Multiculturalism Failure or Political Profiling?

[B_crackoff]

Did I say it was?

I was making the point that the BNP and EDL are racists and will not be tolerated so easily, as they also live on the same one way street. Cameron is putting them in the same bag as the radicalised muslims.

The EDL is just against radical Islam - it solicits any support from whomever isn't a radical Islamist.

Gandhi said & wrote an awful lot of explicitly racist material, & had a pretty identical view on immigrants to the BNP.

The main parties, both sides of the pond, both spout anti racist rhetoric, whilst simultaneously invading sovereign territory overseas, & murdering just as many foreigners as they can.

Then, so called "anti racists" hypocritically vote for these slaughterers of men, women & children alike, whilst chastising the BNP - which has a policy of no war & respect for other countries sovereignty. It's bizarre.

There's no such thing as a lack of prejudice, there's only "my prejudice is better than yours".

The point Cameron was making was that tolerance is a 2 way street, that has been one way traffic - and that has to end in order to achieve the equality that everyone seems to clamour for.

Don't be an apologist for Muslims who'd be quite happy for an Islamic state, with the concommitant risks for homosexuals, women, & Welshmen who like a few pints after a game.

 

[eurotop40]

I will just ignore what eurotop is saying from now on.

Muslims have lived among us for centuries never to cause a problem only after the events of 9-11 they were labeled as extremists and dangerous for political gains.

So no multiculturism hasn't failed but it has gotten a big blow.

WM can ignore me. But right he in the Netherlands knows well enough what happened to people like Van Gogh, and that did not come from a born again christian.

 

[Thirdlegproduction]

WM can ignore me. But right he in the Netherlands knows well enough what happened to people like Van Gogh, and that did not come from a born again christian.

It did not come from a muslim either it came from an individual that wasnt right in his head. he used his faith and believes to justify what he did but if it was a muslim thing then they should have been lynching van gogh all together with the million muslims that are present in this country.

you condemn an entire religion and culture by the actions of one person.

It's like me saying all swiss people are racist and only know how to make watches and army knifes.

 

[eurotop40]

...
you condemn an entire religion and culture by the actions of one person.

OK, let's put it this way... Could you show your magnificent tool online under Sharia law? Probably the religious police would catch you and chop it off... Sharia law is not the craziness of ONE person...

 

[B_crackoff]

Muslims have lived among us for centuries never to cause a problem only after the events of 9-11 they were labeled as extremists and dangerous for political gains..

????????????????????????????????????????

Exactly where in the Western world has any significant Muslim population existed before 1950?

This is a pretty uneducated comment. The only times prior to that when there was a significant Muslim population were when invading Muslim armies were battered out of France from 732, finally thrown out of Spain after a 760 year occupation in 1492, & repelled by Austria in the 16th C!

Almost all of the Muslim population, anywhere in the West, dates from the late 50s - that's why the lack of desire to tolerate the indigenous customs & culture sticks out so badly.

 

[Thirdlegproduction]

Yet you act as if being muslim means to support the sharia.

Why do you think muslims moved away to the west?

9 out 47 muslim countries use the sharia in some degree and even then the people living in these countries do not have to agree with the sharia law system just because they live in them.

you have no valid argument eurotop and im inclined to think you are actually too young to be on this website.

 

[Thirdlegproduction]

????????????????????????????????????????

Exactly where in the Western world has any significant Muslim population existed before 1950?

This is a pretty uneducated comment. The only times prior to that when there was a significant Muslim population were when invading Muslim armies were battered out of France from 732, finally thrown out of Spain after a 760 year occupation in 1492, & repelled by Austria in the 16th C!

Almost all of the Muslim population, anywhere in the West, dates from the late 50s - that's why the lack of desire to tolerate the indigenous customs & culture sticks out so badly.

Well you raised the bar by saying significant but even in the 50's muslims weren't treated as today, they were different but not made out to be religious terrorists bend on world domination.

muhammed ali and the african american muslims are a very fine example.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

No rational thinking Muslim adheres or practices every single law or practice preached in its religion. For anyone to act as if they do is ridiculous. Not even the most religious of people on this board live up to every word of their theocratic credos. The whole Sharia Law argument is based on nothing more than fear, paranoia, and religious xenophobia. Even though I am not a Muslim, I get sick of people trying to find a specific type of person to paint as evil, instead of finding the one or few individuals who are causing the problem.

