to dismiss Michael Jackson as a musician. Lil Wayne has also produced a sea change in music right now. Hell, 3 years isn't enough to even tell how good or bad one could have been (playing devil's advocate here). What if he ran out of material and the rest of his music would have sucked? Plenty of bands can be electric for a few years then die out, and I wouldn't doubt this could have happened to Nirvana, as MOST bands fizzle out and don't last. Another testament to Michael's career that spanned 40+ years.


how were they copycat suicides? Indeed, there may have been some cases that were copycat, by those who were not fans, but the vast majority were serious fans. it is different between some who are looking to commit suicide & then a figure does it, than between someone who literally worshipped the figure himself & had so much of their identity shaped by that person. in that case it is an extreme type of identifying with the person.


not all of the Cobain suicides shot themselves. in fact, most did not.
The bottom line is, Cobain's death was seen as a suicide (alleged), so people killed themselves. Michael's death (thus far, although I don't know if I agree) has not been seen as a suicide, so it is probably not going to see suicides as a result.

is massive drug addiction & overdose considered natural causes? :wink:

That is why I said relative to a shotgun blast in the face. If you ask a 1000 people which way of death is a natural cause, shotgun blast to the grill or heart attack, 1000 people are going to say heart attack, unless they are Nirvana fans (jk).

people did not faint when they saw Cobain? Is that a line of demarcation for impact & importance? Maybe those fans were simply less prone to hysteria. Girls faint at the Jonas Brothers, Hanson & Zac Efron. Are they more impactful than Kurt Cobain?

I would say no :wink:

Little teeny boppers may faint when they see those people you mention there, but I haven't really ever seen it. But grown people who are fully emotionally secure and mature collapse at the sight of Michael Jackson. Only Jesus could provoke such an intense reaction in people, and only Adam Lambert will be able to do that in the coming years.

 

[Skull Mason]

btw, Skull...have you ever listened to any Nirvana beyond the known three or four songs (just curious)

see above posts but yes.


though I wouldn't mind that zip file...

 

[Flashy]

though I wouldn't mind that zip file...

LOL...fair enough...

it is mostly just Nevermind, and a selection of stuff from Bleach, Incesticide, as well as a few great covers and other stuff (Cobain with Screaming Trees/Lanegan, some home recordings of do re mi, old age, etc.) and half the video of the famed Amsterdam concert...I'll get to work on it now and upload and send it to you via PM :wink: