Monogamy And Marriage(and Other Long Term Arrangements)

Sagittarius84

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So sound bites from this particular podcast have gone viral on the interwebs. Im curious what people here think of this. I do think there is quite a bit of gendered universality that can be gleaned from the question at hand, but there's no denying how the question is posited runs parallel to a very open and common complaint about sex that comes from heterosexual men.
I definitely have some of my own observations of the dialogue, but am curious to hear others' that arent in the business of content creation.

 

elklindoxxx

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This is an issue of compatibility which should be discussed when you are single not after you get married. If one person has more of a sex drive than the other, I'm not sure if they are really compatible.

Me and my partner agreed that we would not have a monogamous relationship because we were basically promiscuous people. We would end up cheating on each other. So we decided to swing with other couples. It's good to have variety because it alleviates the boredom.
 

Sagittarius84

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This is an issue of compatibility which should be discussed when you are single not after you get married. If one person has more of a sex drive than the other, I'm not sure if they are really compatible.
Ive thought about this for a long time...I dont think a pre marital convo covers it. I think for women especially(although I think it applies to men sometimes too)that convo becomes a series of checks they're not going be able to cash later for a myriad of reasons.
 
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Fishsqueezee69

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This makes the presumption that men are unstoppable sex machines. This is bs. We can all control our urge. No need for polygamy in most situations. Still, I am not against arranged polygamy.

My sex drive is higher than my husband. I am loyal to him. I have just learned to be patient and enjoy the attention I get when I get it.
 

Sagittarius84

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This makes the presumption that men are unstoppable sex machines. This is bs. We can all control our urge. No need for polygamy in most situations. Still, I am not against arranged polygamy.

My sex drive is higher than my husband. I am loyal to him. I have just learned to be patient and enjoy the attention I get when I get it.
Interesting take...at least how sex is so easily considered an urge to be controlled(by whatever subjective means of measurement that is determined by) instead of a need to be fulfilled for a happy relationship.
I guess the question is how dedicated should a high libido party even be to controlling their sexual urges, when their partners typically start out with actions and ultimately make a commitment to satiate those urges. Is it like what the wife in video refers to as not being aware of how her urges would change(despite the wealth of anecdotal evidence that exists, not to mention the typical reasons for marital reluctance offered by men all the time), or could it be a lot of those partners realize that being upfront or honest about what level of sexual intimacy they would be capable of providing may have the high libido parties opt out for more sexually compatible partners or situations?
 
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elklindoxxx

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My partner and I don't consider ourselves to be a couple of sex crazed people, but we do have a healthy libidos. However, we are people who do get bored. And I know there are a lot of couples who get bored as well and certain ones go out and cheat. So instead of cheating we agreed to find other like minded couples for casual sex. We have met some great couples and have never left anybody unsatisfied.

For us it's really more about the variety rather than trying to fulfill some sex crazed urge. It's really great to have sex with someone different once in a while.
 

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Interesting take...at least how sex is so easily considered an urge to be controlled(by whatever subjective means of measurement that is determined by) instead of a need to be fulfilled for a happy relationship.
I guess the question is how dedicated should a high libido party even be to controlling their sexual urges, when their partners typically start out with actions and ultimately make a commitment to satiate those urges. Is it like what the wife in video refers to as not being aware of how her urges would change(despite the wealth of anecdotal evidence that exists, not to mention the typical reasons for marital reluctance offered by men all the time), or could it be a lot of those partners realize that being upfront or honest about what level of sexual intimacy they would be capable of providing may have the high libido parties opt out for more sexually compatible partners or situations?

It is the same thing with food. One needs to control cravings. This is no different.
 

halcyondays

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The biology of human sexual dimorphism rears it's ugly head!

Women are stupid about men because they don't live in (the testosterone ocean of) a male body.

Men are stupid about women because they don't live in (the estrogen tides of) a female body.

Sex drive has two primary sources, hormones and pleasure. Let's look at hormonal drive.

Sexually mature human females ripen and drop an egg or two once every 28 days and are most hormonally driven for sex for a week or ten days around ovulation--one week out of every four.

Sexually mature human males ripen 300-500 million sperm a day and are hormonally driven for sex 24/7/365.

Males are hormonally driven for sex all the time. Females are hormonally driven for sex one-quarter of the time.

