Michigan and Florida: Fingering those Responsible

HazelGod

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HazelGod

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You did not comprehend what I wrote regarding the voters and the Democrats.

I understood it just fine, but it's tangential. You're singling out one party from the whole, and absolving the other. I don't buy that personally, but it really doesn't matter...it's just splitting hairs.

The entire point of my OP was that the people who were elected to represent the interests of the citizens of the states of Florida and Michigan are the ones who bear the blame for their disenfranchisement...and should shoulder the burdens of rectification. Not the DNC, and not and candidate's campaign.
 

gjorg

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I am so fucking sick and tired of fucking Folida playing politics with politics.
The OP is correct here but there should be punishment!
 

Trinity

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I understood it just fine, but it's tangential. You're singling out one party from the whole, and absolving the other. I don't buy that personally, but it really doesn't matter...it's just splitting hairs.

The entire point of my OP was that the people who were elected to represent the interests of the citizens of the states of Florida and Michigan are the ones who bear the blame for their disenfranchisement...and should shoulder the burdens of rectification. Not the DNC, and not and candidate's campaign.

I could agree with that if that was what Roland said. That isn't what he said. His whole blog...everything he asserts shows he did not have a clear understanding of what happened in FL, ie mentioning Sen. Nelson asking the Governor not to sign (Any analyst who understands the politics of the voting on the Paper Trail Bill understand that why that wasn't even feasible) then Roland talks about all the lawmakers being arrogant for daring to move up the Primary when the Democrats fought against it! How are the Democrats arrogant? Ridiculous. On two counts Roland's argument doesn't hold water. And the scolding he gives is only making Republicans laugh as the chomp their popcorn.

Finally, the clincher is his solution...which is basically to pretend to solve the problem. If this is a race that is won by contest and the candidate with most votes wins then that solution is a joke. Shouldn't you just not seat the Delegates in that case? On principle? I would respect that more. People who want to "say" they stand for something but really don't...that's the kind of stuff they do.

Roland's whole blog is a joke because he didn't do his homework. I'm still surprised you think its brilliant.
 

HazelGod

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I could agree with that if that was what Roland said. That isn't what he said. His whole blog...everything he asserts shows he did not have a clear understanding of what happened in FL, ie mentioning Sen. Nelson asking the Governor not to sign

Finally, the clincher is his solution...which is basically to pretend to solve the problem.

Roland's whole blog is a joke because he didn't do his homework. I'm still surprised you think its brilliant.

Are you intentionally being obtuse, or are you really this dense? I'm asking honestly, because you comport yourself like an intelligent person but your inability to comprehend context seems oddly incongruous.

First, I never said it was brilliant...I noted that his sentiments were in concurrence with my own, re: where the blame lies.

Second, Roland never asserts that Senator Nelson asked Governor Crist not to sign the bill. He's making the perfectly valid point that it's ludicrous for the senator to publicly whine about his constituents being shortchanged now when he had ample opportunity to prevent this fiasco beforehand. At the very least, he could have gone on record as voicing that the legislature and governor were acting to disenfranchise the state's voters by enacting that bill. Yet, nary a word was heard.

Finally, of course the "solution" being proposed only pretends to solve the problem. Roland was speaking flippantly tongue-in-cheek, obviously not to meaning be taken literally. Anyone who read the entire piece would have easily gathered this from context.

As I stated before, your characterizations of these remarks seems disingenuous at best, and moronic at worst.
 

transformer_99

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I still don't see the big deal over this, when the vote happens, what was it a week or two from when it would've happened. While FL and MI do have some decent delegate counts, I really think it would only serve to offset Obam's 100+ delegate count, so instead of it being this close, it might even be dead even. I want my vote to count, but not at the expense of it and it resembling the past bullshit FL has created for itself. The politicians in this state have got to be the dumbest f*cks anywhere. It's not the voter's, it's the jerks in charge of administrating the vote. What to do though ? These people are so woven into the state government there's no ridding the state of them ?
 

amhersthungboi

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Why on earth can't registered supporters/members of a party simply have a vote, one vote on the same day, with the winner being the Pres candidate for that party.

What a circus this is.

I would agree with that sentiment entirely. A full-scale national primary may be a bit unwieldy, and grossly favor big states, but something needs to be done. I like the concept of rotating regional primaries (e.g. a New England primary, deep South primary, Potamic/Mid-Atlantic, Mid-West, Mountain, Pacific). Have them a week apart over the course of 6 or so weeks, get it done with, and push the opening primaries back until late March or April. Conventions in the summer, November general election.


New Hampshire and Iowa would bitch but, honestly, who cares? Their "right" to first in the nation status is only self-proclaimed, and the parties have been too pussy-footed to challenge it.

From the perspective of an American living abroad, the Australians think we are absolutely crazy to have an election cycle that lasts this long to, in essence, just pick the party leader. Remember that this is only the regular season to the general election's Super Bowl. You think there's hype now? Wait will we know who both nominees are and then go through months of them bashing each other over the head.

By contrast, the Aussie election cycle is 6 weeks, over and done ... and even THAT seems like an eternity.
 

Trinity

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Are you intentionally being obtuse, or are you really this dense? I'm asking honestly, because you comport yourself like an intelligent person but your inability to comprehend context seems oddly incongruous.

First, I never said it was brilliant...I noted that his sentiments were in concurrence with my own, re: where the blame lies.

Second, Roland never asserts that Senator Nelson asked Governor Crist not to sign the bill. He's making the perfectly valid point that it's ludicrous for the senator to publicly whine about his constituents being shortchanged now when he had ample opportunity to prevent this fiasco beforehand. At the very least, he could have gone on record as voicing that the legislature and governor were acting to disenfranchise the state's voters by enacting that bill. Yet, nary a word was heard.

