Misogyny, Chauvinism, Sexism, Gynophobia

Bigcockman1

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What do you think of the topic? Should these men continue behaving that way towards women. Many women are totally feminists and hate men and yet their encouraged to stay feminists and continue hating men , however , when a mans misogynist chauvinist, hes totally looked ag like theres something wrong with him.



Misogyny, Chauvinism, Sexism, or What?
 
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FoM17

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This is a ridiculous question and I suspect you're just trying to start shit but I'm gonna address it anyway.

The assertion that feminists hate men is at best a red herring, or at worst blatant anti-intellectualism. You also seem to be attempting to equate feminism and misogyny as moral equivalents; this claim is baseless and not rooted in logic or reality.

First, a proper definition of feminism is required. To keep things simple, feminism can be broadly defined as an ideological commitment to the equality of the sexes. That being said, this definition varies broadly across the many streams of feminism (liberal, radical, socialist, etc.). I suspect that your assertion that feminists hate men is rooted in a misunderstanding of radical feminism, which seeks to abolish the patriarchy and the concept of gender, both of which are examples of the many oppressive forces at work in society at large. You seem to be equating their hatred of the patriarchy with hatred for men in general, which is not true; the patriarchy is reinforced by everyone, everywhere, all the time, including societal institutions, by both men and women. Therefore, your claim that feminists hate men is unfounded and unworthy of further discussion.

Second, you seem to equate feminism and misogyny as moral equivalents; that is, if women are feminists, which, according to you, means they hate men, then men should be free to be misogynists, which can be defined as the hatred of women. While misogyny is in fact the hatred of women, feminism is not the hatred of men. As I've previously established, feminism is the ideological commitment to equality between the sexes. Therefore, feminism and misogyny are not in fact mere equivalents and cannot be compared in the way you've attempted.

Finally, I will address your last point; that when men behave as misogynists they are treated as if something were wrong with them. This is correct, there is something wrong with them. Misogyny is morally equivalent to antisemitism, homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc. It is a bigoted, hateful, unscientific, & unfounded belief and should be treated as such. This is worsened by the fact that men are in a position of greater power in society (due to the patriarchy) and thus, these horrific views are more dangerous when they are propagated by men. Following this same logic, even if feminism were the hatred of men, it would be less problematic than misogyny because women are an oppressed class, lacking comparable societal power to men, and therefore their ideas, even harmful ones, are weakened by the societal structure of the patriarchy.
 

halcyondays

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Men are stupid about women because men don't live in the estrogen ocean of the female body.

Women are stupid about men because women don't live in the testosterone ocean of the male body.

Add to this that female and male brains are wired differently for sex.

Add that we don't instinctually form lifetime pair bonds let alone heteronormative ones.

Add social indoctrination of gender roles and gender stereotypes backed by enormous familial and peer pressure during youth which can take a lifetime to undo... if at all.

It's no surprise men & women have difficulty understanding each other... or fail at it entirely. Result? Lots of bitching and blame back and forth across the divide.

I'm optimistic about the future. Politically and socially we've only just begun to embrace equality in the last 150 years--a mere blink in the lifetime of our species. We've taken our first tottering baby steps. Thursday's child has far to go.
 

Motion-of-the-Ocean

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Are you aware that not only women can be feminists? Are you really trying to bring up some kind of 1970's Rush Limbaugh argument that portrays all women fighting for equality as men-hating "Femi-Nazis" or suggesting misogyny should be normalized, which seems like an Incel talking point. Not sure what your apples and oranges comparison is here or that you're even capable of considering the one overriding difference in gender dislike or "hate" is in one side's greater propensity to express it in violent acts; but either way I'm not going to waste any more of my time on yet another copious drive-by thread of yours.
Isn't it time anyway for your monthly ban again?
 
