Most Americans say tax rich to balance budget

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_talltpaguy, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. B_talltpaguy

    B_talltpaguy New Member

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    Most Americans say tax rich to balance budget




    Full article here...
    Most Americans say tax rich to balance budget: poll - Yahoo! News
     
  2. midlifebear

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    I say "Tax the 2% richest 'Mericuhns!" And from this group cull the most succulent to make cured Christmas hams.
     
  3. sargon20

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    I saw this and knew instantly it would never appear on Fox News. Expect it to go no where. The Republicans would rather see the New Deal rolled back (no Medicare, no Social Security) and Defense Dept budget doubled to balance the budget. Voodoo works!!
     
  4. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    In case "most Americans" hadn't realised they didn't have a tax problem until the housing market blew up in their face. Whatever problems they imagine they have won't be solved by taxing the rich, it'll either have zero effect (the most likely outcome) or make things worse.

    You guys are gluttons for punishment.
     
    #4 Speculator, Jan 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  5. Drifterwood

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    Can you tell me what iss defined, in monetary terms, as Middle Class and Wealthy?

    Most people in the UK think that people who earn more than $100K a year are wealthy. It's a game that the really wealthy play to deflect attention away from what real money looks like and it allows politicians to justify the tax burden on middle earners.
     
  6. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    The real way to fix the problem is to provide those who are born, cultivated and eventually left stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty with the tools necessary to grow. That starts with education.

    But that would mean understanding that there is an obvious gap between the rich and the poor that has grown exponentially since the 80s and it can't be solved with overly simplified universal solutions. However, there are too many ill-informed people, many of which wouldn't know a real day of struggle in their lives, who would consider that Socialism and would yelp till the cows come home with fairy tales of smaller government and imaginary budget cuts.
     
  7. midlifebear

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    Before we get all excited about who is rich in the USA, let's begin with the recent poverty rate and guidelines.

    The following 2008–09 poverty threshold was measured according to Department of Health and Human Services Poverty Guidelines[13] which are illustrated in the table below.

    Persons in Family
    Family Unit for
    Contiguous 48
    States--------------Alaska----------Hawaii
    1. $10,830--------$13,530--------$12,460
    2. $14,570--------$18,210--------$16,760
    3. $18,310--------$22,890--------$21,060
    4. $22,050--------$27,570--------$25,360
    5. $25,790--------$32,250--------$29,660
    6. $29,530--------$36,930--------$33,960
    7. $33,270--------$41,610--------$38,260
    8. $37,010--------$46,290--------$42,560
    For each additional person in contiguous US, add $3,740
    For each additional person in Alaska add $4,680
    For each additional person in Hawaii add $4,300

    So, according to US government Stats if you are single and make $37,011 in the lower 48 States you're lower middle class.

    Throw in a $1,200 monthly mortgage payment and you can easily see why most married 'Mericuhns work full time, if they are lucky.

    In my opinion, if you're single and making $50,000 a year you're living on the edge. After adjusting for the real (not the governement's idea) cost of living, you may have enough to buy a good used car. But most I know living on that amount are also eating a lot of Top Ramen, macaroni and cheese, and beans. At least the beans are good are a healthy food option.
     
  8. Hoss

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    yeah, well most Americans say Cheez Whiz is the best cheese ever and that Redi whip is the best whipped cream (after Cool Whip)

    I say tax the 5% wealthiest and any that have a residence outside the U.S. can be taxed an additional 4%.

    That's why the tax law can be passed. The accountants are aware of each and ever loophole and make sure their clients can end up paying as little as can be or nothing and in many cases getting money back.

    The problem with these income guidelines is that they expect the family of 5 in bumfuck, anystate to have the same costs as the family of 5 living in a large city. Food, clothing&housing costs vary dramatically and where $100,000 mght be a huge sum in 1 place, it's a barely squeakiing by sum in another.

    Several yrs. ago my then wife and me selected a house, it was a split level 4 b.r., 2 bath on a half acre plot, her sister and husband purchased an identical house with 1/3 acre plot and they paid $15,000 more and then had a higher property tax as well. They were closer to the city than we were and in a different state. Guidelines make the mistake of averagng which makes a lot of folks get short changed.
     
  9. wallyj84

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    To be fair, that depends heavily on where you are in the US. In my home state, Indiana, $37,000 a year is a decent income and enough to live comfortably and have a decent savings, assuming you're single and live within your means. With $50,000, you're comfortably middle class.
     
