Muammar tittering on the brink

Discussion in 'Politics' started by vince, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. vince

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    Things are moving fast...

    Hundreds have been killed and the anger at 40 years of repression has boiled over.

    Benghazi and the eastern portion of Libya is in the hands of the rebels.

    In Tripoli, security forces are holed up in a few buildings, fires are burning uncontrolled and senior diplomats and officials announced defections.

    This afternoon two Libyan air force fighter jets piloted by senior officers landed unannounced and without clearance in Malta after being ordered to bomb protesters.

    UK Foreign Secretary Haig floated the rumour a few minutes ago that Qaddafi is on his way to Venezuela. (denied by Libya and Venezuelan govts)

    I hope they string up old Muammar el-Qaddafi.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011221133557377576.html
     
    #1 vince, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  2. Industrialsize

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  3. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    I must say what's happening in the Arab world is so gripping, I never thought I'd live to see the downfall of men like Qadaffi or Mubarak or Ben Ali. I think this will be one of the defining moments in modern history if a whole batch of vicious and wicked Dictators and Emirs and Kings are done away with in the region.


    In my opinion after Egypt the two most powerful states in the region, Iran and Saudi Arabia are where all of this is heading. Iran is already in turmoil. I'm not sure there's much information about Saudi Arabia, but I fervently wish that the Al-Sauds go the way of all the rest of these appalling regimes.

    That it's actually a relatively unarmed mass popular uprising in Libya which is storming army bases and arming itself to overthrow one of the most brutal and entrenched dictators in the world is breathtaking. Truly epic. I'm really moved by what's happening in Libya.

    The people of Libya are having anti-aircraft artillery used on them by their own government, and frankly the response from the rest of the world is shameful.
     
  4. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    They'll only have more despots. Bombing your own side is never a good idea though!

    Israel won't be happy.

    The balance of power has changed; who will win the rush to control it; & is this all being financed by an unseen hand.

    I'd have thought Gaddafi would have gone to Sweden, as he only likes fucking big titted blondes.

    The ROW should keep out of it. Nations must self determine, whatever the cost, though it's going to be less than a full on civil war it seems.

    I'd caveat that such popular revolutions brought the Terror of the 1st French republic, the Bolsheviks through the backdoor, & Mao & co among others, each of which was more tyrannical than the regime before.

    Edit: I'd also notice that Hezbollah were put into power in Lebanon during the Egypt crisis.

    Hey maybe the end of days are here, & we're going to have a conflagration in the Middle East - 2012 & all that. Are there any coincidences?
     
    #4 B_crackoff, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  5. B_nyvin

    B_nyvin New Member

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    Not much is going to change other then names. In Tunisia it already looks like it's going back to a dictatorship which will be pretty much the same as the last one. You can't just change things overnight like this, takes quite a bit of time and lots of education.
     
  6. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    The issue of self determination is not what I'm saying the international community should be getting involved in. The IC should be condemning the use of heavy artillery on unarmed civillians in the strongest possible terms, and Qadaffi's assets in foreign banks should be frozen.
     
  7. Jason

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    I'm watching the events with hope and fear - guess we all are.

    Many UK universities have links with Libya directly funded by the Libyan government to support Libyan government aims. Typically they are in the area of transfer of a specifi area of UK expertise to Libya through training of their students and direct involvement of UK academics. I see LSE has just formally cut its ties with Libya - maybe other UK universities should follow suit.
     
  8. vince

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    Yes the fortunes that dictators abscond with as they leave is appalling. The Turkish press reported that the Mubarak family has a global fortune in the neighborhood of 50 billion dollars.
     
  9. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    I love the way Gadaffi's name is spelt at least 10 ways. I even know of 4 pronounciations at least.

    As far as I'm aware, a lot of the civillians are actually armed in certain pockets, it's not like gun ownership is illegal in Libya, or Yemen or most Arab countries - & allegedly (!) most of the crackdown is from sub saharan mercenaries.

    I worry about assets being frozen by the banks, & not by a UN mandate.

