More Maine Gay Marriage fallout; "The Gay ATM is CLOSED"; the system of Gay Apartheid

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    First of all, the successful Maine vote to repeal gay marriage (by 52 1/2% to 47 1/2%) has now apparently emboldened anti-gay marriage activists in New Hampshire -- where gay marriages are slated to begin on January 1, 2010 -- to take their fight to the ballot box.

    As Ben Smith reports at Politico:


    Reconsidering marriage in New Hampshire


    The defeat of same-sex marriage in Maine is prompting marriage foes in New Hampshire -- which now has same-sex marriage -- to try again:
    Now that gay marriage has been defeated in Maine, attention again shifts to New Hampshire, where lawmakers say momentum from Tuesday's vote may fuel legislation to repeal the state's law and give voters a say.

    Two proposals are being drafted in the N.H. House: One would repeal the law Gov. John Lynch signed in June and re-establish civil unions; the other is a constitutional amendment that would charge voters with deciding if "the state shall only recognize the union of one man and one woman as marriage."


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    David Mixner wrote a rabble-rousing column today, in part:

    What is happening to us with this expanding system of Gay Apartheid in America cannot be allowed to continue and if it does, we cannot go quietly into the night enabling such abuse anymore.

    How can we have any dignity, honor or pride in ourselves if we validate this continued process of ballot box terrorism? How can we stand tall next to each other if we explain away another's cowardliness? How can we allow people to dehumanize our relationships and our very integrity if we give people passes to sit out the battle for our very freedom? No longer are political timelines a reason for delay, no longer are incremental approaches acceptable and no longer can the political process expect us to be patient and wait our turn. Our turn came long ago and there will be no more waiting.

    As so many others have said, "The Gay ATM Machine is closed." Not one penny more for those who are fair weather friends, who ask us to delay and who insist patience is a virtue in the face of injustice.

    New tactics must be embraced and honored. Civil disobedience must now be on the table and it is time for a long discussion about how it is to take place in the community. Perhaps we have to fill the jails, block military bases, sit in Congressional offices, block marriage bureaus, etc in order for them to know that business as usual has stopped. Careful and thoughtful consideration must be given now to this option.

    For over thirty years I have been fighting ballot box measures and even have won some. What I have seen is a system of laws go in place around the country that prevents us from full equality. Some laws are specific like banning our participation in the military or DOMA. Some states ban adoption or foster care. Others give people permission to discriminate against us. We are not denied a few rights, we are being denied our basic freedom and dignity.

    Enough. No More, Enough

    DavidMixner.com - Live From Hell's Kitchen

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    Tony Kushner ("Angels in America") weighed in about the Maine vote on yesterday's Advocate website:


    The news from Maine doesn’t make me depressed, but it does make me angry. I’m angry that bigots, cretins, and theocrats get to vote on whether or not their fellow citizens are entitled to equality under the law. Our basic right to equal treatment is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and should not be subject to state referendums.

    I’m angry that the Catholic Church and the Mormons, tax-exempt under the increasingly laughable pretext that they have something to do with God, pump millions upon millions of dollars into this wicked campaign to promote bigotry and perpetuate human suffering, while supporters of LGBT equality pay taxes for the privilege of continuing to be not-fully enfranchised sub-citizens.

    I’m very angry that we’re being forced to fight for equality on a state-by-state basis. We are American citizens and we are entitled to 14th Amendment protection in every aspect of our lives, in every state in the union.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that LGBT people will soon accomplish this, but I’m angry at the setbacks, of course, in Maine, in California, which do nothing but hurt real human beings and gain no one anything that any sane human being could possibly want. And I guess I should add that I’m angry at the LGBT community’s lack of effective national political leadership, our lack of a coordinated national strategy, but there are signs that maybe this is beginning to change. And I guess I should add that I’m angry at myself: I didn’t send money or help out in Maine, so who have I got to be angry at, really, other than myself?

    On the other hand: 47% for marriage equality is a number that should hearten us and dishearten the bigots, cretins, and theocrats. So let’s get back to work.
     