Result? Women complain that men want sex all the time and don't understand why men do because--wait for it--women have no idea what it's like to be in a male body. Men complain that women rarely want sex and don't understand why women don't because--wait for it--men have no idea what it's like to be in a female body. This video screams the difference from the rooftops.

Their debate about monogamy is immaterial to biological reality.

Another powerful dimorphism is that human male and female brains are wired differently for sex. The female brain requires context as well as physical attraction. The male brain requires only physical attraction.

More biology. Humans do not instinctually form lifetime pair bonds. If we did everyone would pair up and never look elsewhere or fantasize anyone else let alone cheat or go from one monogamous relationship to the next. Monogamy is artificially imposed by taboo--primarily religious/moral taboo. Reference the death penalty for any sexual activity outside of a lifetime heterosexual pair bond in the Bible. Result? Tons of shame, guilt and recrimination for not living up to this artificial moral perfection.

Excellent video but nothing new in the age-old differences between women and men.
 

Sagittarius84

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The biology of human sexual dimorphism rears it's ugly head!

Women are stupid about men because they don't live in (the testosterone ocean of) a male body.

Men are stupid about women because they don't live in (the estrogen tides of) a female body.

Sex drive has two primary sources, hormones and pleasure. Let's look at hormonal drive.

Sexually mature human females ripen and drop an egg or two once every 28 days and are most hormonally driven for sex for a week or ten days around ovulation--one week out of every four.

Sexually mature human males ripen 300-500 million sperm a day and are hormonally driven for sex 24/7/365.

Males are hormonally driven for sex all the time. Females are hormonally driven for sex one-quarter of the time.

Result? Women complain that men want sex all the time and don't understand why men do because--wait for it--women have no idea what it's like to be in a male body. Men complain that women rarely want sex and don't understand why women don't because--wait for it--men have no idea what it's like to be in a female body. This video screams the difference from the rooftops.

Their debate about monogamy is immaterial to biological reality.

Another powerful dimorphism is that human male and female brains are wired differently for sex. The female brain requires context as well as physical attraction. The male brain requires only physical attraction.

More biology. Humans do not instinctually form lifetime pair bonds. If we did everyone would pair up and never look elsewhere or fantasize anyone else let alone cheat or go from one monogamous relationship to the next. Monogamy is artificially imposed by taboo--primarily religious/moral taboo. Reference the death penalty for any sexual activity outside of a lifetime heterosexual pair bond in the Bible. Result? Tons of shame, guilt and recrimination for not living up to this artificial moral perfection.

Excellent video but nothing new in the age-old differences between women and men.
Not that you're not speaking truths but they dont address a lot of the subtleties that make this such a consistently frustrating conversation.
Though overall im trying to steer this convo away from a male/female thing to a high/low(responsive) libido thing, Ill address this; the supposed rules biology of women when it comes to their needs to inspire sexual activity are literally thrown out. Many men(myself included) noticed early on, and often times later if a more permanent commitment had not been established that the context and communication were really unnecessary as her sexual aggression was self motivated.. Which is probably why a lot of high libido folks are quite ok to limiting themselves to monogamous situation, because independent of timeframe and hormonal shifts, low/responsive libido folks are making the effort to exert the sexual energy necessary to match their desired partner, almost immediately falling back once the bond has been accomplished. Biology is a convenient and often appropriate scapegoat for sexual behaviors and decisions, but only because I think we are wary to delve into what may very well be manipulative or deceptive behaviors, not because they come from a place of malevolent intent, but that the presumptive consequence is a selectivity they dont want to be subject to.
Just from a general, tropish standpoint, we already see men starting to shy away from marriage and long term commitments to women as is, what type of relationship prospects do you think low/responsive libido individuals can look forward to in a world where high libido persons know upfront their sexual intimacy needs will most likely never be met, independent of the relationship efforts they put forth? Why do you think men and boys especially are indoctrinated from an early age a message of their sexual satisfaction in a relationship being in direct proportion to the relationship efforts they put forth, when women's biology says otherwise?
 

halcyondays

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Biology is a convenient and often appropriate scapegoat for sexual behaviors and decisions, but only because I think we are wary to delve into what may very well be manipulative or deceptive behaviors, not because they come from a place of malevolent intent, but that the presumptive consequence is a selectivity they dont want to be subject to.