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deleted5199391

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Well, 99,999% of people that talk about feminism or define themself pro or against it didn't even bother to study the contemporary history.
It's a socio political movement, it's not the female gang or evil, and unfortunately it's not the church of anti sexism.
If you really care about not being discriminated start from not discriminate, so no, in no case men should hate women or viceversa.
Get your things togheter OP.
 
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Sagittarius84

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I'm optimistic about the future. Politically and socially we've only just begun to embrace equality in the last 150 years--a mere blink in the lifetime of our species. We've taken our first tottering baby steps. Thursday's child has far to go.
I'm not so much. I definitely share the moral stance of embracing equality, and think every person is obligated to act towards it, myself included...but these past 150yrs has been quite illuminating as to whom en masse is willing to forgo certain privileges and attitudes, in exchange for agency and autonomy(and accountability) for all, and I fear it's going to lead right back into the days of old.
The obvious answer to should men be misogynist, sexist, chauvinistic, etc in light of man hating feminists is no...because firstly there is nothing about feminism that preaches nor allows for misandry, and secondly because doing so then disqualifies those men from making observations or claims of man hating behavior, even if true. Whether you're acting in good faith, or with the motive of holding "the other side" accountable, you first have the obligation of keeping your own house in order by practicing what you preach.
 

halcyondays

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hese past 150yrs has been quite illuminating as to whom en masse is willing to forgo certain privileges and attitudes, in exchange for agency and autonomy(and accountability) for all

IMO the issue isn't whom en masse but whom individually. Masses don't change. Individuals do.

there is nothing about feminism that preaches nor allows for misandry

This isn't true. There are feminist authors who wrote that the solution to the problem is geld male babies at birth or exterminate 90% of males keeping only the ones we need. There were even debates about which individuals and what percentage to keep. I read their stuff over forty years ago. I don't remember their names nor wish to. I have feminist friends who still speak of it today.

It's why I stopped identifying as a feminist way back then and chose humanist instead. Fortunately most of feminism is included in humanism. That shit about gelding/exterminating males is way outside the pale of humanism.

I fear it's going to lead right back into the days of old

That fear helps keep me in the battle. More powerful is the promise of a better world.

Two steps forward, one back. Two forward, three back. Three forward, two back. We keep it going--groundswell after groundswell moving right out from under the old orthodoxies. :)
 

Sagittarius84

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IMO the issue isn't whom en masse but whom individually. Masses don't change. Individuals do.
I've never discounted the actions of the individual, but the statistics of the masses are indicative of those collective individual decisions.
This isn't true. There are feminist authors who wrote that the solution to the problem is geld male babies at birth or exterminate 90% of males keeping only the ones we need. There were even debates about which individuals and what percentage to keep. I read their stuff over forty years ago. I don't remember their names nor wish to. I have feminist friends who still speak of it today.

It's why I stopped identifying as a feminist way back then and chose humanist instead. Fortunately most of feminism is included in humanism. That shit about gelding/exterminating males is way outside the pale of humanism.
Feminist≠Feminism. The ideology is sound, it is the failings of the human minds that misinterpret and twist said ideology to their own ends. All you're setting yourself up for is to abandon humanism by way of humanists once their individual radical ideas gain a voice...ironic your relegation to individuals earlier, then subsequent willingness to acquiesce the mass next.
That fear helps keep me in the battle. More powerful is the promise of a better world.

Two steps forward, one back. Two forward, three back. Three forward, two back. We keep it going--groundswell after groundswell moving right out from under the old orthodoxies. :)
I'm right there with you in ideology, but I'm not blind to the statistics, nor the implications they have for the decisions of individuals. Shit is bad, getting worse, and those whom will suffer the most seem hell bent on fostering an environment that empowers and pedestalizes the very demographic that seals their fate
 

halcyondays

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All you're setting yourself up for is to abandon humanism by way of humanists once their individual radical ideas gain a voice.

Abandon humanist causes? Me? Never. Speak for yourself.

ironic your relegation to individuals earlier, then subsequent willingness to acquiesce the mass next.