    The Iran hostage crisis was a direct result of billions that the Shah had fled with being held by (Ithink) ChaseManhattan, & JPM. This came to light when a maverick congressman went to Iran, & secured the release of 100 hostages, in return for publicizing their demand of the return of state assets. The congressman was censured by the US, the exchange therefore failed, & ultimately the release was secured, not by Carter, but by an employee of the bank...

    ...who only gave the Iranians half their assets back, whilst STEALING the rest for themselves.

    This will happen again with both Mubarak & Khaddaffi (another spelling LOL - it's worse than Jalfrezi in an Indian restaurant), bankers will get rich, & the citizens will be stuffed.
     
  10. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    I'd like to address the language that's being used by the UN, & practically all the Western media.

    "Genocide" seems a bit twattish. Crushing rebellions is never genocide (within days!), & can you really self-genocide? Can you really be self racist?

    The words are emotive & designed to provoke emotional reactions. What is occurring isn't yet on such a scale, nor targeting any specific ethnic/religious groupings.

    So why is it being used now about the deaths of hundreds...

    ...When it wasn't used about the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan & Iraq!!!

    Whilst obviously all dictators are twats, exactly why didn't any mass insurrections occur before, especially as it seems bloody easy? Why doesn't it happen in the rest of Africa?

    OIL? Again?

    It seems like all these chaps have simultaneously had the rug pulled out from under them. The defection of the military (whose bosses are up to their ears in ill gotten gains), the police force, & international allies.

    I also happen to know that highly expensive specialist (non weapon) technical emergency equipment has very recently been transferred to ALL of these countries(even Bahrain) by a major firm- direct to the military - which enables them to operate the country fully in a prolonged state of emergency.

    Its also now going to the former Soviet Republics!

    There is far too much coincidence for my liking for there not being a hidden force guiding all this.

    Sure, the countries affected do have higher literacy rates, & massive youth unemployment - DUE TO having a population explosion thanks to the West(medicines etc), that makes their countries bottom heavy. I don't think for a second, however, that the internet has played much part to Mo Blow in Egypt, or Libya at all.

    The only people who ever benefit from chaos histotrically (& who generally create the chaos)are the tossers who finance it all - & I find the media's role shameful in its language, especially when it has never deployed the same terms against our glorious leaders.

    However, Viva the common man, wherever he stands!
     
  11. Jason

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    Genocide has a precise meaning in international law, and I don't see how the events in Libya can be called a genocide. The events probably are a crime against humanity - bombing your own people seems pretty clearly that.

    The fall of communism in Eastern Europe was a form of revolution that brought in a better future for most of the people. We have to hope that the Arab world can manage a comparable transformation. Yes I know there are enormous risks, but we in the West haven't got any way of stopping the process so we've got to do what we can to get a good outcome. I think Cameron getting himself out to Egypt today has been excellent. As a small scale event I think the London School of Economics has been right to cut ties with the Libyan government. - we need hundreds of similar small statements. We in the West - governments, organisations, individuals - have to do what we can and lets hope that the Arab nations are able to move forward.

    Tunisia and Egypt have fallen. Libya and Bahrain are surely falling. I've heard of demonstrations in Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Djibouti. Anywhere I've missed? Saudi Arabia is the only big player not to have demonstrations - yet. If the whole lot fall (as did the dictators in Eastern Europe) then we've got to do our best to support the emerging governments.

    Outside the Arab world, Iran is the unknown quantity. From the point of view of the West just about any government that could be imagined would be better than the genocidal maniac they now have. There is some unrest in China also, but very little media coverage. For China to topple its dictators seems almost impossible, but it is now almost impossible not 100% impossible.

    Tunisia was presented as the Wikileaks Revolution. Is Wikileaks a factor in any of the other demonstrations?
     
  12. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    I must cordially disagree with your assessment of the much misquoted, & very highly intelligent ahmadinejad. Have you seen him interviewed? You may not agree with him, but wow he's impressive.

