Multiculturalism Failure or Political Profiling?

B_crackoff

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Jason, what you say is pretty disturbing - as far as I'm concerned, the legal framework is there.

It's shocking that some posters pour scorn on the exclusion of non-adherents, when you know they'd be up in arms about a homosexual being excluded from a fundamentalist Christian meeting!:smile:(letters sent, tweets tweeted, protests organized. I seem to remember that happening at a uni here - a gay man succesfully legally challenged his exclusion from election as chair of a Christian society.

I'd also point out again - for those that have missed the point - that these "closed" meetings are publically funded (facilities etc.) by everyone & not paid for by the group themselves - they are meant to be open to all - legally.

I've notice on this board that there seems to be no differentiation between racism lite, & radical fundamentalist racism, so why differentiate between active fundamentalist Muslims, & passive Muslims happy to let them have their way & use their resources?

It seems that support of certain views, or political movements, can be immediately boxed into a single issue reason of support, & even associate adherence classified as congenital racism - so why not apply those principles to Islamics, & call them all radical fundamentalists? It would be more consistent. ( though still just as laughable)

As if by magic, the normally apologist Channel 4 has a documentary next Monday @ 8PM Dispatches - "Lessons In Hate & Violence".

Dispatches goes undercover to investigate allegations that teachers regularly assault young children in some of the 2,000 Muslim schools in Britain run by Islamic organisations. The programme also follows up allegations that, behind closed doors, some Muslim secondary schools teach a message of hatred and intolerance.

Clips already seen include students beinh hit, & also taught that Hindus drink cows piss!

For those of us who've never been in a madrassa, this should be an eye opener.:wink:

Muslims have been in America since the 1600s....

? I never said they hadn't, but the number of Muslims in any Western country has been statistically insignificant pre 1950 (a point at which 90% of Americans were white, & overwhelmingly Christian).

No it really isn't, yes we have had and still do have many cultures existing however it's never been true multiculturalism.
I'd say several monocultures simply trying to put up with each other.

Ah - that is multiculturalism - several monocultures coexisting together.

I really feel the whole multiculturalism thing, sitting down eating my lunch at work.
In one corner you have a group of Polish keeping themselves to themselves, in the next corner you have the Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indians keeping themselves to themseleve, then in the other corner you'll have the Somalis, then you'll have the blacks on another table, whites on another.

It's uncomfortable, unfriendly. I do seriously hope multicultralism does work but to be totally honest I can't see it.

Bloody hell! Where do you work that it's like that? Sounds like Leicester, or somewhere else in the Midlands. I don't think you'd get Indian Hindus or Sikhs sitting next to Muslims!

That's the problem - they shouldn't house (unless of course they can pay for it themselves) large numbers of immigrants from the same country in the same place anymore. It doesn't promote any understanding of each other.

The higher up the career rung - people have absolutely no choice but to mix - & bloody right too.
 
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cruztbone

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:biggrin1:come to CALIFORNIA and see for yourself how we have embraced multiculturalism. i am proud to live in a county where more than 40 languages are spoken besides English, and Spanish, my second language, is almost as common as English. Our society is NOT perfect, but we are not at war with each other either.
 

TomCat84

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It's shocking that some posters pour scorn on the exclusion of non-adherents, when you know they'd be up in arms about a homosexual being excluded from a fundamentalist Christian meeting!:smile:(letters sent, tweets tweeted, protests organized. I seem to remember that happening at a uni here - a gay man succesfully legally challenged his exclusion from election as chair of a Christian society.

I'd also point out again - for those that have missed the point - that these "closed" meetings are publically funded (facilities etc.) by everyone & not paid for by the group themselves - they are meant to be open to all - legally.

I thought of those examples, however, but unless Im mistaken, American law is different from UK law. In this country, publicly funded institutions cant discriminate- it logically follows that they cant fund organizations that discriminate either. I have zero idea how UK law works in this regard.
 

TomCat84

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:biggrin1:come to CALIFORNIA and see for yourself how we have embraced multiculturalism. i am proud to live in a county where more than 40 languages are spoken besides English, and Spanish, my second language, is almost as common as English. Our society is NOT perfect, but we are not at war with each other either.

Many Europeans cannot bear to admit that in this regard, the USA may just hold the moral high ground...of course, California (and to some extent, New York, or at least the Boroughs of NYC) is quite a different animal than Wyoming or Alabama
 

D_Phallus P Phyllum

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What I get out of this is that he believes too much "live and let live" has led to extremism and the solution is to create a society where the Islamic people will want to mainstream into the culture.