Finally, of course the "solution" being proposed only pretends to solve the problem. Roland was speaking flippantly tongue-in-cheek, obviously not to meaning be taken literally. Anyone who read the entire piece would have easily gathered this from context.

As I stated before, your characterizations of these remarks seems disingenuous at best, and moronic at worst.

Are actually going to defend this blog again? You're argument gets weaker each time you attempt to defend it. And you think the bigger words you use the more intelligent you appear? No. If you really believe this blog has any merit then it is you who can not comprehend what Roland Martin said.

You've read the points Roland got completely wrong. And the solution is so silly you now admit it.

Roland's view of the MI and FL issue leave significant points of the issue out. Therefore the whole blog is just a waste of time. Roland Martin has no idea where blame lies...he didn't get the whole story to form an informed opinion.

BTW, I never said Roland state that Sen. Nelson asked the Govenor not to sign. I said that Roland said that all Senators had to do was ask the Governors not to sign the bills - that is so laughable. I don't know when you and Roland are going to get this, but I'll say it again. In FL The Governor is a Republican and Sen. Nelson being a Democrat...asking the Governor not to sign after a passing vote is just Stupid. You telling Voters to call Republicans regarding the Democratic Primary is Ridiculous.

Finally, you show yourself to be just as misinformed as Roland. Sen. Nelson didn't whine after the fact. He has a whole time-line of well voiced opposition to the Primary Move Up and documented efforts to show he challenged the Governor and the DNC including a lawsuit last year. You should also do your homework...and when you do...let Roland know.
 

MovingForward

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Roland Martin is in fact way off. The fact that you concur with him is surprising. It has been pointed out, and I'll point it out again. Republicans fought to get the Primary Move shoved as a rider on a bill that Democrats wanted due to the election debacle of 2000. The Bill was an Amendment to have a Paper Trail for Optical Scan Elections. Democrats fought hard to get the Primary Change Rider Removed but were out voted by Republicans.


Yeah, Looking at the vote, I can see the Democrats fought really hard.

Florida Lawmen vote to move the Primary up...

118-0 in the Florida House
37-2 in the Florida Senate
 

Trinity

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Yeah, Looking at the vote, I can see the Democrats fought really hard.

Florida Lawmen vote to move the Primary up...

118-0 in the Florida House
37-2 in the Florida Senate

I've already responded to you on the other thread when you posted this before.

The Primary Move up was a rider on the Paper Trail Bill. The Hard Fight came when the Democrats proposed bills to remove the rider and the Dems reached across the aisle to the Republicans to no avail to remove it. Anyone who understands Politics understands how that works.

Previous Post
 

HazelGod

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I've already responded to you on the other thread when you posted this before.

You seem to be under the impression that this somehow justifies their support of the measure, when in fact they demonstrated extremely poor judgement and utterly failed their constituents.

If I served you a cowflop with some cheese, a slice of tomato, and some lettuce on a bun and told you it was a burger, would you still go ahead and eat it even though one of its critical elements was pure bullshit?
 

MovingForward

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You seem to be under the impression that this somehow justifies their support of the measure, when in fact they demonstrated extremely poor judgement and utterly failed their constituents.

If I served you a cowflop with some cheese, a slice of tomato, and some lettuce on a bun and told you it was a burger, would you still go ahead and eat it even though one of its critical elements was pure bullshit?


Looks like my response is not needed.
 

Trinity

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You seem to be under the impression that this somehow justifies their support of the measure, when in fact they demonstrated extremely poor judgement and utterly failed their constituents.

If I served you a cowflop with some cheese, a slice of tomato, and some lettuce on a bun and told you it was a burger, would you still go ahead and eat it even though one of its critical elements was pure bullshit?


Listing the numbers of the vote and implying that the measure passed without a fight was inaccurate by MovingForward.

This is a political thread. All I ask is we discuss issues in the terms of politics. Anyone who knows about what happens in Congress and the Legislature understands what happens with Riders. There was a fight. The Vote in no way takes away what happened within the entire Legislative Session.

"Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house."​
 

SteveHd

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I am so fucking sick and tired of fucking Folida playing politics with politics.
Whatever.
The OP is correct here but there should be punishment!
Punishment? I'll suggest one: eject the state from the Union! Florida is large enough to be an independent country. Once ejected it won't be a part of USA national elections. "Out of sight ... out of mind!"
 

kalipygian

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Whatever.Punishment? I'll suggest one: eject the state from the Union! Florida is large enough to be an independent country. Once ejected it won't be a part of USA national elections. "Out of sight ... out of mind!"

I have some relatives in St. Augustine whom I think would be happy to again be a Spanish colony, and have Juan Carlos as king. There would probably be a an irredentist campaign to regain the former parts of Florida which are now in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (still called the Florida parishes).:biggrin1:

Alternatively, there was once an East Florida Republic based in Fernandina that considered itself part of Mexico.

Somewhat more seriously, I think seating the Florida delegates would be the fairest thing to do, and I slightly favor Obama over Hillary.
 

gjorg

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Whatever.Punishment? I'll suggest one: eject the state from the Union! Florida is large enough to be an independent country. Once ejected it won't be a part of USA national elections. "Out of sight ... out of mind!"

You know what? It could just snap off the country and float out into the Atlantic!
 

simcha

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Florida needs to be given to Cuba and we need to build an electric high-voltage fence with razor-wire to keep the people out of the rest of the country. (I'm saying that and I have close relatives living there.)

Floridians can't have an honest election to save their lives. They've been screwing up for more than 8 years.

Ohioans aren't much better. They're troubles are just newer, only 4 years...

And Michigan, who knows what happened there...