    However, I don't trust any country that doesn't allow drinking; yet we live in a country that seems hell bent on making it harder for us to enjoy it, despite our apparent hatred of the public funds consuming, geriatric, alzheimer ridden population, draining public funds, & generally raising the spectre of state assisted suicide - which is quite stupid when you think about it!

    Lets see how the West has enjoyed Arab democracy - The election of Hamas in Palestine - well that led to them being ostracized; Hezbollah are now in charge of the Lebanon!, & didn't Algeria recently elect a party of Allah, which immediately declared there was no need for future elections because God was now in power - leading to an immediate military coup?

    The West has no history of liking Arab electoral results whatsoever! It's a lie for Cameron et al to claim otherwise: they're only playing to their domestic audiences - the Arabs aren't so stupid - or forgiving.

    The truth is - pragmatically - that all Arab countries have exceptionally young populations compared to the West, & high youth unemployment, in a youth slanted population, added to testosterone, will generally only lead to rebellion, emigration & war.

    It's all so predictable. All we need is some flashpoint with Israel again, & the whole region could go up in flames.

    What if the Gaza strip rises? Will the West be so supportive then? LOL!

    Edit: Your assessment of genocide is very similar to mine. Don't you feel that we are being led by the media, & let's face it, global organisations in a certain direction?

    Whenever I see everyone going one way, I'm pretty sure that the truth lies the other.
     
    #12 B_crackoff, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  13. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    Well actually Libyans are not armed and private gun ownership is strictly controlled by the government. It is more common for civilians to own guns in Yemen, and some other Arab countries.

    It does look as though Qadaffi is using mercenaries on his own people. Al Jazira reports that the airforce has been bombing protesters in Tripoli, but the latest is that Qadaffi has fled the capital.

    The reason there are a number of different spellings of Qadaffi's name is there are a variety of different dialects of Arabic his name can be rendered in. Some spell his name according to translation from standard Arabic spelling some use the spelling appropriate to a translation from Egyptian Masri, or Maghrebi Libyan/North African Arab dialects.
     
  14. Drifterwood

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    The Libyan army needs to see the writing on the wall and remove the mercenaries, and old farty pants. He is finished even if the people can't overthrow him now, ensuing sanctions will paralyse his dictatorship.
     
  15. luka82

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    The thing is-there is no such thing as a spontenious revolution.
    When things changed in Serbia we knew the money and support came from the West.
    I hate dictators! But I have to wonder who is behind this.
     
  16. Drifterwood

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    I would not be looking for a single conspiracy theory.

    Even in the freeest countries, we know that our governments lie to us everyday or more politely put a PR spin to encourage us to swallow their bull.

    I have personally seen a growing non acceptance of this shit in the countries now in revolution on and off for the past twenty years. These regimes are a global anachronism and they are in a part of the world sufficiently cared for by the powers for the necessary change to be supported. Not that Mr. Obama appeared to be ahead of the game.

    State TV vs. AlJaz, CNN or the BBC - no chance. Welcome to the other world.
     
  17. petergroot

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    I certainly am not as knowledgable as the posters above, but I know from experience:
    coincidence does not realy exsist.
    Current Dictators and "evil" guys were once "friends and allies" of some power-block (you know, strategic aliances and all that crap)
    Figure who benefits: invariably some multi-national.
    What seems like a grass-roots movement , full of ideological utopian yearnings gets hijacked and corrupted by religous nutters and populations end up worse of afterwards.
    So I suspect same -same old shite.
    Meanwhile I sympahize with the people who are caught up in it, while the media gets into a frenzy. Nothing else exsists according to the BBC etc.
    Nasty ol' Kim Ill and all the other usual bogey-men are back in the cupboard untill they are to be dusted off for distractions as required.
     
  18. D_Tim McGnaw

    D_Tim McGnaw Account Disabled

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    As if we didn't know already Qadaffi's speech today showed him to be a total psychotic lunatic.
     
  19. cruztbone

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    Ghadaffi cant die soon enough to make me happy. what a bastard! God protect the people of Libya.
     
  20. Drifterwood

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