Moral and possible Legal situation.... advice please!
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helgaleena
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Boy toy, eh? It is enough then to drop this person from friendship entirely, and perhaps privately to disparage what he is doing with this minor. A business owner engaged in illegal activities even in private could benefit from a boycott.
But putting things on Facebook was possibly libel if he immediately denies all.
But putting things on Facebook was possibly libel if he immediately denies all.
is the drinking age 18 or 21? In California the owners and bartenders will be cited for even allowing an under-aged person in the bar. there is an exception where food is served like a restaurant or pizza joint. most California owners don't want to risk their licenses by tweaking the Alcoholic Beverage Commission (ABC) for any reason.
rob_just_rob
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FWIW... The age of consent in Delaware is 18, but it is legal for teenagers aged 16 and 17 to engage in sexual intercourse as long as the older partner is younger than 30. (wikipedia)
So, you're friends with the owner, but didn't know that the owner had an underage (if said owner is over 30) lover until last Saturday?
Frankly, you should have said something at the time, or spoken with the owner privately to voice your concerns. Posting on facebook is a stupid and juvenile way to handle this sort of issue. It's the opposite of reasoned behaviour. It comes off as a threat, and most people get defensive and/or hostile when threatened.
So, you're friends with the owner, but didn't know that the owner had an underage (if said owner is over 30) lover until last Saturday?
Frankly, you should have said something at the time, or spoken with the owner privately to voice your concerns. Posting on facebook is a stupid and juvenile way to handle this sort of issue. It's the opposite of reasoned behaviour. It comes off as a threat, and most people get defensive and/or hostile when threatened.
Oh come on. Are you seriously suggesting everyone here has never done anything illegal. Nobody has taken drugs, had sex or drunk whilst underage?
m4mfun510
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Gillette wasn't suggesting that at all.
In the eyes of the law (the written law), minors are incapable of making informed decisions. Adults are.
If I'm in a situation where a minor is drinking alcohol and don't do something about it (ideally, report it to the police in the eyes of the law), I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor. It doesn't matter if it's a bar or my own home (parents in California have been arrested for allowing teenagers to drink in their home).
Ditto "underage" sex.
In fact, there were two men whom I had sex with when I was 16 who could have gone to prison for it. Not because they forced me, not because I wasn't a willing participant - just because I was 16 and they were older. As much as I wanted to and as much as I enjoyed it, it was still illegal.
In many instances, the laws and the legal system don't see "oh, he's mature so it's OK" or "oh, they're in love so it's OK". The law looks at facts and decides based on facts. It can consider other factors.
But in the OP's instance (depending on the local laws), he did the right thing.
bigjpgh
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11 Del.C. s761(k) defines the age of consent in Delaware. under age 12, a child cannot consent to any sexual contact. Age 12-15 a child may consent to sexual contact with a person who is not more than 4 years older than the child. Age 16 and up that person may consent to any sexual contact.
In this situation, this young man was 17, which is past the age of consent in Delaware. Additionally, dancing in a thong is not sexual contact.
As for the drinking, the key to note here is not whether this was a bar, or a private party, or whether there is a liquor license or not. All of those things apply to the SALE of alcohol. From the OP's statement, this young man was GIVEN a beer, not sold a beer. 4 Del.C. s904(c) states that a person who gives alcohol to an individual under the age of 21 may subject to a fine of $100-$500, up to 40 hours community service, and up to 30 days in jail. The actual sentence imposed is of course within the discretion of the judge.
As for the young man, as I stated before, he would lose his license for 30 days and have a criminal record that would jeopardize student loans and future employment.
I understand that not everyone is from the US, and even then not everyone is from Delaware, but perhaps it would be wise to find out what the law actually is before commenting upon it.
In this situation, this young man was 17, which is past the age of consent in Delaware. Additionally, dancing in a thong is not sexual contact.
As for the drinking, the key to note here is not whether this was a bar, or a private party, or whether there is a liquor license or not. All of those things apply to the SALE of alcohol. From the OP's statement, this young man was GIVEN a beer, not sold a beer. 4 Del.C. s904(c) states that a person who gives alcohol to an individual under the age of 21 may subject to a fine of $100-$500, up to 40 hours community service, and up to 30 days in jail. The actual sentence imposed is of course within the discretion of the judge.
As for the young man, as I stated before, he would lose his license for 30 days and have a criminal record that would jeopardize student loans and future employment.
