Misinterpretation: The Bible and Homosexuality

[madame_zora]

MADAME ZORA. Consider this: I am these days being deluged by all sorts of evidence of the dysfunctionality of my government and a host of other institutions that make up the society of which I am a part. I HAVE NO INTENTION TO DISMISS THE WHOLE LOT AND START WONDERING WHY OTHERS DO NOT FOLLOW SUIT. This rotten system is part of me and I am part of it. I would rather look for the signs of hope amid the admitted mess and concentrate on keeping that hope alive.

Yes, I have a good friend who tells me the same thing about his religion- he'd rather stay within and work to improve the things that have gone foul. I can respect that position, and I think both our positions have merit- perhaps both are even needed. I ran into some issues I couldn't resolve, and I chose to leave. I now stand on the outside yapping about the problems to draw attention to them, fearing that many will just go along, not questioning.

Many who are Christians of different denominations find issues that are tough to resolve, but their religion still adds more to their life than it takes away. They resolve to stay and find what value they can, and perhaps work to change the things that don't make sense. Both of these positions are perfectly fine with me.

What I find intolerable is the MASSIVE amount of people who simply believe whatever they are told in church, because religion is such a foundational issue that they simply can't bear to have their basic paradigms challenged. As you said, our government is coming unglued right in front of us- it's a bad time to address problem which exist within our churches. It's too much for most people to bear. While I understand this very well, I can't help but acknowledge the detrimental effect this "blind obedience" has already had on the quality of MY life. If I do not desire to have my life limited and structured by someone else's church, tough shit. I doubt this would be very clear to someone who DOES. You personally don't wish to trample the rights of others, so you can't see it happening on a rather massive scale. It's just not okay to say "I don't believe in that" but then deny that it IS being done, in the name of the church to which you belong, and you offer no protest. (I don't mean "you" personally, I have no idea what your life is like, I mean the people who exhibit this behavior). I would think Christians would be shunning this kind of legislation the most!

You suggest that Christians dismiss science. Well, not the Christians I know. We embrace the findings of science and concentrate on being part of the discussion on how these scientific insights will and ought to be employed. You will find many of us loathe to declare as true those things which clearly contradict our experience and those things which are not remotely necessary for us to live productive and connected lives.
I DO NOT USUALLY POST WHEN YOU HAVE DRAWN SOME CONCLUSION ON THE BASIS OF YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS WHEN THAT CONCLUSION SEEMS TO IGNORE THE MANY PERSONS WHO FOR THEIR OWN VALID REASONS DO NOT SHARE YOUR VIEWS.

No, of course not every Christian support Intelligent Design, nor abstinence only programs in school, nor dissemination of misinformation about birth control. Despite this, Christians have NOT come out against those other Christians who DO support these measures. Until Christians stop supporting each other, even when they're doing harm, then other people really can't tell who is who.

What we need is a Christian movement against the bastardisation of the religion. That would be a good start. I don't oppose ANYONE'S right to believe what they choose, FOR THEMSELVES! When they make that jump from personal belief to legislation, then we have a problem. When they attempt to alter reality by teaching pseudo-science as a realistic possibility, so that our children don't know the difference between true and false, I'm going to speak out about that as aggressively as possible. I would think you would too. We should not be having a problem, if you really don't support special rights for Christians.

Having said all that, I will grant you the right to your opinions and will continue to read your posts. Just don't suggest that you have some corner on absolute truth; that's annoying whether it comes from a Christian or a non-Christian.

Corius, you are coming in late on a discussion that has been going on for months here, I am really not anti-religious. I am very much against those who use their religion to elevate the importance of their personal opinions into law. That's a very different thing, and as I've said, Chrisitans who don't believe that that behavior is representative of the will of Jesus really ought to be speaking up more. I have a great deal of reverence and respect for Jesus, despite what I may believe about virgin birth or ascension, I think his message gets lost in a lot of falsehood lately. I'm not talking about YOUR beliefs, I don't know you. I'm talking about the loud, vocal, and effective legislative campaign to force Christian "principles" like discrimination against gays, and overturning Roe vs. Wade, into OUR government. I'm a part of this country too, and I shouldn't have to bow to someone else's principles that have no meaning for me.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Having said all that, I will grant you the right to your opinions and will continue to read your posts. Just don't suggest that you have some corner on absolute truth; that's annoying whether it comes from a Christian or a non-Christian.