I disagree that biology is scapegoating. The sexual dimorphism of our species is the very foundation of this couple's (K&D's) frustration. As a man his hormonal drive is ON all the time. As a woman hers isn't AND her brain is wired for context not just physical attraction. He must also behave romantically to light her fire, finding new and inventive ways to woo her even though she has/is already committed to him. She? All she has to do is take off her clothes to light his.

What's manipulative is the religious & moral indoctrination we all suffer from childhood which says we MUST have and maintain lifetime monogamous relationships when our species is not instinctually that way. Even those who are not raised in a religious faith are steeped in a culture which is. Almost no one escapes the expectation of this cultural indoctrination.

As I've said here many times before indoctrination is a ten dollar word for brainwashing. Many individuals--male and female--are middle aged before they realize this, if ever, and begin to liberate themselves.

Just from a general, tropish standpoint, we already see men starting to shy away from marriage and long term commitments to women as is,

We also see record numbers of women doing the same, liberated from traditional roles/expectations of wife & mom. You continue:

what type of relationship prospects do you think low/responsive libido individuals can look forward to in a world where high libido persons know upfront their sexual intimacy needs will most likely never be met, independent of the relationship efforts they put forth?

If low libido individuals get into relationships with high libido individuals or vice versa they can look forward to the same conflict K&D have in this video. (BTW IMO he should take care of his own needs when she's not interested in sex. He knows how to masturbate.)

Why do you think men and boys especially are indoctrinated from an early age a message of their sexual satisfaction in a relationship being in direct proportion to the relationship efforts they put forth, when women's biology says otherwise?

I don't think men/boys are especially indoctrinated. Women/girls are as well and equally. But my answer, again, is that religious morality requires it. It's trickery which ignores basic biological differences between the sexes and requires severe sexual repression of both men and women to work.

Biologically the argument can be made that long term (if not lifetime) monogamous behavior has/is being selected for in our species because the offspring of such pair bonds are more likely to survive and reproduce. What is also true is that the sexual dimorphism of our species where males are larger and stronger than females suggests that we are a tournament species where the strongest males get the most females. Indeed there is still polygamy today where one male has exclusive access to many females. It's allowed if not required in the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Human females are also instinctually drawn to tournament mating behavior in their attraction to high social status males. The extreme of this is seen in the groupie phenomenon. Male stars of music, film and sport bed hundreds or thousands of women who give themselves to these men. For every woman who does it there are millions who fantasize it.

Almost nothing is less attractive to women than poor men.

Are there individual exceptions and nuances to this? Sure but the population studies indicate we are 1) not instinctually monogamous forever and 2) stuck somewhere between tournament and pair bonding on the spectrum of mating behavior.
 

Sagittarius84

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Where I say the biology is scapegoating is not in the bodily effects but the decisions made. If the biological generality of women's sex drives being conditional, responsive, and/or periodically waning...then it should be the 1st and foremost lesson imparted upon young men and boys when they seek counsel about their interest in women and girls. We know generally men are interested in sex primarily and have no issues advising girls and women to be wary of a mans intentions as a result, but yet when it is said that sex is going to be used by women as a means to lock down a bond, for it to be insatiably conditional henceforth that's somehow unfair.
The scapegoating in this is nobody really wants to talk about how manipulation and deception are bigger factors in future monogamous dissatisfaction then the issues that can stem from sexual dimorphism; how we so easily warn high libido individuals against unsustainable grand romantic gestures to attain relationships(on the basis the partner will assume that is the norm), but think its A ok for low/responsive libido individuals to match their higher potential partner initially only to fall off later(where a prolonged demonstration of sexual compatibility motivated the higher libido individual to make the commitment in the 1st place.)
Im not calling for biology to change, Im calling for truth to be shared so that people can make more informed decisions as to their partners, or at the very least be able to hold their partners accountable.
 

halcyondays

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If the biological generality of women's sex drives being conditional, responsive, and/or periodically waning...then it should be the 1st and foremost lesson imparted upon young men and boys when they seek counsel about their interest in women and girls.

Problem is it's not. Nor are women counseled about men. Young people are indoctrinated to the requirements & expectations of religion even in secular marriage. Sex and sexuality are not discussed. There is little or no sex education precisely because religions are opposed to it.