I understand that not everyone is from the US, and even then not everyone is from Delaware, but perhaps it would be wise to find out what the law actually is before commenting upon it.
I am not a lawyer either.
To Gillette: from the OP's description, there was no sex happening at the party, so unless provocative dancing is considered sex, then the OP has to prove the bar owner is having sex with the 17 year old and that's off topic.
I don't know what to think about your course of action. I'm trying to put myself in you and your boyfriends shoes but I do not understand your line of thinking on the subject. You're clearly reacting emotionally and are not logically thinking this through.
If it was a private party, then clearly Liquor Laws don't apply, though supplying alcohol to a minor was an infraction and you could try to proceed on this point. But do you really want to?
What do you gain out of blowing the whistle on this? What are you truly interested in doing here? Your grounds for being "upset" about the situation seem shaky at best. Are you just trying to protect this innocent little 17 year old from exploitation? ....Because clearly, this person is not that innocent, and he's made some decisions and a judgement call, all on his own, that has put him where he is. Let him take responsibility for his decision; don't try to use law to justify your feelings. You sound like an upset parent. Believe me, all the kids I knew growing up were sexually active at 17, and were drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc. I didn't see their parents going ballistic (and I'm sure they knew). And the end result was those kids have turned out just as well-adjusted and fucked up as ever other person on earth. Do you really want to take on this responsibility?
If it seems like I have strong feelings about what you're doing, I certainly do. A friend of mine who I've known since I was 7 years old, and is a stand-up guy, was an active, involved community leader, and a medical hero, went to jail for two years for having sex with an underage girl, who (after he ended it with her) became spiteful and vengeful and took advantage of California law (which is absolutely heinous) to try and ruin his life and to a large extent, did. He made a bad call by being involved with her - I make no excuse for that, but this girl had significant problems too.
If this 17 year old was in shackles and chains, crying to be released, tortured, or in agony, OR if it was at all apparent the kid was present at the party against his will, then, beyond reason or doubt, you'd have every incentive to be upset and take action. But, that's not the case here, not even close.
If you are trying to 'save the guy' and be the voice of moral judgement and ethical values, you're way too late and no 'enforcement of the rules' on the people or establishment who led this kid to being at the party and dancing around is going to prove otherwise. It's just going to cause a major headache and heartache (most likely) for the bar owner and all whom they employ, but also as Bigjpgh said, a lot for the kid as well. Again, do you really want to?
I also see absolutely zero rationale for why you posted this on Facebook...were you looking for support and people to say 'go for it"? This situation could blow up a lot bigger and a lot more quickly than perhaps you're prepared for.
I don't think this is worth it for you. But that's IMHOP.
To Gillette: from the OP's description, there was no sex happening at the party, so unless provocative dancing is considered sex, then the OP has to prove the bar owner is having sex with the 17 year old and that's off topic.
I don't know what to think about your course of action. I'm trying to put myself in you and your boyfriends shoes but I do not understand your line of thinking on the subject. You're clearly reacting emotionally and are not logically thinking this through.
If it was a private party, then clearly Liquor Laws don't apply, though supplying alcohol to a minor was an infraction and you could try to proceed on this point. But do you really want to?
What do you gain out of blowing the whistle on this? What are you truly interested in doing here? Your grounds for being "upset" about the situation seem shaky at best. Are you just trying to protect this innocent little 17 year old from exploitation? ....Because clearly, this person is not that innocent, and he's made some decisions and a judgement call, all on his own, that has put him where he is. Let him take responsibility for his decision; don't try to use law to justify your feelings. You sound like an upset parent. Believe me, all the kids I knew growing up were sexually active at 17, and were drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc. I didn't see their parents going ballistic (and I'm sure they knew). And the end result was those kids have turned out just as well-adjusted and fucked up as ever other person on earth. Do you really want to take on this responsibility?
If it seems like I have strong feelings about what you're doing, I certainly do. A friend of mine who I've known since I was 7 years old, and is a stand-up guy, was an active, involved community leader, and a medical hero, went to jail for two years for having sex with an underage girl, who (after he ended it with her) became spiteful and vengeful and took advantage of California law (which is absolutely heinous) to try and ruin his life and to a large extent, did. He made a bad call by being involved with her - I make no excuse for that, but this girl had significant problems too.
If this 17 year old was in shackles and chains, crying to be released, tortured, or in agony, OR if it was at all apparent the kid was present at the party against his will, then, beyond reason or doubt, you'd have every incentive to be upset and take action. But, that's not the case here, not even close.