It's been a bit more than 'live and let live' in the UK. It's been a case of actively promoting other cultures.

Government as funded social centres for ethnic minorities ahead of those for indegenous people. Banks have had to introduce schemes which allow muslims to take out mortages. Sharia law is even practiced in parts of the UK.

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts -Times Online

Multiculturalism has ended up created a fractured society, where there is little commonality between different groups, some of whome operate entirely disconnected from and hostile to the rest.

Someone I went to school with actually became a suicide bomber, and is now dead.

I think when multiculturalism was conceived and promoted, the idea was that different cultures would cooperate with mutual tolerance and respect; i don't think anyone thought that one of these cultures would end up being hostile to the other cultures, and to the very country they were living in, despite being encouraged to thrive there.
 

Hung_Patrick

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It's been a bit more than 'live and let live' in the UK. It's been a case of actively promoting other cultures.

Government as funded social centres for ethnic minorities ahead of those for indegenous people. Banks have had to introduce schemes which allow muslims to take out mortages. Sharia law is even practiced in parts of the UK.

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts -Times Online

Multiculturalism has ended up created a fractured society, where there is little commonality between different groups, some of whome operate entirely disconnected from and hostile to the rest.

Someone I went to school with actually became a suicide bomber, and is now dead.

I think when multiculturalism was conceived and promoted, the idea was that different cultures would cooperate with mutual tolerance and respect; i don't think anyone thought that one of these cultures would end up being hostile to the other cultures, and to the very country they were living in, despite being encouraged to thrive there.

Yeah, for me the main problem was the agenda of the last UK government. There's obviously been immigration to Britain for centuries, but it's only recently that the state has actively promoted certain groups at the expense of others and that was clearly an ideological mission to create millions of new Labour voters. Look at positive discrimination; why should a working class white male be discriminated against in favour of a public school-educated Asian if a firm's employment statistics don't add up? One may as well have a certain percentage of big-cocked males in every organisation. Freaky social engineering, and the legacy is a society fragmented into ill-defined 'labels' rather than one of harmony.
 

Jason

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Jason, what you say is pretty disturbing - as far as I'm concerned, the legal framework is there.QUOTE]

Maybe in theory. But ...

Look at the following two hypothetical UK cases:
1) A Christian fundamentalist group on campus says homosexuals are not welcome at their meetings (which take place in university-owned premises). They would certainly have breached university rules and may well have breached the law of the land. The university would have no problems excluding such a group.
2) A Moslem group on campus (possibly moderate, possibly not) says non-Moslems are not welcome at their meetings (which take place in university-owned premises). Additionally they say that women are not welcome, or must have their own, separate meeting. This reality has been accepted by most UK university executives. Doing otherwise may lead to a claim that the university is inciting racial hatred. Whether this would stand up in court is a moot point, but universities are adverse to the bad publicity of a court case which impacts on their recruitment both at home and abroad.

The UK universities with large numbers of moslem students (mainly the larger, big-city universities) have "secret" meetings of young moslems taking place several times a week - and often not in English. This is where the UK version of "multicultiuralism" has taken us. I'm all for multiculturalism, just not for this perversion of it.
 

MercyfulFate

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Oh gee... followers of Islam requesting establishments to adhere to some of their religious holidays & practices, just like the Jewish community and so many other non-Christian religions. "Secret prayer meetings" that are exclusively Muslim, as if anyone of you non-practicers would even be interested in going anyhow if the doors were wide open for everyone to go. The proposal of removing books from libraries that they don't approve of... just like every other religiously based (or funded) group out there. Public decency requests, VERY similar to previous demands from other religions in the past. Run or your lives! It's Jihad!!! Sound the terrorism alarms!!!



That's probably because none of them really asked. Or just like many other outlandish requests made in the name of other religions they were all rejected. :rolleyes:

Jason, you have not stated a single thing that does not happen already in modern day already. We get it that you don't like Islam. But don't use these excuses as your determining factor.

Poor argument is poor. Its wrong from any religious group, and I guarantee he'd agree. However since its only about muslims, you change his argument.

For shame.
 
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:biggrin1:come to CALIFORNIA and see for yourself how we have embraced multiculturalism. i am proud to live in a county where more than 40 languages are spoken besides English, and Spanish, my second language, is almost as common as English. Our society is NOT perfect, but we are not at war with each other either.