  10. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    I expect your solution amounts to stealing from one set of people "the rich", and then handing it to another set of people "the poor".

    Why is it that lefties are obsessed with money? Especially other peoples.

    If I find out that somebody is doing for themselves I generally feel happy for them, I wouldn't in a million years start plotting against them.
     
  11. Jason

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    There are frequent calls in the UK to "tax the rich" with similar problems around what we mean by "the rich".

    What is conveniently ignored is that it is almost impossible to tax the truly rich. This is the group that employs the best tax advisors for tax avoidance. They also have the option of becoming domiciled elsewhere. For example in the UK if you are rich it is possible to be legally resident in the Channel Islands which are British but not part of the UK and which have far lower tax rates. For people physically resident there London is a short commute (by air).

    The groups that are practical to tax are low and middle earners. Political considerations usually mean that tax hikes are targetted towards the middle earners (though our present VAT (sales tax) increase hits everyone). The middle earners in the UK usually feel the squeeze. The UK middle have lower salaries than in the US, far higher accommodation costs, and don't get me started on petrol prices (now over £1.30 a litre). Additionally they may well be aying for private health insurance and education in addition to paying for the state systems.
     
  12. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Hoss made a great point earlier - The problem with these income guidelines is that they expect the family of 5 in bumfuck, anystate to have the same costs as the family of 5 living in a large city. Food, clothing&housing costs vary dramatically and where $100,000 mght be a huge sum in 1 place, it's a barely squeakiing by sum in another.

    $50,000 in a city like New York wouldn't get you far at all. The cost of living in or near Manhattan (in the boroughs or right across the river in Hoboken or Jersey City) is so much larger than most other places in the country, from housing all the way down to a bottled water at a convenient store. If we sold our 1 bedroom condo in Manhattan (even with the current market as is), just half of the money generated would get us a move-in conditioned, two floored, 5 bedroom house with 2.5 baths, front & backyard, garage, livable attic and basement space back in our hometown of Boston. As much as someone can love New York, after a while the outrageous costs start to get to you. And what happens when people are born into these more expensive areas? It's not as easy as picking up your things and moving every time another state or city looks more affordable. In the 37 years I've been living (soon to be 38), someone I know has had to move to a new home 5 different times. That's roughly 7-8 years in any one space, whereas some families have the benefit of being raised in one place and one neighborhood all of their lives. Stability vs. the constant uncertainty of maintaining a home. Over the long run that does effect you physically and psychologically.

    Our government doesn't take any of these additional factors into consideration when generating federal poverty levels and the minimum wage. That's one of the reasons why there is so much arguing over taxes, the economy and the budget because even most politicians we elect have no clue how hard it is for people out there. It also doesn't help matters when a good number of our newly elected congresspeople vow to maintain Defense spending and cut budgets for Education & Transportation to try and solve the problem, because that just takes an already hard situation and make it close to impossible. So not only do we have people born into areas where making what is perceived as a "solid middle class salary" does no good, we have the uppers taking away more of the vital tools necessary to help bring up better generations of people who can eventually alleviate much of the financial stress in this nation. Instead, the cycle of being "born into poverty" keeps moving, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow (with no end in sight), and every year we have these fruitless nationwide debates about taxing the rich. It's either this, or getting government to focus on the areas in our country that need the most assistance to make sure a respectable standard of living can be generated and maintained... and it kills me that some people (even on this board) are vehemently against both of these ideals.
     
    #12 B_VinylBoy, Jan 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  13. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Almost everyone is on the take, the uber-rich pay very little tax or wangle it so that HMRC end up owing them, the middle have been gorging themselves on property prices and gov't non-jobs since 97, and the poor live on state handouts. It makes me wonder who is actually making net payments into the system, my best guess is the Chinese.

    An economic collapse is too good for our nation, Lord only knows how we've made it near the top of the pile in terms of living standards, educational achievments and political stability.
     
  14. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    That's if you want to consider #14 and #18 rankings for the economy, #3 and #9 for governance, and #9 and #22 for education to be top of the pile. Grant it, out of the hundreds of countries that exist in this world that may be something to brag about. But neither the USA or the UK should be gloating about successes right now.
     
