More Patriot fun
- Thread starter madame_zora
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Once again, suitable for framing:
meatpackingbubba This message is hidden because meatpackingbubba is on your ignore list.
This place is a learning place for me, and I need to let go of hopeless causes.
meatpackingbubba This message is hidden because meatpackingbubba is on your ignore list.
This place is a learning place for me, and I need to let go of hopeless causes.
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Well, you can sling it like a trooper but you seem to be pretty thinned skinned when you are on the receiving end.
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Lex
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In response to the poster who said asked if it was local and state taxes that were suppose to support education.
In theory that is true. However, increasingly through the years money has be allocated on the federal level for education. At one time at least in my state all funding came from local funds. Today in my state local funds only provide a fraction of the budget of a local school district. In some schools over half the total money spent comes from the federal government.
What Lex said earlier is so true. The federal government mandates what the schools must do. The consequences for non compliance in loss of federal funds which would shut down most public schools. So in reality, the federal government through the No Child Left Behind Act has taken over the curriculum of public schools K-12. Problem is the writers of this Act have never taught school. According to this Act by 2012 the percentage of students on grade level will reach a higher number than 100 percent. That is how stupidly the Act was written.
In my state, a school with a 69 percentile average was cited for not making enough improvement. A percentile score of 69 means that the average student is one grade level above average. But this school only improved from 67 percentile, not enough improvement.
Meanwhile another school was cited as an great school for moving from 21 percentile to 29 percentile, almost a third percent gain. True, but 29 percentile means the average student is at least one to two grade levels behind where they should be.
Sounds crazy? Yes. This entire bill, No Child Left Behind is absolutely absurd.
You say this is crazy. It is.
In theory that is true. However, increasingly through the years money has be allocated on the federal level for education. At one time at least in my state all funding came from local funds. Today in my state local funds only provide a fraction of the budget of a local school district. In some schools over half the total money spent comes from the federal government.
What Lex said earlier is so true. The federal government mandates what the schools must do. The consequences for non compliance in loss of federal funds which would shut down most public schools. So in reality, the federal government through the No Child Left Behind Act has taken over the curriculum of public schools K-12. Problem is the writers of this Act have never taught school. According to this Act by 2012 the percentage of students on grade level will reach a higher number than 100 percent. That is how stupidly the Act was written.
In my state, a school with a 69 percentile average was cited for not making enough improvement. A percentile score of 69 means that the average student is one grade level above average. But this school only improved from 67 percentile, not enough improvement.
Meanwhile another school was cited as an great school for moving from 21 percentile to 29 percentile, almost a third percent gain. True, but 29 percentile means the average student is at least one to two grade levels behind where they should be.
Sounds crazy? Yes. This entire bill, No Child Left Behind is absolutely absurd.
You say this is crazy. It is.
I'm glad to hear from the educators on this, I really had no idea about the specific inner working of the bill. The authority alone that it grants the administration is frightening, but those are some clear examples as to why. I'm referring to both the Patriot acts and No Child Left Behind. How can you pass laws like No Child, and deny the promised funding to make it happen?
It's been said by smarter people than I that if you're not angry, you're not paying attention.
It's been said by smarter people than I that if you're not angry, you're not paying attention.
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What suggestions do those that don't care for the specifics of the NCLB Act have for increasing accountability and ensuring that minimum standards are met by our education system?
Perhaps a system that allows parents more choice in selecting schools for their children would be in order. This would instill some element of market discipline in a system that currently operates as a monopoly. Competition tends to root out incompetence and failed approaches and promote innovation and excellence.
Perhaps a system that allows parents more choice in selecting schools for their children would be in order. This would instill some element of market discipline in a system that currently operates as a monopoly. Competition tends to root out incompetence and failed approaches and promote innovation and excellence.
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In response to the poster who said asked if it was local and state taxes that were suppose to support education.[/quote]
Education funding still remains primarily a state and local responsibility, as is the control of curriculum, selection and hiring of teachers, and building and maintenance of the physical plant.
[/quote]Meanwhile another school was cited as an great school for moving from 21 percentile to 29 percentile, almost a third percent gain. [emphasis added]
Perhaps it was a typographical error, but the difference between 21 and 29 is not "a third percent". It could be stated "more than a third larger" or "more than thirty-three percent larger" or, more properly, "a gain of more than thirty-three percent".
If you are an educator, I hope it is not in the subject area of mathematics or English.
Education funding still remains primarily a state and local responsibility, as is the control of curriculum, selection and hiring of teachers, and building and maintenance of the physical plant.
[/quote]Meanwhile another school was cited as an great school for moving from 21 percentile to 29 percentile, almost a third percent gain. [emphasis added]
Perhaps it was a typographical error, but the difference between 21 and 29 is not "a third percent". It could be stated "more than a third larger" or "more than thirty-three percent larger" or, more properly, "a gain of more than thirty-three percent".
If you are an educator, I hope it is not in the subject area of mathematics or English.
Lex
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- Lex,
Well, the problem is that these are not minimum competency tests. MD had those prior to NCLB; they were called the Functional Tests and ensured that every student graduated with a basic level of skill in reading, writing, and math. The pressure for higher standards comes from institutions of higher ed and business who are feeling the brunt of have to remediate students and employees.
The real issue here is that our education system was never designed to educate every citizen to the same level. Some citizens (our scientists, lawyers, doctors, professors) whould go onto school, while others went into the work force.