Just how prejudiced we want to be, people? Even if you claim not to like a religion, it's ridiculous to tell another group of people how any follower of one will do something bad to you if you allow them to live freely in a society that is supposed to be based on religious freedoms. It's not as if the most recent batch of newly aware social samaritans even care enough about gay people to make this argument sincerely and out of concern. They just want to be "right" about something and will use anything in order to have the accolade.

 

[B_crackoff]

Well you raised the bar by saying significant but even in the 50's muslims weren't treated as today, they were different but not made out to be religious terrorists bend on world domination.

muhammed ali and the african american muslims are a very fine example.

I'd say that was because no one was bombing anyone then! I know several places in the UK where you can stand & listen to (i hope) extremists, advocating the destruction of the sinful West - with a fair number of nodding dog adherents. It's not exactly in the closet over here.

Then there's the double standard that most non muslim young women are seen by quite a few as wanton sluts, yet they'll physically try to stop any type of relationship with their sisters. This is perpetuated by continuing to marry relatives in the "old country".

A bit of love & integration would go a long way, but there is massive self ghettoisation in the UK, which allows an entirely separate culture to develop, at odds with rest of the community. Police treat any disturbances in these areas with kid gloves.

That doesn't mean that most of them are radical - but it does allow radicalism to flourish that is at odds with the social mores of Europe.

BTW - Didn't Ali follow the Nation of Islam at one time - who believed that all white people were devils, blacks were a master race, & advocated segregation? (Before he found out his great grandad was Irish!)

 

[TomCat84]

????????????????????????????????????????

Exactly where in the Western world has any significant Muslim population existed before 1950?

This is a pretty uneducated comment. The only times prior to that when there was a significant Muslim population were when invading Muslim armies were battered out of France from 732, finally thrown out of Spain after a 760 year occupation in 1492, & repelled by Austria in the 16th C!

Almost all of the Muslim population, anywhere in the West, dates from the late 50s - that's why the lack of desire to tolerate the indigenous customs & culture sticks out so badly.

Muslims have been in America since the 1600s....

 

[Drifterwood]

Let's hope that our country is able to distinguish extremism and deal with it in an intelligent manner. Then there will be no reason for the argued opposition extremism.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Let's hope that our country is able to distinguish extremism and deal with it in an intelligent manner. Then there will be no reason for the argued opposition extremism.

I tend to be optimistic about things, however, in this case I feel myself continually losing faith. Regardless if a person can distinguish the differences, most people simply don't care anymore. It's apparent in this thread, on this board, and with the constant downward spiral of related news stories. I don't know how many times I can hear or read the banter about anti-Muslim this and anti-Muslim that, as if eliminating what they perceive to be a threat will ever solve their problems. No... all they'll do is focus on the next "threat" to what they visualize as Utopia and the process starts all over again.

It's been a constant triangle of fear rotated by some of the most ignorant, fear mongering politicians on our planet since 2008... Islam, Gays & "Brown People". Just how many more times do the buttons need to be pressed for cheap political gain? And why would anyone expect those who fall in line with one or several of these descriptions to be civil when so many other forces are hell bent on condemning your entire existence?

 

[alx]

That's such an odd thing to say, considering how, as capitol of the Empire, London was arguably the most cosmopolitan place on Earth. One cannot be monocultural and an empire: it just doesn't work that way.

No it really isn't, yes we have had and still do have many cultures existing however it's never been true multiculturalism.
I'd say several monocultures simply trying to put up with each other.

I really feel the whole multiculturalism thing, sitting down eating my lunch at work.
In one corner you have a group of Polish keeping themselves to themselves, in the next corner you have the Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indians keeping themselves to themseleve, then in the other corner you'll have the Somalis, then you'll have the blacks on another table, whites on another.

It's uncomfortable, unfriendly. I do seriously hope multicultralism does work but to be totally honest I can't see it.

 

[Jason]

Okay here's a practical problem I know something about.

The UK has many city universities with in the region of 15,000-30,000 students (many of them 1992 formations from polytechnics). These have substantial numbers of overseas students. All the world's major religions are represented. There will be large moslem numbers.

Universities do support student social and religious activities. Typically they have provision for religion through a "Chaplaincy" or similar and will recognise a number of "Chaplains" - usually either volunteers or paid a salary by their religious organisations. Much of the activity (and even the word Chaplaincy) comes from the Christian tradition. Typically universities have CofE, RC and two or three other protestant chaplains, all volunteers or externally funded, but granted access to university facilities, particularly to rooms. Non-Christan faiths including Judaism and Buddhism have been accomodated within the system. Once in a blue moon there are complaints about the activities of one group or another, and the university makes a decision. Their religious activities are open to all. If a protestant group wants to burn the pope in effigy for 5th November they will be informed that this cannot be done on university premises - and probably kicked out anyway.