There may be an absolute truth. I'm not sure. I'm convinced that no Protestant denomination has it. :biggrin1:

Materialism is one of America's greatest sins. The Bible overtly condemns it, stating that man cannot know God if he chooses to live for his possessions and money.

I'll say it again: Christianity is not to be followed "à la carte."

Sins committed by the majority are ignored or trivialized. Sins committed by a minority are loathed and condemned.

 

[B_BristolBill]

I agree with this principle. Even Gandhi said "If you are a minority of but one, the truth is still the truth". The first step in breaching the religious/non-religous gap is that those claiming to belong to a "faith" must start acknowledging that their religious documents do not override science. While there are those who do, as we can see from our membership, they do appear to be the minority, when you watch the news.

Yes. Substantive reference thanks.

There's really no way to guess how societies would have developed had your suggestion been taken. JA pointed out that the Age of Enlightenment was really what allowed for our nation to be formed without being completely intermingled with religion. Of course, there are still traces of it there- people really don't like giving up the things in which they find familiarity. Progress and religion are at odds though, because their goals are very nearly opposite, at least as they are applied, the majority of the time. Galileo actually had to have some of his papers published in his students' names to avoid being declared a heretic. When I really started to understand how much religion has throttled science, it did start boiling my blood.

Again you get to the very heart of my argument about giving the "bible" in its most pervasively interpreted guise any modern credence. I cannot.

I cannot have a reasonable discussion with anyone who sees it as anything but an historical reference book. Much like the late Joseph Campbell I see the predilection for religiousity as hard-wired into human beings (many at any rate). There seems to be a need to brand people as one thing or another and in that phenomenon I find things get all too involved and convoluted.

This is certainly the case in our present society. While I can still find value in some of the concepts presented in the Bible and other religious documents, I acknowledge the human tendencies to desire superiority above kindness, judgement over forgiveness, dogma over reason.

I guess they're there as you submit but I see them as irrelvant to my view of things (and it's to this I address to my response to you).

I'm not so eager to dismiss religion, but it's applications really need some cleaning up.

I, on the other hand, am. I embrace spirituality where I am truly eager to dismiss religion.

I think it's at the very foundation of what ails an otherwise thoughtful and deliberately thinking society (at least on our very best days).

There may be an absolute truth. I'm not sure. I'm convinced that no Protestant denomination has it.

The Unitarian Universalists do from what I've experienced.

I'm a bit skeptical about the Roman Church however.

 

[B_BristolBill]

Let me quote from ( if you will) from the Unitarian Univeralist prayer book:

A Litany of Restoration:

"If, recognizing the interdependence of all life, we strive to build community, the stregnth we gather will be our salvation.

If you are black and I am white,

It will not matter.

If you are female and I am male,

It will not matter.

If you are older and I younger,

It will not matter.

If you are progressive and I conservative,

It will not matter.

If you are straight and I am gay,

It will not matter.

If you are Christian and I am Jewish,

It will not matter.

If we join spirits as brothers and sisters, the pain of our aloneness will be lessened, and that DOES matter.

In this spirit, we build community and move toward restoration."

- Marjorie Bowers-Wheatley


the italics and emphases are my own.

 

[madame_zora]

FWIW, my mother, who described herself as a "recovering Catholic" took me to Unitarian church until I was about 10, then we stopped going to church at all until she was "saved again" when I was about 12 and began going to a Methodist, then Southern Baptist church.

Once on my own, I chose the Christian assembly, then Church of God (yes, Pentecostal). I even attended a Four Square church for a while. I spent most of my 30s in an open-denominational church. MOST of my experience with religion has been very positive, at the individual level. However, there is no way in good conscience I could attend ANY church right now until Christians start supporting separation of church and state. Not only do I have serious religious questions (which would probably keep me out of church anyway), but I wholly condemn the attempt to force feed one view onto the public at large.

I experienced Christianity as a religion of attraction rather than promotion. I don't recall Jesus encouraging anyone to legislate his teachings.

IF I could support any religious or spiritiual movement to which I've been exposed (there might be plenty out there I don't know about) I would find myself all the way back to my beginnings, the Unitarian church. While I don't currently feel a need for gathering with like minded fellows to renew my committment to the planet and my fellow man, I think that's the one place I might find "like minded fellows".

