Morality is the Mortality of America

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Not_Punny, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. Not_Punny

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    (I will defend this to my dying day, so argue with me at my peril!!! :wink:)

    In America, our social infrastructure is built upon taxation. (Schools, roads, welfare, law enforcement/public peace, safety, etc. etc.)

    When communities have a BALANCE between taxation and services rendered, you have a stable, safe community. Some "rich" communities have an excess of taxes vs. services rendered which makes them extra-safe.

    But when this balance is disturbed, you have undesirable communities -- such as drug-crime neighborhoods, slums, etc. etc.

    A major problem in America is that there are "industries" that not only escape taxation, but which directly CAUSE expenditure of tax-payer money:

    -- Illegal drugs: This is a triple-drain/loss on our economy: (1) neither side pays sales tax on street drugs, (2) we spend gazillions to support the "war on drugs" and to house drug lords AND innocent pot-puffers in jail, (3) a large percent of the homeless are ex-druggies.

    -- Prostitution: Prostitution is illegal in most states... but that never stopped it from being practiced. Nooooo.... let's spend millions of dollars "fighting" it -- let's have undercover cops stalking the streets and sniffing around men's rooms looking for naughty senators. MEANTIME, the women/men who work in the profession don't have health care or any benefits... yet they (more than any other profession) ought to have OHSA regulations for health and safety. But noooooo..... it's immoral! Let's just spread disease and let those horrible whores get hurt and maimed. Jeez.

    -- Gambling: Gambling is EVIL! Ban it!! Meantime, all those American-Indian casinos... hey! They're owned by the same corporations as in Las Vegas... but with one big difference... the Indian ones don't have to pay taxes! Whopeeeee!!!! Meantime, the Native American Indians only get a pittance of the monies raked in.

    -- Sweat shops and slave labor. Agriculture is a big one. Hey -- think of all the money saved when you don't have to pay employee tax, worker's comp, or health benefits. And who benefits?!!! Well, it certainly isn't the immigrant worker or the small farmer. But SOMEBODY benefits. (Ever notice the price of a god damned lemon at the supermarket?!!) MEANTIME... schools have to take in the immigrant's children, the hospitals can't turn away the bleeding bodies or Johnny with the 105 fever, and when little Maria gets pregnant her baby is raised on welfare, and meantime, when Jose and Alberto fail ninth grade, they enroll in a gang and there goes the neighborhood.

    We need to:

    A) abolish "morality laws" as unconstitutional

    B) totally rethink our taxation/corporation laws.

    I think "A" is the biggest problem in America because we simultaneously lose/expend billions of tax dollars chasing an unconstitutional, goody-goody dream that is contrary to human nature.
     
  2. Not_Punny

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    That being said, I only have one exception to morality laws: where they affect children. Protect children, but when they turn 18, all bets are off.
     
  3. JustAsking

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    I sometimes agree with this idea. It reminds me of prohibition, which caused more trouble than it saved. Not that all these things are good things. But making them illegal seems to be ineffective, expensive, and accentuates all the wrong things about them.

    One correction, though. The Indian casino, The Mohegan Sun, is owned by Trading Cove Associates, a corporation of all the tribal members. Although it doesn't pay taxes, the deal with the state of Connecticut requires it pay 25% of all its slot machine revenue to the state. Last year that was about $475 Million. The nearby competing casino, Foxwoods paid a similar amount.

    The Mohegan Sun day to day operation is subcontracted to a professional international resort and casino management company, called Sun Resorts International.

    All of the money earned by the casino goes into paying down the construction debts for their facilities, the management fees, college tuition for all members of the tribe, a tribal government that gives all kinds of services including health care, a retirement community and low cost residences on tribal land. What is left over is disbursed to tribal members in the form of dividends. Since the debt from the massive construction projects and their diversifying into gambling ventures in other states, the disbursement is about $27k per year.

    However, once the debt is paid down, the disbursement will go up precipitously, but that will take decades. Regardless of that, ultimately all the tribal members are the owners of the entire operation. The tribal government and the gaming operation employ loads of tribal members who are paid very well and have lots of benefits. It goes without saying that the once failing CT economy, which was dependent on defense contract to military shipbuilding is now rock solid and vigorous in that part of the state.

    The nearby tribe, The Pequots, run Foxwood's Casino. Their debt load is much different, and large sums of money go to the tribal members in the form of annual disbursements.
     
  4. Not_Punny

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    Good point, JustAsking. I'm only familiar with California Indian casinos, and it's a bit of a tax controversy over here. In the last few years there have been various compacts and propositions floating around to try and make things fair.

    (California, however, does has more Indian casinos than any other State)

    And there was an error in what I said -- in many cases the California casinos are OPERATED by the same corporations that run the Las Vegas casinos, so I apologize for the error.

    - - - -

    It's just when I think about the math, I get pretty mad. If we eliminated morality laws, the tax earnings (and budget savings) would be enormous -- in my mind way more than enough to offset the expense of providing PROPER infrastructure to assimilate illegal immigrant workers, and thus relieving the burden on the neighboring communities.
     
  5. JustAsking

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    Besides the economics of it, I am not sure the current laws actually cut down on misery and suffering.
     