The shrinking blue collar market forces us to attempt to retrofit a system into a population it was not designed for initially. Add to that the globalization of the world economy and our country is in big trouble.
I HIGHLY recommend The World is Flat to anyone who wants to understand how educaation, the internet and outsourcing are all closely interrelated.
School choice only works if you have a choice. Every middle school in Baltimore City is on the endangered list, meaning that parents can opt out and choose another middle school. Problem is there is no other middle school to choose from, they are all failing.
And vouchers won't work. A $2000 voucher does not help where private schools cost $15-20,000.
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Why limit the vouchers to $2000? It seems that this is setting a voucher system up for failure before it can be tested. The cost per pupil within the public schools far exceeds $2000 per pupil.
A system where the vouchers would cover most or all of the cost at a variety of schools might have a better chance of success. This way all schools would have the incentive to produce a good product. This is not a "one-size-fits-all" proposal, but it certainly has its merits.
Those with adequate financial resources currently have the ability to choose by opting out of the public education system altogether. A significant segment of what is commonly referred to as the "underclass" would like that opportunity as well.
It is not unreasonable to believe that those with modest financial resources are willing and eager to make the effort to find a way to fund the difference between the value of a voucher and the cost at alternatives that offered superior education for their children.
It would also be possible under a voucher system to require that alternative schools accept vouchers as full payment (again, presuming they are valued equally to what is spent per pupil on public education) for families that meet income qualifications.
This may or may not be the answer, but we do know that the current system is failing and the solution is not simply to increase funding. The current system is ossified and does not serve the interests of the students first and foremost. For the most part it is neither efficient nor innovative.
There are very many good teachers and administrators within the public school system; they deserve praise and decent pay. There is also a significant number of incompetents and those that are burnt-out that are protected by tenure but that are deserving of dismissal.
A system where the vouchers would cover most or all of the cost at a variety of schools might have a better chance of success. This way all schools would have the incentive to produce a good product. This is not a "one-size-fits-all" proposal, but it certainly has its merits.
Those with adequate financial resources currently have the ability to choose by opting out of the public education system altogether. A significant segment of what is commonly referred to as the "underclass" would like that opportunity as well.
It is not unreasonable to believe that those with modest financial resources are willing and eager to make the effort to find a way to fund the difference between the value of a voucher and the cost at alternatives that offered superior education for their children.
It would also be possible under a voucher system to require that alternative schools accept vouchers as full payment (again, presuming they are valued equally to what is spent per pupil on public education) for families that meet income qualifications.
This may or may not be the answer, but we do know that the current system is failing and the solution is not simply to increase funding. The current system is ossified and does not serve the interests of the students first and foremost. For the most part it is neither efficient nor innovative.
There are very many good teachers and administrators within the public school system; they deserve praise and decent pay. There is also a significant number of incompetents and those that are burnt-out that are protected by tenure but that are deserving of dismissal.
Lex
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Lex, please tell me you made a typo here...
I am 100% deadset against the voucher idea, for a variety of reasons I could go into in another thread. My main objection is that those vouchers come out of taxpayer money. I don't have children, but I gladly pay my taxes to fund the public schools, because I think they are important. It angers me to think that my tax dollars are funnelled off to subsidize tuition for a few students to go to a private school (which, IMO, becomes a public school when tax dollars start being used...)
The public school problem is less one of funding than it is one of government mismanagement. And the ones who complain the most about the "sad state of the public schools" are the parents who will not involve themselves in the education of their own children.
Unfunded mandates such as NCLB are simply absurd.
Lex
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But back to the OP: Madame, these two articles don't surprise me at all, not in the least little bit. Abuse is rampant, lies and half-truths abound regarding legislation such as the so-called "Patriot Act." Private organizations (such as banks) and governmental agencies (such as DMV)will flat-out lie to your face to get information from you which they have no legal authority to ask for... such as your social security number.
As for "legislation" granting that cretin Alberto Gonzales the "authority" to appoint US Attorneys, or to ask for an unwarranted resignation from current US Attorneys: the legislation may have passed, but that does not mean it is legal or constitutional. Every time Gonzales opens his stupid little mouth, I am just dumbstruck how little knowledge/respect he has for the US Constitution. Don't believe me? Read some of his opinions about current events and Supreme Court decisions.
Finally, here is just a little point to ponder: why do you think they slip this stuff in after debate and before a vote? And why do you think that they attempt to keep it fairly covert? Oh, and it bears repeating here, does anyone besides me know the dirty little secret of the phrase, "Any other law notwithstanding..."?
As for "legislation" granting that cretin Alberto Gonzales the "authority" to appoint US Attorneys, or to ask for an unwarranted resignation from current US Attorneys: the legislation may have passed, but that does not mean it is legal or constitutional. Every time Gonzales opens his stupid little mouth, I am just dumbstruck how little knowledge/respect he has for the US Constitution. Don't believe me? Read some of his opinions about current events and Supreme Court decisions.
Finally, here is just a little point to ponder: why do you think they slip this stuff in after debate and before a vote? And why do you think that they attempt to keep it fairly covert? Oh, and it bears repeating here, does anyone besides me know the dirty little secret of the phrase, "Any other law notwithstanding..."?
Ok these actions of the current administration do not surprise me in the least. At this point I am just waiting for Bush to do what he really wants to do: Suspend the constitution, dissolve congress and declare himself supreme leader.