  2. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    A much simpler and less violent approach...
    How about if every single gay & lesbian in America refused to pay their taxes? State and Federal? Violence tends to lead to more violence, with innocent people getting caught up in the crossfire. They can't put every single gay & lesbian in jail, and the amount of money lost on such a thing would make anyone notice. Also, the couples in Maine should look into bringing up a collective lawsuit against any and all churches involved to question their validity to maintain their non-profit status.

    The most effective protests in our nation have always been peaceful yet stoic at the same time. Just screaming at the top of ones lungs and causing a ruckus isn't going to do it. Hit 'em where it hurts them the most... their pockets. Then you'll see change. Because money is the only language these people speak.
     
  3. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    I hate the word "terrorism".
     
  4. Dave NoCal

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    My thought is that each time they ask me for money I will send them a check for nine cents, since their support of our constituency isn't worth a dime. It will cost them several dollars to process it each time.
    I desubscribed from Obama's list serve several days a go. A few hundred thousand people doing this would probably cause some alarm.
     
  5. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Also, while I see what you're getting at, the word apartheid is a bit much as well.

    First terrorism, then apartheid? Next I'll see Fascist, Communists and Nazi's pop up.
     
  6. Bbucko

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    Hyperbole when outraged is acceptable: if your marriage was annulled by strangers who decided that it didn't fit their criteria of what constitutes proper marriage, what term would you use? Inconvenience?

    I'm really unclear why you have so much ambivalence regarding same-sex marriage. Is it because you disagree with the Supreme Court...

    ...or is it that you just don't think that gays and lesbians don't merit the same 14th Amendment consideration extended to African Americans?

    I am not being snarky: I really don't get it, and I really don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

    NB: the "h" word is not left my keyboard.
     
  7. B_Mister Buildington

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    I wonder what the majority of the american public has against gay marriage? From what I've been told (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, please) the issue has come to a popular vote (among various states' citizens) 31 times in the States, and the results have always been the same- failure.

    I am all for gay marriage. I'm sure there are people on this board who disagree, and I'd love to hear their perspective... but that can't really happen without them getting shouted down and insulted by those who disagree with them, so I doubt it will happen :-/
     
  8. scotchirish

    scotchirish Member

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    Well being as our nation is largely "religious", I have been told, from the pulpit, that allowing gay marriage will lead to people wanting polygamy legalized. Realistically, that's not a huge jump to make. I know of married couples who have a third partner, but that partner has no designated legal rights. And if polygamy is legalized, what about people who are in love with their animals. You know half of PETA would jump on that one :wink:. The fear that opening up marriage to one group, who feels that their natural rights of Love and companionship are being infringed, will open the floodgates for any relationship arrangement to be legalized.

    That's the mass-broadcasted fear of the churches, which becomes the underlying fear of the people.
     
    #8 scotchirish, Nov 6, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  9. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    It will eventually because the 14th Amendment and its interpretations by the Supreme Court say it will. What will then be an issue is if the rest of the states will pass a Constitutional amendment to block it. Our Constitution is designed to protect the rights of minorities while allowing great freedoms to the majorities to disagree with the minority. It's a tricky balance and one that has not always worked well. Maine is a setback but then so is DOMA and Don't Ask-Don't Tell. They are battles in a long war which will, eventually, be won.

    The Supreme Court is reluctant to take-up the issue now for fear that there are enough states to pass a Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in reaction to such a broad and controversial Supreme Court ruling. Scalia and Thomas are idiots but the rest of the court isn't and they do not want to see the Constitution being used as a tool of bigotry or oppression. I think they will accept a case when they believe that the chances of it not being reversed by the states is virtually assured.
     
    #9 jason_els, Nov 6, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  10. Zeuhl34

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    I live in Washington state, and had a referendum on an "everything but marriage" law this election, and it barely passed (51% or so). Had been about actual marriage, I would not doubt that it would have failed spectacularly. People just let their religion influence them too much.
     
  11. HazelGod

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    Nope, you aren't, UB...not by a longshot.
     
  12. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    Back down the road of drawing conclusions I see. I made a jump to conclusions mat I'm attempting to market, would you like in?
     