  6. SpeedoGuy

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    We might save some money by not prosecuting drug dealers or drug users, its true. And I agree puffing a joint hardly seems like a serious crime, especially when compared to widespread casual alcohol consumption. But if drugs were legalized is it possible that we might incur additional other substantial costs from crimes or social ills associated with increased drug use such as: thefts, assaults, overdoses, homelessness, etc?
     
  7. HazelGod

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    Do you mean as opposed to the ones we don't have right now?
     
  8. Not_Punny

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    I think the Prohibition in the United States (1920-1933) told us all we needed to know about morality law.

    I don't normally nod my head to a Rockefeller, but John D. Rockefeller Jr. wrote the following in a letter in 1932:

    "When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognised. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before." (emhapsis mine)

    (source: Wikipedia)


    Sounds kinda like the war on drugs and prostitution, doesn't it?
     
  9. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    I agree with most of what milf said, I have no problem with prostitution or gambling being legal, or even most drugs. I do think some substances should be controlled, though. Pot? nah, who cares. but heroin? yeah, probably. Stiffer penalties for drug traffickers would make a bigger impact than most think. It works in other countries.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about slave labor, though. Are you in favor of slavery?
     
  10. Not_Punny

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    LOL -- I'm referring to sweat shop labor and paying less than minimum wage (and no health benefits, no worker's comp, no employee tax, and no social security) on illegal aliens and itinerant workers. I'm dead set against it.
     
  11. trappedinthecloset

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    hotmilf, you go girl
     
  12. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    ok

    in that case... doesn't that go against the rest of your post?

    anti-gambling, anti-prostitution, and anti-drug legislation could be considered morality laws. You are in favor of legalizing all of those things, right?

    anti-slavery laws could also be considered morality legislation, in that we feel slavery is wrong so it is against the law. But... you are no in favor of legalizing slavery... you are in favor of stronger enforcement?

    Do you see where my confusion stems from? or am I missing something?
     
  13. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    There are actually 3 different kinds of laws here, I think.

    The first, drug/prostitution/gambling, represents laws against "victimless crimes." Some argue that allowing these things engenders greater lawlessness, and other argue that people simply aren't capable of making intelligent or moral decisions for themselves so we need to tell them what to do. At any rate, nobody is immediately affected by these "crimes" except for the people smoking the drugs, fucking the prostitute, or gambling their money away. I think it's pretty dumb to legislate against things like this that don't infringe upon anyone else's rights.

    The second would be fairness laws that govern how corporations deal with employees or the public. Minimum wage laws, laws against child labor, forced overtime, etc fall into this category. These laws attempt to raise the standard of living for people who may not be wealthy, organized, educated, talented or powerful enough to do this for themselves. This operates from the assumption that businesses will exploit people as much as they possibly can to increase their own profit if it is in any way possible, and seeks to somewhat level the playing field. Labor unions can have the same effect as federal legislation in this area, but when workers are undocumented and not organized the way most immigrant workers are, there is really no protection for them. Opponents of these laws have faith in the free market's ability to fix everything, and believe free commerce creates a stronger economy and greater wealth for all. I'm sort of middle of the road on these laws. I think the government is probably a better arbiter than labor unions, but I also believe too much meddling can stifle an economy. I'm in favor of documenting and protecting all workers in the country the same. I'm not sure I'm in favor of a minimum wage, if there is one I don't think it should be a flat rate.

    Finally there are laws against the direct exploitation of one individual by another, holding them in bondage or servitude from which they are not allowed to escape. Treating others as property. Of course I'm in favor of those laws.
     
  14. SpeedoGuy

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    I'm not sure I follow what your question is referring to, HG.

    What I'm saying is that a host of personal and property crimes, among other social ills, accompany the drug trade now. My question is: If drugs are legalized, does it logically follow that those crimes and ills would simply go away, be reduced or, possibly, increase? Its not clear to me what would happen.
     
  15. Drifterwood

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    I agree HM.

    Where does slave labour in the sex industry fit in, Nic?
     
  16. rob_just_rob

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    I mostly agree with this.

    The principal reason that you won't see changes to the drug, gambling, prostitution, and other laws related to "vice" is that too many people have built careers and fortunes based on opposition to a particular "vice", and they'll lobby hard, pressing all the right buttons, against any change to the status quo.
     
  17. Not_Punny

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    LOL -- my worries exactly.

    Don't you just HATE it when that happens?!

    * knits brow along with a couple pairs of socks trying to think of a solution *
     
  18. Not_Punny

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    Ooooh! NIC!! Excellent analysis!

    And if I've not read it put that way elsewhere, then I'm screaming out my ignorance from the rooftops! (I'm not a lawyer and my secondary education consisted of marketing, advertising and design)

    However, I do love classification, and I like the way you have divided it up.
     
  19. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    How do you think? Was I being ambiguous about my thoughts on slavery?

    I think it's retarded some people out there like to assert that everyone who has every worked as a sex worker is a victim and/or a slave. On the other hand, those that are legitimately being enslaved should be protected by the law. Legalizing prostitution would do a lot to help with this problem. The industry will always exist, but if it's forced into the shadows it's much easier for abuses to occur.
     
  20. Drifterwood

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    No, I was thinking of the genuine problem of people traffiking for the sex industry. I think that the Nederlanders have it pretty much right, though I can't claim any first hand experience.
     
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