If you are trying to 'save the guy' and be the voice of moral judgement and ethical values, you're way too late and no 'enforcement of the rules' on the people or establishment who led this kid to being at the party and dancing around is going to prove otherwise. It's just going to cause a major headache and heartache (most likely) for the bar owner and all whom they employ, but also as Bigjpgh said, a lot for the kid as well. Again, do you really want to?
I also see absolutely zero rationale for why you posted this on Facebook...were you looking for support and people to say 'go for it"? This situation could blow up a lot bigger and a lot more quickly than perhaps you're prepared for.
I don't think this is worth it for you. But that's IMHOP.
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Cougar
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Age of Consent in Delaware is 16 for boys and 18 for girls
Face Book >>>> petty
Shocked >>>>> drama
LEGAL AGE OF CONSENT (ageofconsent.com) Age du consentement à l’acte sexuel
Face Book >>>> petty
Shocked >>>>> drama
LEGAL AGE OF CONSENT (ageofconsent.com) Age du consentement à l’acte sexuel
bigjpgh
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Check your source please. This is a website that was last revised in 2002. Delaware currently makes no distinction between males and females for age of consent. I have cited the current controlling statute above.
And yes, I am a lawyer.
For all the liberals and libertines you owe it to yourselves to stop and think. It is legal matter but has ethical implications. It sounds as if it is child abuse. It is also just a wee bit sleazy. I don't think it is in the licensee's comercial interest entirely, he sounds low life. Find another bar and let the law know. As for your so called friends who booze ther, you are not missing out.
Alcohol served to minors is greatly frowned upon in several states, and has led to arrests.
Private party or no. I keep reading of these "teens given beer by parents" parties, which which the parents go to jail after it is uncovered.
A no no.
As for the FACEBOOK comments, if someone objects, delete it.
As for the "Don't be a snitch" tag line. There are many areas where it should be proper to "snitch"--I'd rat out a bank robber or killer if I knew. Don't be stupid. Consider the consequences.
Private party or no. I keep reading of these "teens given beer by parents" parties, which which the parents go to jail after it is uncovered.
A no no.
As for the FACEBOOK comments, if someone objects, delete it.
As for the "Don't be a snitch" tag line. There are many areas where it should be proper to "snitch"--I'd rat out a bank robber or killer if I knew. Don't be stupid. Consider the consequences.
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Thanks for all the great input....
I didn't expect to get so much feedback.
We're going to take things slowly and cautiously. We have a phone pic with the boy sitting in one of the barstools if anyone tries anything shady. We're still just appalled to have gotten such drama in return considering that the others seemed so oblivious to the potential issues... that and offended that we were put in a situation that could have led to a police investigation.
Thanks again.
I didn't expect to get so much feedback.
We're going to take things slowly and cautiously. We have a phone pic with the boy sitting in one of the barstools if anyone tries anything shady. We're still just appalled to have gotten such drama in return considering that the others seemed so oblivious to the potential issues... that and offended that we were put in a situation that could have led to a police investigation.
Thanks again.
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D_Gunther Snotpole
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There is a potential sexual issue and an alcohol-related one.
If the age of consent is really 16, then scratch the sexual issue.
As for the alcohol-related one, really, a 17-year-old drinking an (apparently single) beer at a private party is not a matter that any sane person would get involved in ... much less involve the law.
IMO, there is almost nothing to this entire matter.
Let people live their lives unless something really egregious is going on.
This is nothing.
If the age of consent is really 16, then scratch the sexual issue.
As for the alcohol-related one, really, a 17-year-old drinking an (apparently single) beer at a private party is not a matter that any sane person would get involved in ... much less involve the law.
IMO, there is almost nothing to this entire matter.
Let people live their lives unless something really egregious is going on.
This is nothing.
The laws on things like this vary from State to State.
Some jurisdictions could view this incident as little more than a "parking ticket" and others would have not hesitation in arresting ALL the guests at that party for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor". You not only have State Laws on this one, but there can be County or City ordinances/statutes as well.
There are two problems. All States had to enact laws forbidding the sale or serving of alcohol to a minor until age 21. Many States allowed sales at age 18 until only a few years ago. What the FEDS did was to tie Federal Highway Funding to the imposition of alcohol sales rules. Serve alcohol to a person under the age of 21 now in virtually ALL states and it is automatic "go to jail", "Pay heavy fines", and say "bye-bye" to a liquor license. Some States are so strict on this that if they were to serve alcohol to a person defined by law as a minor in their own home, that it would still impact their liquor license in their business life.