 

[Full_Phil]

---IF I could support any religious or spiritiual movement to which I've been exposed (there might be plenty out there I don't know about) I would find myself all the way back to my beginnings---

Madame Zora---I have just started a book dealing with the great religions of the world (I've put Naughty's suggestion re: Promiscuity aside for the time being) and am beginning the chapter on Hinduism. I believe that you have said that you have an Indian background. What I have read so far is so beautiful, and makes so much sense (I admit that a lot of the teaching of my current religion seems to come directly from Hinduism, so I am biased), I think you might find some really great stuff in its outlook on the self, one's role in the world, and the whole idea of keeping what one builds through reincarnation. I'm surprised that it has taken me this long to look into it. As in anything, you take what comes out to you as keepable, and leave the rest.

 

[madame_zora]

Madame Zora---I have just started a book dealing with the great religions of the world (I've put Naughty's suggestion re: Promiscuity aside for the time being) and am beginning the chapter on Hinduism. I believe that you have said that you have an Indian background. What I have read so far is so beautiful, and makes so much sense (I admit that a lot of the teaching of my current religion seems to come directly from Hinduism, so I am biased), I think you might find some really great stuff in its outlook on the self, one's role in the world, and the whole idea of keeping what one builds through reincarnation. I'm surprised that it has taken me this long to look into it. As in anything, you take what comes out to you as keepable, and leave the rest.

Yes, I only listed actual churches which I've attended as a member, but I've been a student of eastern thought for a very long time. Hinduism is beautiful, gentle and serene, still the Vedas contain accounts of wars. Oddly, the followers of that faith do not see that as a reason to engage in war- India has done what it can to achieve its goals, such as they are, through peaceful means. Reincarnation makes a great deal of sense to me, as everything else in the world recycles. I don't necessarily subscribe the the way it is described through the Hindu faith, but I have ever been open to it conceptually.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast Hinduism with Catholicism, wouldn't it? They are both rich in pagentry- that would be a good beginning, but there are more Hindu Gods than persons occupying the planet, so it's a daunting task to undertake.

Zen Buddhism is more of a life philosophy than a religion per se. It would do me good to reread some of the books on my shelf on that.

I like your last sentence, I wish more people of all faiths would just accept that, and admit that we all do that as well.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

Wow - awesome thread. Great discussions of all of the points of view illustrated.

I've posted before (though a while back now) that I'm the "resident" ex-ex-gay... I went through a number of years in what's known as reparative therapy that I now know is widely considered quackery but at the time believed honestly was my only hope at escaping an eternity in Hell... Once I realized that it wasn't working (unfortunately after years of spiritual abuse, electro-shock therapy, and a hopelessness that you CANNOT imagine) I turned my bacl on the church and honestly on God as well. I had both middle fingers in the air right to his face with a firm request to leave me alone. He didn't.

While in that very state - bitter towards God - I honestly believe that God intervened on my behalf. I started having very surreal dreams; the type where you wake up wondering if you were dreaming or if that really just happened. I called myself exploring new religious ideas and started to open mindedly take opinions that I was always taught to be heresy into consideration. For example: I started (after looking at alternative points of view) questioning why exactly Lot - knowing fully well that Sodom & Gomorrah were supposedly full of 'mo's - would have offered his two daughters to appease the men who had been blinded by the angels and keep their attention while Lot, the angels, and the rest of Lot's family made their escape before the fire began to rain. What would a whole city of gay men wanted with his daughters? I began to understand that it wasn't homosexuality at all that resulted in God's wrath - it was rape. Remeber Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. If you love like this, you don't commit rape - wheter homo or hertosexual. Two men or two women who love and cherish each other in a committed relationship do not violate "the greatest commandment" as stated by Christ himself.