Seriously? Ironic that you accuse me of this given your concern for "whom en masse is willing to forgo certain privileges and attitudes." ;)

Shit is bad, getting worse,

Every generation spouts these: The world is going to hell in a hand basket. It's coming to an end. We're at a breaking point. These are troubled times. We've never been more divided. We're on the brink of revolution or civil war.

All of these are tired old tropes spoken in frustration and used to grab headlines, garner votes or used as justification not to vote. I understand and share the frustration but these tropes are not true. Government--especially representative government--has always been messy & divisive. It comes with the territory but I haven't lost my optimism or my will to engage. :cool:
 

Sagittarius84

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humanist causes? Me? Never. Speak for yourself
It's why I stopped identifying as a feminist way back then and chose humanist instead.
You showed me the trend, I didn't pick this out of thin air.
Seriously? Ironic that you accuse me of this given your concern for "whom en masse is willing to forgo certain privileges and attitudes." ;)
I've never deviated from the sense that the exceptional individual doesn't overcome the statistics of the collective. My comment was based upon your willingness to abandon the ideology of feminist core values but for the actions of certain individuals.

I don't nor will I ever lose my optimism in the situation, nor is this some acquiescence, I just find it...irresponsible to not be fully cognizant and honest of the entire issue, and to allow the exceptions to lull or paint us into some false corner of progress, when the statistics and historical context give us a pretty clear indication of what's coming next.
 

halcyondays

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You showed me the trend, I didn't pick this out of thin air.

What trend? I reported my personal experience not a trend. Trend is your word not mine.

your willingness to abandon the ideology of feminist core values but for the actions of certain individuals.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I haven't abandoned any feminist values contained within humanism. If you don't understand what they are look them up.

paint us into some false corner of progress,

Are you saying there has been no progress? And who is "us"? Again speak for yourself, not me.
 

twoton

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TL;DR

A basic problem that goes along with misogyny, etc is that men are genetically and evolutionarily physically larger and stronger than women and have a predisposition toward violence. (Don’t give me bullshit responses that not all men are bigger or that not all women are smaller, or bullshit responses that not all men are violent, blah blah blah piss off)

Has a man ever walked down the street or into a bar and been afraid that he could be physically attacked by women? (And don’t give me a bullshit reply that it’s plausible or that it happened to a friend of a friend because if you’re intelligent enough to use an Internet forum you’re intelligent enough to know there are outliers and exceptions to generalizations—but I use them anyway because most people (except on the Internet, it seems) are smart enough to understand generalizations.)
 

Sagittarius84

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A basic problem that goes along with misogyny, etc is that men are genetically and evolutionarily physically larger and stronger than women and have a predisposition toward violence. (Don’t give me bullshit responses that not all men are bigger or that not all women are smaller, or bullshit responses that not all men are violent, blah blah blah piss off)
I consider this more of an issue of mate selection. Our actions and decisions have some bearing upon the level of sexual dimorphism that occurs. Which means its not just that men have a propensity for being stronger and violent, but when given the option women prefer these men as opppsed to men that match their strength and disposition.
One of the 1st things that follows any type of progressive societal overhaul by the males of a population, specifically dealing with the uplifting and empowerment of women, is that the appreciative female population either use their agency to double down on their previous preferences of male archetype(bigger/stronger, more violent) or opt out for solitude or lesbian ventures.
The only "egalitarian trick " of mating and dating that has really worked was men's widespread adoption of monogamy which boosted the amount of men passing on their genes from about 20% to 40%; and now there are modern scientific and behavioral studies which suggest no matter how it is structured( to benefit her agency or not) it is women that are inherently bored with monogamy, and men whom keep that as their primary mating and dating strategy are considered to be less attractive.
 

Sagittarius84

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Are you saying there has been no progress? And who is "us"? Again speak for yourself, not me.
I'm saying much in the same fashion women have never had more agency and autonomy, and they have never been safer from violence and and rape as they are today; but we find it appropriate to make a huge fuss as to the violence and sexual aggression women face today.
 
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