Now, on the "moral issues" the "boy toy" in question could be the biggest "he-whore/slut" on the planet, and it would not matter.
State Statutes regarding sexual activity vary, but, the general rule is that if you have a combination of ages under 18 and over 21, you usually have a problem.
In Palm Springs we had a "neighbor" who liked things that were young. He was 30 and the guy was caught giving alcohol to a 16-year-old. He want down on the alcohol, he went down on sex charges and he is now required to register as a sex offender. By the way, I do not know about Delaware, but if a person has sex charges against them bar ownership will not happen and a license can be either revoked or probably not renewed in California under the same issue. If the establishment he owns is a bar catering to the GLBT community, getting caught will also give great fodder to those trying to get rid of his establishment simply because of the clientele.
The smartest thing you can do with regards to these individuals is to first as a one and only courtesy remove the "face-book" posting. I would then inform them of same and that it was done as a courtesy. After that, I would put on your track shoes and run as far away from people like this as is humanly possible and stay away from them. Individuals playing with "boy toys" as you have defined it are not far from those advocating participation in acts with things even younger. Get away and stay away for your own safety and peace of mind.
Some jurisdictions could view this incident as little more than a "parking ticket" and others would have not hesitation in arresting ALL the guests at that party for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor". You not only have State Laws on this one, but there can be County or City ordinances/statutes as well.
There are two problems. All States had to enact laws forbidding the sale or serving of alcohol to a minor until age 21. Many States allowed sales at age 18 until only a few years ago. What the FEDS did was to tie Federal Highway Funding to the imposition of alcohol sales rules. Serve alcohol to a person under the age of 21 now in virtually ALL states and it is automatic "go to jail", "Pay heavy fines", and say "bye-bye" to a liquor license. Some States are so strict on this that if they were to serve alcohol to a person defined by law as a minor in their own home, that it would still impact their liquor license in their business life.
Now, on the "moral issues" the "boy toy" in question could be the biggest "he-whore/slut" on the planet, and it would not matter.
State Statutes regarding sexual activity vary, but, the general rule is that if you have a combination of ages under 18 and over 21, you usually have a problem.
In Palm Springs we had a "neighbor" who liked things that were young. He was 30 and the guy was caught giving alcohol to a 16-year-old. He want down on the alcohol, he went down on sex charges and he is now required to register as a sex offender. By the way, I do not know about Delaware, but if a person has sex charges against them bar ownership will not happen and a license can be either revoked or probably not renewed in California under the same issue. If the establishment he owns is a bar catering to the GLBT community, getting caught will also give great fodder to those trying to get rid of his establishment simply because of the clientele.
The smartest thing you can do with regards to these individuals is to first as a one and only courtesy remove the "face-book" posting. I would then inform them of same and that it was done as a courtesy. After that, I would put on your track shoes and run as far away from people like this as is humanly possible and stay away from them. Individuals playing with "boy toys" as you have defined it are not far from those advocating participation in acts with things even younger. Get away and stay away for your own safety and peace of mind.
jjsjr,
The first thing I would do if I were you would be to delete the facebook posting. It is very easy to do. Facebook is not private and it can be used against you. The best post I saw was from bigjpgh who told you word for word what the Delaware law (statutes) says. The only thing you could get them on ...... was that this 17 year old was given alcohol. I could understand if this 17 year old had gotten drunk and then went out and killed somebody (drinking and driving) but you didn't mention that.
I just think this is all more trouble than it is worth. And it could get costly for you too. Who knows what someone can accuse you of doing? I am betting that if you go through with this, the bar owner will try to get you for slander and he will point out your facebook entries (if you don't delete them) Just my 2 cents.
The first thing I would do if I were you would be to delete the facebook posting. It is very easy to do. Facebook is not private and it can be used against you. The best post I saw was from bigjpgh who told you word for word what the Delaware law (statutes) says. The only thing you could get them on ...... was that this 17 year old was given alcohol. I could understand if this 17 year old had gotten drunk and then went out and killed somebody (drinking and driving) but you didn't mention that.
I just think this is all more trouble than it is worth. And it could get costly for you too. Who knows what someone can accuse you of doing? I am betting that if you go through with this, the bar owner will try to get you for slander and he will point out your facebook entries (if you don't delete them) Just my 2 cents.
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