For JA: Romans was the most liberating, so I'll share. The first chapter (where the so called gay bashing verses occur) starts out talking about people who had left the teachings of Jesus and began to worship statues/animals/etc. Before any of the "men with men working that which is unseemly" is even mentioned, notice what Paul says in verse 26 - For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections. For what cause? God gave them up because they gave HIM up. Only after explaining that the people being referenced in Romans had turned their backs on God's love did Paul go on to do the "bashing". Notice that they "left the natural use of a woman" before commiting these acts? If the use of a woman is natural to you then you must be a heterosexual (or a lesbian, but I digress). So then what is TRULY being described here is what has already been mentioned - straight men worshiping false gods by having ritualistic homosexual sex with other straight men and perhaps male prositutes. I (and some of you reading here perhaps) was very liberated by the knowledge that this doesn't condemn me in the least. IN FACT... it was God's way of letting me know that I once WAS in this same catagoty. Though I was not putting my faith in statues or animals, I WAS putting faith in an idol: Church doctrine. I was more concerned with being the good little Pentecostal boy (thus "abusing myself" with electro-shock treatments) that I was raised to be than I was with a relationship with God. Religion created me to be a good church boy, but God created us all because he was lonely and desired realtionship with us. From my standpoint today - God wanted a relationship with me so bad he overlooked my middle fingers in his face and my cursing towards him and came at the very moment in my life where I was at my lowest - and rescued me. All that time I thought that God wasn't listening to me as I pleaded with him, and just look - he answered at the moment I probably deserved it the least.

MZ - classic insights as always.
Lex - He's listening; keep talking - you'll find what you're looking for and it just might not look the way you thought it would. It'll be your own special thing and doesn't have to conform to anyone else's ideas. Keep your neck straight and your head up, pahtnuh:smile:

 

[madame_zora]

Vinny, it seems I've known you long but never well, I didn't know any of this about your struggles. My heart welled up with a great sadness thinking of you going through that kind of external condemnation, and eventual self-condemnation- and elecrtoshock! I'm horrified.

What you have outlined here for all to see is the best explaination I have ever heard. While I and others who have not shared your struggle can look to find reasons why discrimination is wrong, you come through and cut through the fog with one heartfelt post. No God who loves his people could love some children less than others, even a good human parent could not do that.

Please don't stay away so long, we miss you and need you.

Much love,

Jana

 

[Corius]

VINNY SPIRUCCINO, I thank you for that very thoughtful post. You touch on many points that should be considered when we try to relate our faith to the very real questions our human sexuality poses. I am glad for you that you do not consider yourself to be alone in this task. My own journey into faith and into an appreciation of the gift of my own unique human sexuality was in a community and in a church that to an outsider (many of the folks who frequent this site surely) would not have seemed at all helpful in encouraging a healthy outlook. Except, I had parents and a young pastor who assured me that I was under no obligation to believe things which my mind and conscience could not approve. I knew, and I suspect they knew, that I was "different" and, believe me, it's very reassuring for a kid to be reminded that being different is alright. It's liberating to know, to face life knowing, that God loves me just as I am.

In the hands of unloving persons the Bible often becomes a burden. I am always amazed how many of Paul's best, most provocative, thoughts are ignored and some of his thoughts-seeking-clarity are emphasized to Paul's disadvantage and ours. The Bible used that way becomes an instrument of torment rather than comfort. Paul had to deal with a great many teachers who were going off in less than fruitful directions. Paul's counsel is simplicity itself: test the spirits to see whether they are of God. Where this right spirit animates persons you have great things happening: "..love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." (Galatians5:22-23) He firmly believed that the spirit of God is at work in us, flawed creature though we be, to bring us to the joy of the liberty which is ours as his sons and daughters. We are not alone, we belong to God.

Yes, God is still speaking; sometimes through the ancient texts, but God, it seems, can use some very unlikely messengers.

 

[Freddie53]

Remeber Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. If you love like this, you don't commit rape - wheter homo or hertosexual. Two men or two women who love and cherish each other in a committed relationship do not violate "the greatest commandment" as stated by Christ himself.

God wanted a relationship with me so bad he overlooked my middle fingers in his face and my cursing towards him and came at the very moment in my life where I was at my lowest - and rescued me. All that time I thought that God wasn't listening to me as I pleaded with him, and just look - he answered at the moment I probably deserved it the least.

:smile:

Vinny. God loves you and so do I.

Your whole post was awesomely inspiring. There were two sentences that say it all. But I will explain some more on the first. Jesus was asked by the authorities of his day what were the most important laws. They were talking about all the ritual stuff. Jesus gave his brilliant answer that says it all. Love God. Love your fellow man.