  15. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Knowing the sort of sites you visit I bet Sweden is at the top of all three of those "impartial" indices, closely followed by Cuba and North Korea. :rolleyes:

    The UK is the sixth largest economy in the world so #14 and #18 seems a tad harsh, our GDP per capita isn't too bad either. We don't deserve to be at no. 6 imo, but that's what the official stats tell us.

    These indexes gloss over the realities anyway, if you're rich you can pretty much move into any country in the world and receive 5* treatment, Russia, China, the UK, the U.S, they're all number one. If you're poor however the UK is head and shoulders above the rest. We distribute every single penny we collect in income tax as social security remember and you're unlikely to get shot in the street by some rival gang. The UK is one of the few places in the world where you can lose your job and find yourself financially better off, but it means having a baby to enable the benefit collection.
     
  16. midlifebear

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    I agree very much with Hoss. It does depend upon where you live. However, $50,000 doesn't go far in Nevada, even though we don't have State Income Tax or Sales Tax of food. For example, if I or one of my ranch hands decides to drive into town for a quart of milk and some basics to keep enough flour, sugar, spices, beer, -- gotta provide beer for the ranch hands -- that's a 50 mile round trip excursion, where we also have to fill up on diesel or gas at about $4.30 (average) a gallon. Sure, I'd like to get a new, more efficient 4 x 4 truck since the current one is 16 years old and gets 9 mpg (on a good day). And if we need to deal with a bank it's 150 miles round trip to Elko, and that doesn't even take into account the drive to and from the ranch to Highway 93. I can afford it, but the ranch hands can't and they get a free place to live and $15 an hour for a 40-hour work week. Of course, they don't work 9:00 to 5:00. It's a fucking ranch for Christ's sake!

    The $50,000 sounds real good to anyone who is starving for a job in Las Vegas right now. But regardless where you live in Vegas your city fees (which are built into your rent if you don't own) run about $195 a month. Water is expensive in the West. As is gas or diesel. But Las Vegas has a whiz bang city transportation system which is fine if you live and work in one of the few city centers (Henderson, North Las Vegas, or near old down town Vegas). And then there are the electric bills that will bankrupt you when it gets to and remains at 40 C (104 F) from the end of June through to the middle of September. But as they say, it's a dry heat. Sure, you can live on $50,000 a year, but forget about saving or investing much for your future. And I'm not including the $1,800 - $2,400 monthly mortgage payment most folks were advised by "financial professionals" that they could afford. But you're not going to become rich making $50,000 a year in Vegas, anywhere in Nevada, and just be thankful you can find a humble place to rent in most of California for the same price of a low-end mortgage payment where you can expect to automatically being taxed anywhere from 6.5 to almost 7% on all purchases.


    Hmmmmm . . . ya gotta love that Top Ramen. And you've got to love Las Vegas, home repossession capital of the US of A! Wahoo! ¡Viva la clase media!

    Anyone want to give a general idea of what $100,000 is going to do for you in Chicago or Manhattan?
     
    #16 midlifebear, Jan 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  17. midlifebear

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    And to keep Hoss happy, the USA DOES tax us expats who make our livings outside of the USA. In fact, it's the only country to do so. I pay loads of taxes to Spain and that same income from which I pay taxes to Spain is taxed by the IRS a second time. No deductions for having already paid half a liver and one kidney to Spain.

    Sad thing is, I get a bigger bang for my taxes in Spain than I do in the USA. Much better health system that is world class and shames what is available in the USA. Transportation is pretty good, too. Don't own an auto. If and when I need an auto it's much easier to rent for the week or month. It's rather nice to live in a city where just about everything is within eight blocks of a Metro Station or bus stop.
     
    #17 midlifebear, Jan 4, 2011
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  18. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    And if you would have actually checked the links (instead of speculated through the narrowness of your own political bigotry), you would have seen that Switzerland was #1 for governance and New Zealand was #1 for education.

    They do the research and you do nothing but judge. Let's stick to the facts on this one and not a preconceived ideology.

    That's nice even if it's slightly exaggerated about the rival gang nonsense. Not every place in America is comparable to Compton. Now, do you have anything to add in regards to the subject matter? I actually respect many of the posters in this thread so you're not going to hijack it.
     
    #18 B_VinylBoy, Jan 4, 2011
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  19. midlifebear

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    And no one is going to call out el Specky for writing "indexes" instead of indices? How 'Mericuhn of him. :smile:
     
  20. Bbucko

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    Seems to me that I've noticed something along those lines before myself :rolleyes:
     
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