moral and / or christian conservatism

[LuckyLuke]

Originally posted by Bluespeedoz@Oct 4 2004, 09:13 PM
...I will leave it to you to decide whether marriage between two men or two women whether gay or not should be recognised by the Church. I think most Christians would answer no. I'm more open minded but don't have an answer at this time.

[post=258329]Quoted post[/post]​

To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter, nobody cares, and that's the not the issue anyway.

No way shape or form, is any religious institution required to acknowledge a same-sex marriage (as it is legal in Canada, Netherlands, etc).

What is at issue is whether or not, a religous group has the right to impose their view (that same-sex marriage is some kind of sin-thing) upon other persons. That is the issue that is worthy of discussion.

Anyway, a very interesting thread. As always, it comes down to the same point every time. Religious people pretend they are being persecuted when they are denied the right to dominate society. I give them pity, but no alms.

 

[Dude!]

Originally posted by LuckyLuke@Oct 12 2004, 08:39 PM

What is at issue is whether or not, a religous group has the right to impose their view (that same-sex marriage is some kind of sin-thing) upon other persons. That is the issue that is worthy of discussion.

They have the right to say whatever they like. They DON'T have the right to infinge upon other's rights.

 

[jonb]

And this is only a Catholic/Orthodox issue anyway; Protestant denominations are out of the whole "sacrament" industry and into the whole "telephone collection" and "pacifying locals for Big Business" industries.

 

[headbang8]

Originally posted by Dude&#33;+Oct 13 2004, 02:21 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dude&#33; &#064; Oct 13 2004, 02:21 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>That study - I don&#39;t believe that 0.2% of the prison population is athiest. That study can&#39;t have been complete enough - I&#39;m sure the numbers inside and outside of prison would be about the same, because I can&#39;t see why there should be 60 times less in prison than out side (proportionally, anyway). Perhaps the believers are more inclined to own up or give themselves in? I don&#39;t know. 

[post=259107]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Personally, I have NO trouble believing it. If you think that God&#39;s going to forgive your sins, you&#39;d be more likely to commit one, not less.

It takes a great deal of moral courage to be an atheist; to believe that there&#39;s no afterlife in which your good deeds and contrition will be weighed against your sins and failings. Atheists know the only thing that counts morally is whether you&#39;re good right here, right now, to the next person who walks down the street--sounds like a better way to ensure we love our fellow man than the New Testament&#39;s obtuse comparison to "...as I have loved you."

Now, I can&#39;t quote statistics on this one. But I don&#39;t know of ANY cases where putative Christians have shown themselves to be more likely to "give themselves in" without the imminent threat of detection or punishment. Did Bill Clinton admit his sin until Monica coughed up the dress and ID&#39;d his dick? Has George W. fronted up to serve the remainder of his military service? Fine Christians, both.

Just because you&#39;re an atheist doesn&#39;t mean you lack a moral compass. I heard someone on a radio talk show quote the head of the Boy Scouts, who said that if an atheist walked down the street and saw a ten-dollar bill on the sidewalk, he&#39;d feel no compunction in just making off with it. The PR director of a prominent atheist organisaton replied: "I&#39;m sorry, he must be confusing us with the clergy."

<!--QuoteBegin-Dude&#33;@Oct 13 2004, 02:21 AM
Anyway. I believe much of the Old Testament to be people writing down what they expected of God (to be vengeful, or need total attention 24/7) and I believe this because Jesus set about basically making a new set of ground rules - love is all important - love God, your brother, your neighbour, your enemy. The Grace of God means that if you whole heartedly believe Jesus died for your sins you&#39;re saved, and there is nothing you can do to make God love you more or less. I like that. I&#39;m not saying the Old Testament is fiction, indeed large chunks of it tie in with well respected historical documents. The prophecies are very impressive (helps me to believe what I read in the NT).

[post=259107]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
Sadly, the large chunks of the bible that don&#39;t tie in with well respected historical documents blow it. The null hypothesis stands.

The most prominent prophecy that didn&#39;t come true was a pretty big one. Christ prophsied that the second coming would occur within a generation. Hmmm...

Maybe His flight was delayed--I hear LAX has been snowed in for a couple of millennia.

Anyway, Dude&#33;, peace and abundance to you.

hb8

 

[jonb]

Hell, large sections of the Bible don&#39;t agree with each other. The origin of man, for one. Jesus&#39; genealogy, for another. Most interesting is that heterosexuals can&#39;t get into heaven either; of course, only Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses pay attention Revelation 14:4.