Mormon Church Strikes Blow Against Utah Ban On Conversion Therapy

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Fortunately, psychologists do not perform conversion therapy. Therapists might, but the title of therapist doesn't really carry the weight of psychologist of psychiatrist, the later being the one that would actually perform any type of therapy or analysis, not that one of any value would ever actually do that.

The first amendment protects ones right to practice any religion, however, it does not protect the ability of one to perform acts that are a part of any religion. For example, Rastafarians have not been allowed to use marijuana despite it being part of that religion, though I assume that is changing. People who practice Santeria are not allowed to partake in ceremonies that involve sacrifice, though that may vary in some locations. If I belong to a religion that calls for certain people to be murdered then I don't get an exception from the law based on my religion.

Also, I'm fairly certain that conversion therapy isn't mentioned anywhere in the book of mormon. It isn't even a part of their religion. But if it were, then what if there were another religion that specifically called for the abolishment of conversion therapy. If the first amendment provided protection as they claim it does, then it would also provide protection for that practice. It would be a paradox and neither could be protected without removing the protection of the other, which is why the first amendment allows the freedom to worship any religion, but not carry out illegal acts in the name of that religion.
 

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Fortunately, psychologists do not perform conversion therapy. Therapists might, but the title of therapist doesn't really carry the weight of psychologist of psychiatrist, the later being the one that would actually perform any type of therapy or analysis, not that one of any value would ever actually do that.

The first amendment protects ones right to practice any religion, however, it does not protect the ability of one to perform acts that are a part of any religion. For example, Rastafarians have not been allowed to use marijuana despite it being part of that religion, though I assume that is changing. People who practice Santeria are not allowed to partake in ceremonies that involve sacrifice, though that may vary in some locations. If I belong to a religion that calls for certain people to be murdered then I don't get an exception from the law based on my religion.

Also, I'm fairly certain that conversion therapy isn't mentioned anywhere in the book of mormon. It isn't even a part of their religion. But if it were, then what if there were another religion that specifically called for the abolishment of conversion therapy. If the first amendment provided protection as they claim it does, then it would also provide protection for that practice. It would be a paradox and neither could be protected without removing the protection of the other, which is why the first amendment allows the freedom to worship any religion, but not carry out illegal acts in the name of that religion.
Mormons actually do conversion therapy. They support institutions that use shock and ice baths as part of a way to convert people. It has existed since the 60's.
 
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Mormons actually do conversion therapy. They support institutions that use shock and ice baths as part of a way to convert people. It has existed since the 60's.

Sure, but that's not a part of their religion. Jewish people eat Chinese food and go to the movies on Christmas (I know its just a generalization), but its not a part of their religion so its not protected.

Even if they are doing conversion therapy themselves, they are not doing the therapy as either a psychologist, mostly because psychologists simply don't do that kind of work, or psychiatrists, because a psychiatrist wouldn't do that based on principal, and any exception to that should/would have their license removed.

But as far as the first amendment, there is no protection provided to a religions ability to practice something that is against the law.
 

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Audience, let's face it: Religion has never been a friend or ally to gay people.

While some churches have amended their position over the last several decades, many have not done so.

I remind hateful holy rollers that all people are God's creation, gay people included. To hate gay people is to hate God's creation. Many are dumbfounded at that, and, quickly change the subject.
 
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Mormons actually do conversion therapy. They support institutions that use shock and ice baths as part of a way to convert people. It has existed since the 60's.


If you haven’t seen the movie this might be a good time to view Latter Days Latter Days - Wikipedia . One of the two primary characters is gay and Mormon. When his family finds out he is gay, he is subjected to a program of conversion therapy.

Although the Mormon religion has Christ as a focus for many of their beliefs, the religion as a whole shares little with traditional Protestant or Catholic thinking. One area where conversion therapy might be protected would be a number of secret rituals and relationships intended to be free from secular oversight.
 
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Every time i read or hear about a story like this i'm always reminded of the quote. "Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." by Isaac Asimov. And it never fails to not only be true but gets expanded. Because no one and i mean no one contributes to the decline in christianity quite like christians.

An atheists can scream to the top of their lungs just how bad christianity and most religions are. Could create power point presentations, movies, tv shows, pamphlets and comic books expressing exactly how religion damages human beings individually and mankind as a whole. And still none of that will compare to religious people's and specifically christians in americas
own constant, illogical and unmistakably large negative actions.

It's pretty easy to understand why that is too. When your way of thinking came about from flat out murder, rape, child molestation and the subjugation of people based on the whims of the worst. No amount of upgrading it, ignoring the past and trying to get away from all that will change it's core. Won't change why many religious people are religious to begin with. And those religious people will continuously try to drag everyone else into the pit with them out of nostalgia. Creating the opposite reaction.
 
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Every time i read or hear about a story like this i'm always reminded of the quote. "Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." by Isaac Asimov. And it never fails to not only be true but gets expanded. Because no one and i mean no one contributes to the decline in christianity quite like christians.

An atheists can scream to the top of their lungs just how bad christianity and most religions are. Could create power point presentations, movies, tv shows, pamphlets and comic books expressing exactly how religion damages human beings individually and mankind as a whole. And still none of that will compare to religious people's and specifically christians in americas
own constant, illogical and unmistakably large negative actions.