Yes God is a loving God. The Bible says that not only does he forget our transgressions, but he remembers them no more. Humans can forgive, but have a hard time forgetting. When we see God there will be no need for shame. God will not remember anything we did wrong.

Love,

Freddie

 

[Full_Phil]

Wow --- Lex - He's listening; keep talking - you'll find what you're looking for and it just might not look the way you thought it would. It'll be your own special thing and doesn't have to conform to anyone else's ideas. Keep your neck straight and your head up, pahtnuh

Wow, yourself. Your entire post outlined great stuff, AND also provided a path to sanity and self-respect. "It" will come from a place you least expect, and it will be your alone.

 

[Full_Phil]

---It would be interesting to compare and contrast Hinduism with Catholicism (etc)

Now that I getting into the book, I plan to try to compare ALL the major religions on a generally theoretical basis. Religions have such similarities, and it seems that the differences that we use as excuses to kill and chastise each other are so insignificant in the main. The book is "The World's Religions" by Huston Smith, and is a simple but poignant read.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

Aww... you guys are sweet. Thanks for your kind words. Don't feel too badly for me Jana; it happened for a reason. "And we know that ALL THINGS work together for the good of those that love God, and are called according to His purpose..."

Had I NOT had the horrible experience that I had, I would no doubt still be looking for God in stained glass windows. Instead - HE found ME at rock bottom. I had no where else to go but up. I really have a true friendship now with God; though I'm not at all religious. I go to church (for the last year and a half now actually), but not your typical church. Mine talks about Jesus the radical who hung out with prostitutes and those who had no place in the religious world - more concerned with ending human suffering than keeping religious traditions. He broke ALL of the rules handed down by the fundies of his era and it got him crucified. My church is awesome; I love it though oddly enough I do still to this day miss the Pentecostal church I grew up in. At the end of the day - I wouldn't change one thing. My life has been an amazing experience.

Kinda off the subject a bit, but the company I work for really strives to maintain a diverse workplace and actuall has a committee that organizes various activities to promote the corporate stance as well as publishing a newsletter. They came to me a few months ago asking me to write an article about "the experience in yuor life where diversity had its greatest impact". Jana (and anyone else interested), I think you might like this:


The following associates working in our Project Management Office described a personal moment where diversity changed their lives. Click on the names to read their stories on page 2.
Shannon
During my early childhood, my mother and I lived with my grandmother. My mom was quite young when I was born and was not married, so this was really the only option. When I was five or six, she graduated from nursing school and got her first job working as an RN at an inner city hospital in Washington, DC. In order to be able to move out to a place of our own, she took a position where she worked nights and weekends as it paid a differential that was slightly higher than that which was paid for working “normal business hours”. My mother and I moved to the city.

My grandmother was a religious woman – very Pentecostal – and was concerned not only about us moving out on our own but also about the fact that I would need someone to look after me while my mom was working. At least that’s what she said at the time. In actuality, she was concerned the most that I would no longer be going to church. She made a call to a girlhood friend who also lived in the city and made arrangements for my new “babysitter."

My grandmother went with us to help my mom move into our little apartment and to see to it that I got to the babysitter’s house on my mom’s first night of work, which was a Saturday. She was a kind, sweet spirited woman about the same age as my grandmother and was a widow raising five grandchildren of her own. I was a little shy at first but once we had gotten acquainted, the other kids tugged me off to play and I was at once the new member of the family. The weekend arrangement was for me to spend the night while my mom was at work and that my mom would pick me up the next day... after church.

The next morning, we all got up and went to church and then I went home with my mom. This went on for the remainder of my childhood. My “part time daycare arrangement” segued into close relationships that, though we were technically not related, became my adopted family. Their home was my home away from home, I thought of my babysitter as my grandmother just like her own grandchildren did, and their church became my church too. This is a cute story, but you might not think that it smacks much of “diversity” until you consider this:

I was raised by strong, determined women who all single-handedly worked to put food on the table while simultaneously raising children and yet still found the time to tell me bedtime stories. Though I was considered an “illegitimate child," I was welcomed by those who you might think would have been the last to welcome someone like me. And the church in which I found myself growing up? It was an inner-city, African American, Apostolic/ Pentecostal church where they played Gospel music on the organ, keyboards, guitars, drums and tambourines; where the choir sang up tempo songs while clapping and swaying to the beat of the music after they “marched in;" where they shouted and danced in the aisles and spoke in tongues; where the mothers sat on the front row and the ushers all wore white and stood like guards at the doors with their arms folded and heads bowed during prayers; where the preacher would make a point during the sermon and ask if he could “get an amen;" and where we all went downstairs after service for a big family style soul food dinner that had been prepared by the Willing Workers club, headed by the lady who watched me on weekends, a.k.a. “Ma Bubba."

