Michigan and Florida: Fingering those Responsible

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by HazelGod, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. HazelGod

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    I don't always tend to concur with Roland Martin over at CNN, but in this case he's dead-on. (text copied below)

    There is nobody to blame for the current situation with primaries but the politicians in those two states...particularly governors.Crist and Granholm who had the power of veto at their disposal and chose NOT to use it. To see those two on TV whining about how their states are somehow being shortchanged is utterly sickening.

    To the people of FL and MI:
    If this whole goat-rodeo bothers you at all, get on the phone with your state legislators and your governor's office. Today. Let them know that it's their fault your votes aren't being weighted, and it's THEIR responsibility to fix what THEY have fucked up. Their jobs are to represent YOU, the people...not their party, not each other...YOU. And they have failed you in the worst manner. Enough with the whining and finger-pointing...they acted with full knowledge of consequence, and now they need to make it right.


     
  2. Skull Mason

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    I just skimmed through that, because to me none of it matters. No one had any idea the race was going to be this close. This is unique and all those rules should go out the window, and they should count fl and mich or have a re-vote. In a race like this, every state should count. Yeah they got fucked over by the powers that be, but so what. Let them get theirs. May the best [wo]man win.
     
  3. Domisoldo

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    In addition, those responsible might actually get off on fingering.
     
  4. SteveHd

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    HG, I generally agree.

    Viewed in hindsight, the Legislature should have stayed within the "rules". Keep in mind that in 2004, the Florida primary was irrelevant: the races in both parties had been decided by then. That was on everyone's mind this year.

    I somewhat like the idea (in the article) of seating a 50/50 mix of delegates. I dislike most of the "do over" ideas.
     
  5. Skull Mason

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    I mean damn just let the motherfuckers votes count what is the big deal
     
  6. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Roland Martin is in fact way off. The fact that you concur with him is surprising. It has been pointed out, and I'll point it out again. Republicans fought to get the Primary Move shoved as a rider on a bill that Democrats wanted due to the election debacle of 2000. The Bill was an Amendment to have a Paper Trail for Optical Scan Elections. Democrats fought hard to get the Primary Change Rider Removed but were out voted by Republicans.

    please see the other post
    Gov. Crist as a Republican of course signed it. Democrats wanted the Paper Trail Bill signed, but Democrats were strong armed into breaking the DNC rules with the Republicans. The Republicans solved their RNC violation problems by punishing MI and FL by cutting the delegates awarded to the state in half.

    The DNC stripped all delgates from MI and FL. Now, you and Roland are correct in asserting that Gov. Crist is disingenious when pleading to let the votes count when he helped violate the rules, but that's where accuracy in Roland's argument ends. Republican legislators hold the responsibility in FL for shoving the Primary Change Rider on the Bill and the Democratic Voters in FL can do nothing by calling or writing to change how they vote or will address this situation. (Besides giving them a big laugh with every Democratic Call)

    The DNC holds responsibility also, specifically Howard Dean and his actions. The Republicans got their act together but Dean didn't get it together. Dean and the DNC can claim "rules" and "violation" and point fingers but in the end, no matter who is to blame Howard Dean will look like he was the head of a mess that he should have resolved like the Republicans were able to.

    The whole tenor and tone of Rolands blog is derogatory. He calls folks from MI and FL arrogant. Roland is misinformed and he needs to do research before forming an opinion. The voters did not ask to move up the Primary. The Legislature took it upon themselves to do that. The FL Legislature has no referendum or election mandate voted on by the people. Perhaps Republicans were arrogant to break the rules but they're amusement with the Democratic race keeps them from being phased by Roland's scolding.

    Roland's comments are also derogatory because if we as Democrats want to discuss the Primary Calendar and what state should be allowed to be first then we should have that discussion outside of a tightly contested Presidential Campaign, in house among Democrats. Not this bickering. Howard Dean is the worst leader I've seen. I'm not talking about whether he is right, I'm talking about leadership skills, because you can be ever so right and lose what you are fighting for.

    Lastly, Roland offers a solution. His solution is nothing short of ridiculous and frankly I wish he would stop embarassing himself by saying it. Is this a Presidential Election where people vote and the candidate with the most votes wins or what? My bad, maybe Roland meant that he wanted the DNC to do what the RNC did and just not award the states as many delegates...yes that must be what he meant. (the RNC "cut each state's allocation in half rather than stripping them entirely.")

    Because splitting the delegates in half to give Obama half and Clinton half is a joke and leaves the issue exactly where it was: Let the Primary results stand, Revote, or don't count them.