It's pretty easy to understand why that is too. When your way of thinking came about from flat out murder, rape, child molestation and the subjugation of people based on the whims of the worst. No amount of upgrading it, ignoring the past and trying to get away from all that will change it's core. Won't change why many religious people are religious to begin with. And those religious people will continuously try to drag everyone else into the pit with them out of nostalgia. Creating the opposite reaction.


"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians," - Gandhi
 
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"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians," - Gandhi
You have pointed out a significantly large failure of any religion claiming to be Christian (or Mormon or Muslin or…). And it is especially disappointing for those who see value in their particular belief system.

Problem is, what you have focused on is a set of beliefs (a religion) and not the people who translate and practice the belief system. And there is where the problem(s) originate. If religions didn’t exist, the same kind of destructive processes would still be operating in politics, sports, business, regional and world cultures, families, sexual groupings, philosophical groupings (like atheist), capitalist, socialist and so on.

It is human nature to divide people into groups of leaders and followers around virtually any topic then create roles and rules for each person to follow. Part of that kind of structure usually includes penalties for not following the rules. Sports teams use sanctions and fines while Mormons use conversion or reversion therapies.
 

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You have pointed out a significantly large failure of any religion claiming to be Christian (or Mormon or Muslin or…). And it is especially disappointing for those who see value in their particular belief system.

Problem is, what you have focused on is a set of beliefs (a religion) and not the people who translate and practice the belief system. And there is where the problem(s) originate. If religions didn’t exist, the same kind of destructive processes would still be operating in politics, sports, business, regional and world cultures, families, sexual groupings, philosophical groupings (like atheist), capitalist, socialist and so on.

It is human nature to divide people into groups of leaders and followers around virtually any topic then create roles and rules for each person to follow. Part of that kind of structure usually includes penalties for not following the rules. Sports teams use sanctions and fines while Mormons use conversion or reversion therapies.

Not too sure that can be described as human nature though. I might be being kind of nitpicky here but some sure all or most no. And then there are the current systems we have where in which creating those kinds of people is built into many of our systems.

As far as i can tell and i might be wrong (since i made another comment before about putin not really understanding what he was doing and regretting it when it seems now he's all in) but take capitalism for instance. It punishes the poor so much and so often while pointing to the poor for being 100% responsible for their own poorness that it creates a kind of self hatred within certain kinds of poor people. Who then spend their entire lives trying not to be in the most shady ways imaginable. In effect continuing the cycle of poor hatred simply because of the system that hated them to begin with.

Pretty sure that if capitalism didn't exist or didn't exist to the extreme it does today with that message those people's natures would have never become what they are.
 
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Not too sure that can be described as human nature though. I might be being kind of nitpicky here but some sure all or most no. And then there are the current systems we have where in which creating those kinds of people is built into many of our systems.

As far as i can tell and i might be wrong (since i made another comment before about putin not really understanding what he was doing and regretting it when it seems now he's all in) but take capitalism for instance. It punishes the poor so much and so often while pointing to the poor for being 100% responsible for their own poorness that it creates a kind of self hatred within certain kinds of poor people. Who then spend their entire lives trying not to be in the most shady ways imaginable. In effect continuing the cycle of poor hatred simply because of the system that hated them to begin with.

Pretty sure that if capitalism didn't exist or didn't exist to the extreme it does today with that message those people's natures would have never become what they are.

Thanks for some thoughtful feedback

First I personally couldn’t run fast enough to get away from the Mormon Church and its theology. But here is a closer view of what is likely going on there.

The OP started this discussion by alerting us to the likelihood that the Mormon Church will try to continue their form of reparative (or conversion) therapy by claiming it is a fundamental part of their religious practice. Basically this position would parallel the claim (and now sanctioned) use of mind-altering chemicals by Native Americans in order to properly perform worship.

It’s not difficult to figure out how Mormon theology would rationalize using virtually any kind of corrective measures they would choose to apply to those they see as sexual deviants.

According to a standard Mormon theological work, Doctrines of Salvation, one finds this definition: “By fullness of the gospel is meant all the ordinances and principles that pertain to the exaltation of the celestial kingdom” (vol. 1, p. 160).

Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie said, “This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods” (Mormon Doctrine, 472).

Bottom line: The Mormon religion is built on “works” associated with family.

--As a result: Both you and your family will be judged now and for eternity on how well select family values (as defined by the church) are maintained.

--Therefore: Having any kind of same-sex attractions and acting on them violates the doctrines associated with the continuation of the family unit.

--Finally, same sex attractions (or those who have them) must be eliminated from the Mormon Church so that “exaltation of the celestial kingdom” might occur.
==============

****But corrupt Mormon theology is not the bigger story here. The problem goes back to humans and how they think and how they value options. When human thinking and activity are involved corruption will occur.
 
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Audience, let's face it: Religion has never been a friend or ally to gay people.

While some churches have amended their position over the last several decades, many have not done so.

I remind hateful holy rollers that all people are God's creation, gay people included. To hate gay people is to hate God's creation. Many are dumbfounded at that, and, quickly change the subject.
Religion has never been a friend or ally to ANY people.
 
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