Actually, the U.S.A. is called a "melting pot" where it is expected that new immigrants will integrate into the larger society. While they are not forced to do so, they receive no government support to retain their own cultural identity within the U.S. Canada is officially a multicultural country meaning that the gov't encourages and provides funding for newcomers to retain their cultural heritage/identity even once they have become Canadian citizens. Canada hasn't had anywhere near the racial issues that the U.S. has had, but I personally don't support the concept of multiculturalism. I feel that it is a waste of tax dollars that could be used elsewhere. I do not think it is productive for any country to actively encourage it's citizenry to be different from each other. Also, IMO, it just doesn't work. While new immigrants try desperately to hold on to their cultural heritage/identity in Canada, their first generation Canadian offspring identify themselves as Canadian and nothing else. This causes many problems within the family as the parents are hanging onto and forcing a culture on their children that the children cannot relate to at all. As a first generation Canadian who has worked with immigrants for over 13 years, I can tell you that this is very much the case. It is not uncommon at all for newcomers to get upset when their children refuse to embrace something that is completely foreign to them. Their offspring often feel that they are being pulled in two different directions. This is compounded when the old culture is radically different from Canadian culture.
 
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B_crackoff

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I presume then Jase, that you ban any Catholic associations because they deny equal job opportunities for women?

A specious argument & untrue DW. You might equally say that it denies equal opportunities for men! Catholic associations welcome anyone.

However, we all know how secular & pro science you are...

...So how about banning scientific associations, because science denies equal opportunity for women - 3 or 4 female Noble Laureates out of 350+ in the sciences shows equally abject discrimination :wink:

...or what about banning Law Societies, because in contested custody cases, residency is granted to women in 90-95% of cases, even where the man was the primary childcare provider?

It seems somehow that atheists miss the point about the separation of Church & State. It's a 2 way street. Does anyone want religious groups campaigning, & lobbying for particular parties, & commenting to their bretheren on each & every state edict?

I support the right of any group to discuss whatever they want, & define their own membership criteria, in a purely social setting.

But not when those excluded are having to finance it!
 

Drifterwood

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You miss the point that if they wish to be separate from the state then when they wish to use the state, they should do so under the state's laws.

Your counter examples are meaningless because the opportunity is not specifically barred.

Try again.

I think you'll find that you will end up arguing the double standard of our intolerance being OK because that is our culture. Immigrant intolerance is not OK when laid upon the existing culture.

That is why it is a cultural prejudice. Just be honest and admit it. Most people in the world are like this.
 
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dude_007

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I'm in California, too, and while it is multicultural, there is definite evidence of internal colonialism. Racism is still alive and quietly thriving, even in Californi
 

rob_just_rob

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Back when I was pre-law, I wrote a paper positing that the Nazi takeover of Weimar Germany and their (effective) abolition of parliamentary procedure was entirely legal per the Weimar constitution. In a nutshell, the Weimar political system didn't bar political parties whose expressed goal was to abolish the political system, and didn't contain (effective) prohibitions against legislation that would abolish the Reichstag.

Not to wander into Godwinland, but the situation outlined by the OP seems somewhat analogous. Our multicultural systems insist on tolerance of all cultures, including cultures which have no tolerance for other cultures.

A dangerous paradox.
 

eurotop40

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Back when I was pre-law, I wrote a paper positing that the Nazi takeover of Weimar Germany and their (effective) abolition of parliamentary procedure was entirely legal per the Weimar constitution. In a nutshell, the Weimar political system didn't bar political parties whose expressed goal was to abolish the political system, and didn't contain (effective) prohibitions against legislation that would abolish the Reichstag.

Not to wander into Godwinland, but the situation outlined by the OP seems somewhat analogous. Our multicultural systems insist on tolerance of all cultures, including cultures which have no tolerance for other cultures.

A dangerous paradox.

You couldn't have explained it better...
 

B_VinylBoy

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If I need to explain it to you, you may need help of the mental variety.

No dear... I would much rather you go in heavy detail about what you think I did in this thread that is so "shameful". That way when I thoroughly refute whatever nonsense you have stewing in your mind, there will be no ifs, ands or buts about where your opinions of me or anything I said belong.

So please, sweetie, let it all out. REALLY... go for it! And remember, there's 10,000 ASCII letters a post. Keep that in mind because you're gonna need them. :rolleyes:
 

MercyfulFate

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No dear... I would much rather you go in heavy detail about what you think I did in this thread that is so "shameful". That way when I thoroughly refute whatever nonsense you have stewing in your mind, there will be no ifs, ands or buts about where your opinions of me or anything I said belong.

So please, sweetie, let it all out. REALLY... go for it! And remember, there's 10,000 ASCII letters a post. Keep that in mind because you're gonna need them. :rolleyes:

I already explained it. Do you really need things told to you multiple times "dear"? I mean, come on.