Diversity implies difference, and you can’t get much more different than that. It had a huge, valuable impact on my life because it taught me to try and genuinely communicate with and learn from people who are not just like me. Some who read this won’t be able to relate at all to the experiences I’ve described, but some will – and I can communicate effectively with both. It also taught me to look at people as individuals before automatically forming an opinion based on their circumstances.
Though the women who shared in my upbringing could have been considered poor and easily written off by many, they had great value to me – their strength of character made my young life rich. And though this secondary home and community of faith were located in areas considered dangerous by many, I experienced nurture, kindness and acceptance – in the ‘hood. It shaped me to become the unique individual I am today. Not many people who look like me can explain the relationship between Super Dax and a pressing comb or know how to clean chitlins and cook collard greens and then build a bridge by communicating that knowledge to people who do look like me. And not many families who look like the one that had such a great part in my life have someone who looks like me coming by to see Ma Bubba on Mother’s Day. Not only has my life been affected by diversity, I am a product of it.

 

[Lex]

...
Lex - He's listening; keep talking - you'll find what you're looking for and it just might not look the way you thought it would. It'll be your own special thing and doesn't have to conform to anyone else's ideas. Keep your neck straight and your head up, pahtnuh:smile:

Thanks Vinny. I know these things from a very rich upbringing in faith. Like Zora, I bet, I am sick of MAN legislating his warped biblical beliefs into law and get tired of so called Sunday deacons and deaconesses (Mon-Sat sinners) casting their hate at me and my kind.

I had a neighbor tell me I was breaking God's law. Yeah, as if him haveing three GFs and a wife is keeping God's law. That shit gets old and keeps me out of church (for now). I can't be around hypocrites or drones.

Again, your posts have been powerful for me Vinny. Thanks for taking time to write them.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

Like Zora, I bet, I am sick of MAN legislating his warped biblical beliefs into law

You & me both my man...

 

[madame_zora]

Aww... you guys are sweet. Thanks for your kind words. Don't feel too badly for me Jana; it happened for a reason. "And we know that ALL THINGS work together for the good of those that love God, and are called according to His purpose..."

Vinny, I'm mommy, there's no way I can help but feel badly for the little boy in you who had such a hard time finding his way. At the same time, I can appreciate how this helped form who you are as an adult, and that is a very beautiful thing.

While our personal searches have taken us to different places in terms of God, I am truly happy for you that you have found a place of peace for yourself within the church. I'm wondering if you found The Vineyard? I went there for a number of years, and it was very much like the church you described.

For me, now, whether someone "loves God", or Allah, or Krishna, or prefers to find their path without a figurehead, or practises Buddhism, it's all good. We all want to survive, want good things for our kids, want to find love, want to contribute something to the world in which we live- we all struggle for significance. When I can't find much else to love in a person, I try to remember that.

There is something that can be seen as "god-like" in the interconnection of Man, and perhaps that IS god, I don't know. That's where I am now, but not being able to define God with a capital G is a stuck point for me now. I'll figure it out as much as I need to.

Thanks for sharing the story of your upbringing, you got many good gifts there, and are richer and wiser for the experience. Your physical attributes, while plentiful, are the least of your beauties.

 

[dolf250]

Well, I have been away for a day or two so I missed quite a bit.

Vinny- I am amazed at your posts. They share so much insight and passion that I am truly overwhelmed. I would love to have the opportunity to attend a service at your church if for no other reason than to see what it is in it that draws you.

 

[Corius]

Blind unbelief can be as dangerous as blind belief. We all have to act every day in situations where it is impossible to know all we might find useful. I do not know if I will be in good health next week, but I act assuming that I will be fit; in short, I choose to believe even when I can't possibly know. I have been right more often than wrong; I trust my hunches.