A large part of the deception is the romantic myth. Young men & women are taught to expect they will get married and live happily ever after. Most are in for a shock.

Im not calling for biology to change, Im calling for truth to be shared so that people can make more informed decisions as to their partners, or at the very least be able to hold their partners accountable.

I don't understand what you mean by holding partners accountable. If we're talking about the same deception it makes no sense for one partner to blame the other when both have been deceived.
 

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I think that while dating, most women are eager to have sex with their boyfriend. They do so often to keep him satisfied. However, once the relationship moves from being boyfriend girlfriend into being a married couple that the dynamic changes.

The husbands as a rule, expect sex will stay the same. But, the wife has caught her husband and somehow doesn't feel the need to have sex with him all the time now.

I also believe that it's not religions fault that people are mismatched sexually. Because if one reads and understand what scripture has to say about sex between a man and his wife, they'd certainly know that neither partner is supposed to deny the other partner sex except, for an agreed time. This to help keep one partner from cheating. But, society doesn't see things that clearly. Once a couple is married they have an obligation to each other.

I've known couples where the man was the one with the low sex drive. As well as couples like me and my wife who before marriage and during pregnancy had sex all the time. Wherever I wanted. After marriage that dynamic changed from every day to four or five times a week to eventually maybe a couple of times a month after she came off her period.

The problem with these situations is it's not what was bargained for upfront. Frankly it's a cheat when one partner decides that they don't want sex anymore or only a couple of times a month. It's what causes many men and women to cheat. The real pisser is, the partner who decided to deny sex playing the victim. If they'd been taking care of business in the first place the other partner wouldn't have been driven to look elsewhere for sexual gratification. Let's face it jacking off may help get your rocks off, but it's little consultation to having intimate sex. Speaking as a man there's nothing that compares to a women orgasming on your manhood, nothing. I'm certain that a woman feels basically the same way.

Once a couple becomes married the obligations they have towards their relationship don't change because of vows. They change because of life. Both usually lose site of the big picture. That they were once in love with each other and it's that love that gets pushed to the back burner. Along with everything else that made them a couple. Sex usually being the first thing to go.
 
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Our historic cultural moral high ground is monogamy. However, this stems from Bronze Age religious control and apparently a patriarchal system.

I would agree that it was patriarchal when the rules were imposed differently for men and women as they still are in Islam, but in the West we have the situation where it has suited government to enforce financial care for children and their mothers on men. Men should look after their families if they have chosen to have them, unfortunately the threat of financial ruin or hardship has shifted the balance of power and the need for mutual give and take. Men have ended up being fucked over either way, by which I mean if you cheat you're fucked and if she cheats you're fucked. Don't get me wrong, most women will compromise for a good husband, but a non monogamous husband is rarely considered a good husband.

Then there is the love issue. Men under the influence of love think they can be and genuinely want to be monogamous. Economic reality makes coupling up the sensible option for most people, and cultural obligation also pushes monogamy. If you feel trapped by it, it's not surprising as the odds are stacked against you.
 
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Fishsqueezee69

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The biology of human sexual dimorphism rears it's ugly head!

Women are stupid about men because they don't live in (the testosterone ocean of) a male body.

Men are stupid about women because they don't live in (the estrogen tides of) a female body.

Sex drive has two primary sources, hormones and pleasure. Let's look at hormonal drive.

Sexually mature human females ripen and drop an egg or two once every 28 days and are most hormonally driven for sex for a week or ten days around ovulation--one week out of every four.

Sexually mature human males ripen 300-500 million sperm a day and are hormonally driven for sex 24/7/365.

Males are hormonally driven for sex all the time. Females are hormonally driven for sex one-quarter of the time.

Result? Women complain that men want sex all the time and don't understand why men do because--wait for it--women have no idea what it's like to be in a male body. Men complain that women rarely want sex and don't understand why women don't because--wait for it--men have no idea what it's like to be in a female body. This video screams the difference from the rooftops.

Their debate about monogamy is immaterial to biological reality.

Another powerful dimorphism is that human male and female brains are wired differently for sex. The female brain requires context as well as physical attraction. The male brain requires only physical attraction.