  13. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    I'm with you there, I have no idea why most people don't like gay marriage. I can see not agreeing with homosexuality (which gets you called a homophobe on this board) but who cares if they get married? Whats the difference? I am familiar with lots of people who just don't want it to be called 'marriage'. For them the word marriage carries a special connotation that the union is (somehow) from God. The gay marriage movement should start small. Instead of demanding equal "rights" they should work towards getting minimal recognition.
     
  14. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    See, I can't agree. Most Americans are secular. Few would cross the street for any church, much less let the church tell them how to vote.
     
  15. Bbucko

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    Your response was equal parts deflection and sarcasm with nothing direct: oh well.

    You have repeatedly stated an ambivalence regarding marriage equality, which seems counter-intuitive to many other posts where you come off like an otherwise sane and sensible guy; I asked for a clarification and you got defensive and obfuscated.

    There are many people here with opinions and strongly-held positions which I do not share but have come to appreciate because of the force of reason in their argument and the way they have articulated it.

    A great example of this would be the way Jason_Els and HazelGod discuss gun ownership. Prior to having read their opinions I would have considered their POV to be beyond my comprehension: I don't now, I find it laudable even if I do not agree with it (and I don't). But I don't have to agree with someone to find worth and clarity in their opinion.

    I was not bating you, I was sincerely attempting to figure out what your view on the subject are and the reasoning behind it, because you have an opinion that has been reasoned through in your own mind: that's obvious. I just want to understand it better. If you mistook my post above for snark, despite having written...

    ...and...

    ...then I'm not really sure to what degree you'd require my supplication before deigning to answer my question. I'm sorry; I don't do submission very well: I'm an alpha top.
     
  16. Zeuhl34

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    Well, if it isn't religious opposition, on what grounds to people oppose gay rights/marriage? The majority (59%) of Americans are religious, saying religion is "very important" in their lives, with even more professing some type of religious affiliation. (Source) I'd also imagine that those that call religion "very important" will also often let it have some say in their political beliefs, especially when it comes to things like gay marriage, abortion, and creationism/intelligent design being taught in classrooms.

    Washington state is weird. It's viewed as a very liberal progressive state, but get outside of Puget sound or Vancouver, (WA,) and it's a very conservative state, though sparsely populated outside of Spokane. Ref 71 really only passed because of the high population density around Puget Sound.
     
  17. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    I don't remember stating ambivalence towards it, that would require me saying "I just do not care".

    Frankly, raging about this subject, along with abortion and others are things I don't do. Nothing I can say is something that hasn't already been said, so why bother? Screaming about it on an internet forum is absolutely pointless, as is most things on the internet. Anything I do discuss is something I'm interested in at the moment, and there's quite a few topics that have been done to death, and I don't care to revist. If someone made another topic about Hate Crimes I'd ignore it utterly because it's been done, for example.

    Frankly this is something I don't care about expressing my opinion over, draw whatever conclusions you will, and you will draw the exact conclusion I expect you will, and I'll probably get a chuckle out of it.
     
  18. Bbucko

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    Apathy and ambivalence are two completely different things, but you know that, so your post is just continues the same obfuscating avoidance pattern. It's a horse/water thing: yawn.

    Keep being you, MF: you're beautiful where it counts.
     
  19. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    I answered you pretty clearly, not sure what you're talking about. I haven't given off anything mixed, I'm just not getting into it.
     
  20. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    MercyfulFate writes:

    Frankly, raging about this subject, along with abortion and others are things I don't do. Nothing I can say is something that hasn't already been said, so why bother?

    --------------------


    But, Mercyful! You state opinions all the time that have been given a hundred thousand times over!

    Example: From your very own thread, Radio Host Mancow admits Waterboarding IS torture, you write: "So, anyone still support this barbaric and completely idiotic practice that gets us no useful information?"


    Thank you for that! I completely & wholeheartedy agree that waterboarding elicits no useful information, and I've heard the arguments a thousand times over, but there are not really any new arguments left under the sun are there?


    Which leads us to Bbuckos point: Why is it you obfuscate and avoid and strike a defensive posture with certain specific issues - yet freely give your opinions on other topics that have been "done to death"?
     
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