    Roland needs to stop wasting air time with this on CNN and space online.
     
  7. HazelGod

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    Yes, it does carry that tone, and rightfully so...but if you honestly believe it's aimed at the voters in those states rather than the states' politicians responsible for this boondoggle in the first place, then you either need some serious remedial reading comprehension training or you need to revisit the parable about stones and glass houses.
     
  8. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Read everything I wrote and then try again. Roland is way off and I pointed out why. He needs to do his homework and you need to read.
     
  9. vince

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    I agree with you that Roland meant the politicians when he said "arrogant folks". But your ad hominem debating technique is uncalled for. It is used too frequently around here and turns what could be interesting discussions into boring flame wars. In fact HG, you said something about it yourself earlier this week.
     
  10. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    I said: "Perhaps Republicans were arrogant to break the rules but they're amusement with the Democratic race keeps them from being phased by Roland's scolding."

    Guys...I clearly explained that it was the Republican Legislators not the Democrats or the voters. I also pointed out that the voters did not ask the lawmakers to do it. By the very nature of Roland just saying "folks" and mentioning Bill Nelson a Democratic Senator by name when Sen. Nelson tried diligently not to break the rules it proves Roland doesn't have all the facts for his argument.

    Roland's derogatory tone is misplaced when you understand the full story.
     
  11. HazelGod

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    Vince, you need a better understanding of ad hominem.

    It's a diversionary tactic of impugning the credibility of the opponent in lieu of addressing the arguments themselves. It's usually the resort for those who have adopted an essentially indefensible position, or those whose purpose is to create conflict rather than engage in actual discourse.

    I did not resort to attacking Trinity as a person...I observed that by intentionally interpreting Roland's remarks as being aimed at the citizens of the states, rather than their politicians who are actually at fault, he's not only ignoring the actual issue, he's being disingenuous at best (glass houses) and moronic at worst (needs work on reading comprehension). In either case, his "analysis" is so completely tainted by such specious nonsense as to be worthless for honest discussion.

    It may seem like a fine line to some, but there is a world of difference between labeling someone an idiot and referring to something they've asserted as being idiotic.

    You're under the mistaken impression that I give a shit about the parties at all. Roland contends, and I concur, that they are ALL to blame, and that sole responsibility for this fiasco lies with them, most of all with the two governors who could have each singlehandedly avoided this trainwreck. End of story.
     
  12. Ethyl

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    Just thought i'd add that if you want to hold all legislators in those states responsible you'll be "fingering" 308 people. That's a lot of lube.

    That's all. Carry on.
     
  13. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    You did not comprehend what I wrote regarding the voters and the Democrats. Again Roland is misinformed and your post shows you glom on to a misinformed joke of an argument. Roland contends that Democrats simply did not request the Republican Governor not to sign the Bill (Again a laugh fest meeting). Everyone who understands what happened knows ALL weren't to blame. Everyone but you and Roland.
     
  14. Domisoldo

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    Why does everything boil down to dicks, pussies and assholes?
     
  15. snoozan

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    J-lube.
     
  16. No_Strings

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    a/s/l?
     
  17. Drifterwood

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    Why on earth can't registered supporters/members of a party simply have a vote, one vote on the same day, with the winner being the Pres candidate for that party.

    What a circus this is.
     
  18. SteveHd

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    DW, the circus is more fun to watch. :smile:

    Seriously, I have thought about that. It's appealing: it would get it all over with a lot quicker.
     
  19. Drifterwood

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    Yes it's fun perhaps, but it's a lottery. No two States are really voting on the same things at the same time. OK you have the super whatevers, but you know what I mean. A week is a long time in politics.

    This system ultimately undermines any of the candidates, Federalism and all, but you don't do this for the Presidential elections.
     
  20. vince

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    Hazel God- I think I understand the meaning of ad hominem quite well. According to my daughter the Latin expert (I was just on the phone with her :smile:), it translates as argument to the man or against the man. In my opinion telling an adult, who obviously not stupid, that they need remedial training or calling them moronic is just such a tactic. He has a different interpretation of what was written than you do. That's all. It wasn't all that clearly written in the first place. Explain your position politely and if you still can't understand each other, move on.

    Sorry to hijack the thread. Carry on.

    Personally, I think the lawmakers in both states should carry the can for this mess. They were like kids jostling to be first in line for the candy. The DNC- well I wouldn't exactly call Howard Dean a great leader either.

    In my opinion, watching how they sort this out is going to be one the more interesting fights this year.

    Great campaign isn't it?
     
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