More biology. Humans do not instinctually form lifetime pair bonds. If we did everyone would pair up and never look elsewhere or fantasize anyone else let alone cheat or go from one monogamous relationship to the next. Monogamy is artificially imposed by taboo--primarily religious/moral taboo. Reference the death penalty for any sexual activity outside of a lifetime heterosexual pair bond in the Bible. Result? Tons of shame, guilt and recrimination for not living up to this artificial moral perfection.

Excellent video but nothing new in the age-old differences between women and men.

None of this has been shown to be true for human. In my opinion, there is too much acculturation to consider.

Human females are as hormonally driven as males. The hormones they have just do different things to them.
 

Sagittarius84

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Nor are women counseled about men.
Id argue society as a whole is much more freely anecdotal about the issues and failings men bring to relationships that women ought to look out for. The narrative for women tends to wallow in the male induced trauma that preceded whatever issues they display.
I don't understand what you mean by holding partners accountable. If we're talking about the same deception it makes no sense for one partner to blame the other when both have been deceived.
Im talking about the same level of innate accountability we hold men or high libido individuals to when, even when both parties are deceived as to what level of sexual satisfaction and intimacy to expect, infidelity occurs. I dont think we have any issue with one partner blaming the other for not fulfilling one tenet of monogamy, why arent the other tenets of monogamy held in a similar regard?
 

halcyondays

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Id argue society as a whole is much more freely anecdotal about the issues and failings men bring to relationships that women ought to look out for. The narrative for women tends to wallow in the male induced trauma that preceded whatever issues they display.

I disagree. In my experience both sexes wallow in complaint about the other over sex: women that men want sex all the time, men that women never want sex. Women and men both complain that the romantic effort made by the other early in the relationship wanes or disappears after marriage or long term commitment. The root of that specific complaint is in our biology.

I do agree that both sexes are not informed about the difference. This is due to the appalling lack of sex education. Even knowing the difference intellectually doesn't always help the sexes understand each other because we don't experience the reality of each others bodies. But it's a start.

Im talking about the same level of innate accountability we hold men or high libido individuals to when, even when both parties are deceived as to what level of sexual satisfaction and intimacy to expect, infidelity occurs.

Who is the "we" holding men/high libido accountable for infidelity? Why do you say it's innate? IMO this accountability is primarily a social/cultural taboo we learn, not an instinctual behavior.

Monogamy deceives because it denies or ignores our instinctual reality.

I dont think we have any issue with one partner blaming the other for not fulfilling one tenet of monogamy, why arent the other tenets of monogamy held in a similar regard?

I'm not a proponent of monogamy but am curious: what are these other tenets?
 

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There are actually a number of studies that say married women under 35 are just as likely to cheat as married men under 35. Not that rare for men has diminished, but women have increased.

There also a strong belief that many women over 35 won't admit to their infidelity at all, not even anonymously, they are conditioned by society that you take it to the grave. They believe that the infidelity rate is higher for these women then historical study results, but how much higher in indeterminable.
 
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Fishsqueezee69

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I disagree. In my experience both sexes wallow in complaint about the other over sex: women that men want sex all the time, men that women never want sex. Women and men both complain that the romantic effort made by the other early in the relationship wanes or disappears after marriage or long term commitment. The root of that specific complaint is in our biology.

I do agree that both sexes are not informed about the difference. This is due to the appalling lack of sex education. Even knowing the difference intellectually doesn't always help the sexes understand each other because we don't experience the reality of each others bodies. But it's a start.



Who is the "we" holding men/high libido accountable for infidelity? Why do you say it's innate? IMO this accountability is primarily a social/cultural taboo we learn, not an instinctual behavior.

Monogamy deceives because it denies or ignores our instinctual reality.



I'm not a proponent of monogamy but am curious: what are these other tenets?

As a gay man in a long term relationship, I can tell you that even with two men living together, one will always have a lower sex drive than the other.
 

halcyondays

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As a gay man in a long term relationship, I can tell you that even with two men living together, one will always have a lower sex drive than the other.

Always without exception in all same sex relationships? At all times over the life of a relationship? No individual exceptions? I doubt that. :)

Not that it matters to why women and men don't understand each other which begins with biology--sexual dimorphism--then adds a plethora of other things some of which paint us with a broad brush like moral, religious and cultural differences, then adds others which don't paint us all like individual physical & personality differences, preferences and personal experiences.

Any relationship may be affected by individual differences. :cool: