Murtha's statements

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by madame_zora, Nov 19, 2005.

  1. madame_zora

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    Well, what do you think?

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/murtha.iraq.ap/


    In another articale that I can no longer find, he made some comments about how it's funny that men who have not served time but rather took advantage of deferments are so eager to send others to war. Let's see how quickly he gets branded as a "left wing nutjob" by bushco, after all, it's really all they've got.
     
  2. Sabln7

    Sabln7 New Member

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    I agree. The right is already trying to paint him as less than a hero or even a war vet....just like they did with Kerry. How can two men who refused to serve their country in Vietnam get away with spouting venom at two who did? It amazes me.
     
  3. Lex

    Lex
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    Heaven forbid someone with intimate, firsthand war experience try to tell those who have no such experience how to run their wars. Good for him.
     
  4. madame_zora

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    This, I think is the crux of the matter:


    "It is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering, the future of our country is at risk. We cannot continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf region," Murtha said.


    We went into this war based on what we now know was faulty information, regardless of who was responsible or why. The American people never signed on for a war of indefinite length and purpose, so the time has come to re-evaluate what IS rather than what we thought it would be.

    Only a moron would recommend staying such a course without looking at the big picture, the future and what the likely results would be either way for our country as well as theirs. The time has come to stop sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending everything is okay. Clearly, this is a man who has earned the right to give his well imformed opinion on such an issue, why then would bush, who has never served a day, have the right to attempt to discredit him?

    If this war was initiated truly as a mistake on the part of the administration rather than intentional deception, then they owe us an apology and a quick withdrawal.
     
  5. JustAsking

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    Yea verily, M. Zora. I think we are ignoring history here. Iraq is an artificial country made up of a handful of cultures or religious groups who hate each other. We have seen time and time again that if you take the lid off of a situation like that you get civil war. Isn't the term called "Balkanization"? We saw it when Russia pulled out of Eastern Europe and its still going on in Africa. This is why G.H.W Bush didn't go any farther than liberating Kuwait. He said it would be folly to drive on into Bagdad without an "exit strategy". And here we are with no exit strategy. Uh duh.

    Geo. H. W. Bush's National Security Advisor wisely advised his boss to not drive on to Bagdad after liberating Kuwait during Desert Storm. In an article in The New Yorker, Oct 23, 2005:

    Next is the fact that our presence there is creating a situation where insurgents are multiplying like rabbits. Whenever a nation is invaded, even the most passive people become energized and sign up to defend their culture. In this case the nation is Islamic Fundamentalism, but the effect is the same. Money and guns suddenly appear and an endless line of young passionate zealots are ready to use them. Probably .00001% of the insurgents would have ever become terrorists. They were pumping gas or whatever before we gave them a reason to become suicide bombers.

    So, regardless of our motives, and our attempts to stabilize the Middle East with a democratic Iraq, what we have on our hands is a hundreds year old civil war within Iraq, and an ocean of insurgents overrunning the levys. This is a Cat 5 disaster.

    My vote is to let them federalize themselves into three culturally and religiously distinct regions asap and get out of there. It's not a very pretty idea, but it might be the least of all evils if you count failure or Phyrric (sic) victory as the alternatives.

    JustAsking
     
  6. JustAsking

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    You find the most interesting stuff when Googling around. Here are some gems from, of all places, barbarastreisand.com.

    And this:

    JustAsking
     
  7. madame_zora

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    JustAsking, I won't ask what you were doing on barbarastreisand.com, it's probably personal ;) , but those were some gems.

    I miss the days of plain talk being accpetable. Anymore if you say something or someone is stupid, you get a lot of crap about it, but sometimes it's just telling the truth. So gee, Texas oil barons have always been insensitive to the needs of the masses, who knew?
     
  8. SurferGirlCA

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    Ohhhh, MZ, I have some more of those my brother (former Marine) sent me. Below are some comments directed at Clinton re: Kosovo.

    By the way, any LPSG members in Ohio reading this, who is that Ohio Rep. who was practically shouted off the floor of the House during the Murtha debate when she "passed on a message" to Murtha from a supposed constituent of hers which included the phrase "cowards cut and run"? She had a lovely bow in her hair, but I'm interested in some perspective on her.


    "If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
    - Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush

    "President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
    - Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

    "No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it."
    - Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

    "You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo."
    - Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99
     
  9. BobLeeSwagger

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    Seems unlikely that the Bush braintrust would start listening to someone outside their circle now, especially a Democrat. I'm not sure there's a person on earth that could convince them that they're fuck-ups.
     
  10. madame_zora

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    Surfergirl, it's always good to hear from you, thanks for the smiles! It almost seems unfair to pick on this administration, kinda like making fun of retarded people, isn't it?

    Aloofman, I'm sure there's not a PERSON on earth he'd listen to, but I wonder if he'll try to recapture some of the 65% of the Americans polled who disapprove of his job performance?


    http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...2bx6maguMY_20061116.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
     
  11. JustAsking

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    Haha, I can't say I didn't deserve that. No, I don't have a streisand fetish, although when I was much younger I had a crush on her in the movie What's Up Doc. That movie was just plain funny and she was adorable in it. The only other time I didn't feel like shoving a pie in her face was when she self-parodied her parody by appearing on Mike Meyers "Coffee Talk" show on SNL.

    Be we digress.

    Yes who says that just because something is a strongly held ideology, it can't also just be stupid? We should fund MoveOn.org to just run commercials with footage of Bush saying "Bring It On." as if all this is some kind of a Clint Eastwood movie. (Actually, Clint Eastwood displays more awareness of the complexities of moral situations than Bush seems to.)

    JustAsking
     
  12. JustAsking

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    M. Zoram, did you ever notice that there is a tendency for Republican Adminstrations to take on a kind of siege mentality when they start to have popularity problems. As the going gets tough, they surround themselves with an ever smaller circle of like-minded paranoids hoping to insulate themselves from the hostile reality.

    Hey, that WSJ article is interesting in that it shows the Dems are suffering from the reverse halo effect where they seem to be regarded as "guilty by association." What are the odds that someone like McCain would run as an independent? In fact, I think what we need in the next election is a well funded professional gadfly like Ross Pero. I didn't vote for him, but I think he performed a valuable function in forcing the other candidates back to the issues that mattered.

    JustAsking
     
  13. SurferGirlCA

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    Si, si, senorita. There sure doesn't seem to be much of a learning curve involved here, maybe because no one in this group ever seems to be held accountable for the f*ck-ups. Of course, if you have a contrarian point of view, you apparently are shown the door PDQ, so I guess that helps explain why no one wants to stand apart from the others. I just wonder how much of that attitude is driven by Bush's notion that God wants him in the job, therefore his (Bush's) decisions are touched by the divine hand aka not to be questioned. To be honest, that's what frightens me most about this administration.

     
  14. SpeedoGuy

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    It should be clear to all by now: You're either with the GOP, or you're with the terrorists.
     
  15. Dr. Dilznick

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    Bill Clinton says U.S. must stay in Iraq

    VALHALLA — Former President Clinton said yesterday that the United States should wait until after mid-December parliamentary elections in Iraq to decide whether to set a timetable for troop withdrawal.

    Clinton offered a lengthy assessment of the Iraq war as part of a wide-ranging talk at Westchester Community College for The President's Forum, a school fundraiser. It marked a rare local appearance by the former president, a Chappaqua resident.

    Clinton, a Democrat who left office at the start of 2001, said he had personally never seen any intelligence linking Iraq to al-Qaida, and "no one I knew believed that was the case." But that doesn't mean President Bush, a Republican, lied or deliberately misled the country about the reasons for going to war, Clinton said. Bush probably believed the information he was relying on was right, Clinton said.

    Now, Clinton said, what is good policy for both countries is the question. Clinton suggested that the recent vote on an Iraqi constitution went well, and the next test will be whether the once-dominant Sunni Arabs participate in the Dec. 15 elections.

    If they do, he said, "this enterprise could still work," and "we could look at having a fairly substantial drawdown (of troops) next year." If the United States pulled out now, he said, "Sunni Iraq would become the very terrorist hotbed they were accused of being before."

    Clinton also reacted to recent reports that the Bush administration has stashed some terrorist suspects in secret prisons abroad. He said his administration honored "rendition" treaties that involved sending prisoners to other countries, but "as far as I know, we had no place we could send someone so they could be tortured there but not here."