What is frightening the life out of university executives is the Islamic students' religious meetings, which have been incorporated within the system. Non-moslems are excluded. Bluntly no-one knows what is happening - but there are rumours and they are worrying. And there isn't a solution. Banning moslem meetings while allowing all other faiths would be wrong. But if such groups are radicalised then it is wrong that they are meeting in university-owned rooms. The considered decision of university executives is to cross their fingers.

Then there is the problem of Islamic students demanding no classes on Thursday. UK unis mostly work Mon-Fri. Wed pm is usually linked to student sport, union, political activity. Most unis try to avoid classes late Friday. Mon 9am causes problems so may be avoided too! We've run out of hours in the week - the idea of not teaching on Thur is almost a non-starter - yet there are some courses with high numbers of Moslem students which have been forced to adopt this. The timetabling implications are major.

Then there's the problem of Moslem prayer times. The midday and afternoon prayers fall in the working day, and in winter so too do the sunset prayers. Some courses are working around this. It causes chaos. Universities have fixed time for the start and end of all classes so that timetables can work.

Then there's demands from Islamic students around public decency. The university should remove offending books from its library. The university should prohibit female students from sunbathing on university premises. All these issues now have to be considered, though so far not agreed to.

No other religion would get this level of accommodation.

Then we have the wonderful deal negotiated by Libya for Libyan students (almost all of whom are funded by their government). Their government pays fees not at the start but on succesful completion of courses. Fail a Libyan student - no fee. It beggars belief.

Practices such as this have come into being in the UK in the name of multiculturalism. IMO they show the policy has failed. Maybe we need real multiculturalism - not this sham.

 

[Drifterwood]

Our universities have a tradition of radicalism, Jase. Wasn't Jack Straw somewhere left of Marx when a student?

The issue or worry is that instead of violent marches, oh yes we had those the other month, you are keeping your fingers crossed that one of your muslim students doesn't end up on the six o'clock news as the latest suicide bomber. I imagine that other people are taking a closer interest.

 

[Jason]

Our universities have a tradition of radicalism, Jase. Wasn't Jack Straw somewhere left of Marx when a student?

The problem is not the Jack Straw school of political radicalism - universities know how to cope with this. Nor is it political violence - there is a functioning, legal framework. It is a "new" problem around radicalised Islam within UK universities. There does not seem to be a legal framework within which universities can act.

I'm not sure that "other people" (the police?) are doing anything constructive about their interst. In order to take part in a meeting it is necessary to be both moslem and a member of a particular university. The idea that in every meeting there is someone reporting to the authorities that the meeting is benign or radicalised is I think just not the case.

We need laws that work in the reality that exists.

 

[TomCat84]

Then there's demands from Islamic students around public decency. The university should remove offending books from its library. The university should prohibit female students from sunbathing on university premises. All these issues now have to be considered, though so far not agreed to.

No other religion would get this level of accommodation.

A group of students voicing their opinion about how things should be conducted? The HORRORS!

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Oh gee... followers of Islam requesting establishments to adhere to some of their religious holidays & practices, just like the Jewish community and so many other non-Christian religions. "Secret prayer meetings" that are exclusively Muslim, as if anyone of you non-practicers would even be interested in going anyhow if the doors were wide open for everyone to go. The proposal of removing books from libraries that they don't approve of... just like every other religiously based (or funded) group out there. Public decency requests, VERY similar to previous demands from other religions in the past. Run or your lives! It's Jihad!!! Sound the terrorism alarms!!!

No other religion would get this level of accommodation.

That's probably because none of them really asked. Or just like many other outlandish requests made in the name of other religions they were all rejected.

Jason, you have not stated a single thing that does not happen already in modern day already. We get it that you don't like Islam. But don't use these excuses as your determining factor.

 

[Jason]

A group of students voicing their opinion about how things should be conducted? The HORRORS!

Students can certainly voice views - but they can only be acted on if they are in keeping with the law of the land.

 

[Drifterwood]

I think that we need to win the "What did the Romans ever do for us?" argument.

At the moment, the answer to that is overshadowed by "kill a million people in Iraq, support despotic government and repress the Palestinians".

Surely we can do better than that.