In my relationship to that which I cannot know about the ground of my very being, God, I am content to give proper weight to those who have travelled life's road before me. I am impressed that so many of them lived and died as happy persons. The witnesses were of all sorts and sexual orientation. None of them ever claimed to have the last word from God. I am impressed that the advice of many was for those who were to follow to expect the God would have yet more truth and light to break forth from his Holy Word. They themselves could testify to having received that word through the study of the sacred scriptures but also in their ordinary lives and sometimes through unlikely events and unlikely spokespersons. Uniformly, those witnesses I most trust are those who were and are most ready to receive truth and insight from whatever quarter it might emerge.

When at the tender age of fifteen I met the new fellow down the road who was also fifteen, I believed I was going to have a good summer. Very soon we were more than friends and there came the time when our bonding was sealed with acts of homosexual love-making and for two years we regularly reaffirmed the bonds of friendship/love that existed. We were blessed with the necessary privacy and never shared the details of the personal bond between us with any other person.
We came to think of the joy that we had in our relationship was about the greatest gift that two horny teens can have. Ours was a very personal and very private relationship and we found no conflict with our understanding of God.

Our church emphasized a God whose mighty acts including the freeing of the Jews from bondage in Egypt, the return of the Jews from captivity in Babylon. The chosen people we learned were not free from being distracted by seeking wealth and forgetting justice, by following the letter of the law and forgetting the spirit of the laws, by ascribing to God such concern for the chosen that he would condone acts of cruelty and barbarism.

We became well acquainted with the words of the prophets who confronted Israel and Judah with their sins and reminded the people, and especially their leaders, that God's concern is for the poor and the oppressed, that a right spirit within is more important that pomp and power. We were reminded that the people of God ask what is right and then strive to do what is right. The forgiveness of God we learned is more than equal to the transgressions of human beings. And all these things were accomplished and all the insights were made known through human beings.
We were reminded often that all of us are flawed human beings and hardly equipped to appear before the Almighty with a record of faithfulness to what we know of what our God requires.

I freely acknowledge that my Christian faith came to me by way of my family. I was always assured that I was under no obligation to accept ideas about God or reported outrageous acts by God or in the name of God which were/are revolting to my mind and conscience. I acknowledge that I believe in spite of the fact that there is no way in which I can fully know. Thus, for me the person and place of Jesus of Nazareth in my faith is dependent upon the witness of those who were in their time attempting to be faithful and true witnesses. I accept much of what they wrote as their thoughts-in-seeking-answers in much the same way that I and others speak and write. I like the insight of the writer who said Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. This speaks to me as does Paul's assurance that it was for our freedom that Christ came. This emancipation is intended for all and we are warned not to submit to anything or anyone who would limit our freedom.

If some who call themselves Christian would impose new yokes of unfreedom on any of us we ought to resist.

The spirit of Jesus Christ, present and active among all those who claim Christ's name, is to act as a check on those who would limit our liberty as persons who may properly claim the freedom we have in Chriist. Paul tells us to test the spirits and see whether they be of God. God in Christ invites us all to share the freedom which is ours. Those who would exclude or condemn you or me or all those others who don't quite fit the mold should be challenged to submit their judgments to the test.

 

[Freddie53]

Blind unbelief can be as dangerous as blind belief.

I like the insight of the writer who said Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. This speaks to me as does Paul's assurance that it was for our freedom that Christ came. This emancipation is intended for all and we are warned not to submit to anything or anyone who would limit our freedom.

If some who call themselves Christian would impose new yokes of unfreedom on any of us we ought to resist.

The spirit of Jesus Christ, present and active among all those who claim Christ's name, is to act as a check on those who would limit our liberty as persons who may properly claim the freedom we have in Chriist. Paul tells us to test the spirits and see whether they be of God. God in Christ invites us all to share the freedom which is ours. Those who would exclude or condemn you or me or all those others who don't quite fit the mold should be challenged to submit their judgments to the test.

Some very good points here. The one I want to emphasize is in bold. No one has pointed this important point before as far as I know. The anti gay campaign by the religious right: Does it pass this test? Hardly. Christ is about reconciliation, not separation. Christ is about love, not hate. Christ is about acceptance, not rejection. Wonderful point. We have it from Paul himself.