    "I don't approve of that," he said.

    At the same time, Clinton said, there were things done on his watch in the name of fighting terrorism "that I'm not entirely comfortable with." He cited the approval of a law that allows terror suspects to be held indefinitely without being charged if an indictment would reveal secret intelligence.

    "Past a certain point, we have to stop that," he said.

    Clinton offered praise for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who last week secured an agreement from Israel to ease restrictions on Palestinians crossing in and out of the Gaza Strip. The prospects for peace in that region are the best in five years, he said.

    "I hope she'll do more of it," he said of Rice's diplomatic efforts. "She's a smart, gifted woman, and I'd like to see her over there juicing it up more."

    Back to discussing the United States, Clinton offered a three-part platform for Democrats in 2006: Focus on national energy policy, including developing new jobs in energy conservation and clean energy; push an "aggressive health-care plan" that reconfigures the current Medicare prescription benefit; and promote "universal access to higher education."

    In politics, Clinton said the past 25 years has seen a climate of "intensely negative personal attacks and partisanship, and I don't think it's particularly good for the country."

    The former president said the success of politicians who ran on their records, including Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg in New York and Democratic Governor-elect Jon Corzine in New Jersey, suggested the tide could be turning — but it would be up to voters to stop rewarding nasty campaigns.

    Clinton also had criticism for the influence of religious conservatives on national politics, saying, "I think there's no question that they've made an alliance with the political right and contributed to this politics of personal destruction.

    "Anytime somebody says they're representing a religious force in politics and if you don't agree with them there's something wrong with your values, you should have a question," Clinton said.

    Later he added, "I don't think they've done much good for us. And most people who claim to be righteous are really looking for more power in politics, that's what I think."

    Clinton said current Bush Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito "seems to be a completely admirable person," but he hadn't evaluated him closely. In picking nominees, Clinton said, "There's a difference between having a philosophy and an ideology. You want someone who is more or less able to have a philosophical approach and have it tempered by the facts that come before him or her."

    The event, which drew 700 people to the school's physical education building, was moderated by Lester Crystal, executive producer of "The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer" and a member of the community college foundation's board. It was expected to bring in $125,000 for scholarships and faculty support.

    Some guests paid $500 to see Clinton at a private reception beforehand, but all audience members could mingle with him after the talk; he lingered for more than an hour



    http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051121/NEWS02/511210307/1020/NEWS04
     
  16. JustAsking

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    Regarding the Clintion speech: I heard that after Nixon was out of office he used to do the same thing. Since he had nothing to lose, he would go to parties full of politicians and dignitaries and spout the most astoundingly insightful analyses of problems in foriegn affairs and propose practical and far reaching solutions. Noone paid any attention to him but he did it anyway.

    So here are these two brilliant but tragically flawed individuals somehow being more focused and incisive after they are out of power rather than during it.

    Is this a great country or what!?

    JustAsking
     
  17. SurferGirlCA

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    Yes, we've defintely gone through the looking glass when the GOP spin-meisters are using Bill Clinton as a POSITIVE reference point for their argument. :p
     
  18. madame_zora

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    JustAsking, I am in agreement with you on both Clinton and Nixon, I thought I was alone in seeing him as an untapped resource. While he had more serious emotional problems than Clinton, I thought he contributed in some important ways in foriegn relations, with Kissinger. Clinton's major flaw was just that he couldn't keep his pants up, and who really gives a fuck about that? His approval rating with the American people was still in the middle sixties even during the Monica trials, so not very many of US really gave a damn, just the fundies and people trying to sell newspapers.

    Clinton IS brilliant, so there's really just no other way for him to talk. I think Nixon worked hard at what comes very easily to Clinton. We forfeited a lot by using his time in office to try to prosecute him for irrelevant misdemeanors rather than use his brillant mind for the well-being of the country. It may be a long time before we have such an opportunity again, I hope we don't blow it again if we do. Look at how the man is spending his time post White House, he's out saving the world, just like he always wanted to do. My hat's off to him for using his notariety to try to do some good, most people would do far less. [Bush sr. has been about nothing but increasing his personal wealth since he left office, until Clinton approached him about the bipartisan efforts of late}
     
  19. jay_too

    jay_too New Member

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    You got that right.
     
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