Muslims and sex

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

Hmm... Somehow I knew that I spoke too soon.

Yes, but you still have a hot ass. :09:

that was going to be my question to the many posters on this thread that are US-located. being a Muslim in a or Middle Eastern country vs the US or Oz... has to be a huge difference. i'd bet that "western" Muslims are more tolerant of homosexaulity, while although it varies, can be quite harsh in the other hemisphere.

My post and the book I recommended address non-Western Muslims.

Were the tenets in the Koran (and the Bible) followed as delivered and understood, Islam would be a religion of peace.

However, like Christianity, local regions evolve their own beliefs, just the same way Bible thumping Christians think its okay to hate Jews and Catholics.

I'd put it down to ignorance on all sides. The most obvious of terrorists only know about the Koran, and haven't read it.

A lot of people know who Jesus was, but don't know a thing about where their religion came from.

So the sexuality expressed by people also comes from their culture, and it can get smarmy all over.

The topic is sex, not any other social condition which could derail the discussion. However, the issue is interpretation. How one interprets any words can vary greatly from group to group. Or, in other words, I have never heard of a Sufi suicide bomber...

Also, the above statement about ignorance of the Koran is not true. Someone that is an Islamist, or radical, which does not automatically mean terrorist, would know the Koran backwards and forwards. More importantly, they would be able to recite it from memory as it was originally handed down by the prophet Muhammad--who was illiterate (this is known as a miracle, btw). There's a word for the people that reach that point, but I cannot recall it.

 

[MarkLondon]

Does anyone know the islamic definition of a homosexual man? I have a sneaking suspicion it only applies to an anally receptive man, but I'm not at all sure of that point.

 

[kundalinikat]

I remember reading some fascinating articles about gay men in Iran and the gender apartheid, basically that in the major cities it is easier to have a closeted and commitment-free social and sexual life because of the gender separation, than it is to try to pass as a heterosexual man by dating a woman. Unfortunately the article did not cover gay women at all. But it seemed like there is this whole hidden world of gay male house parties and private events and dating, though actual bars and clubs are rare or hidden. I can only assume there is something similar for the women there. The subculture there (relatively) thrives because it is easy to join events, there is no reason to engage the omnipresent gender division.

 

[fivesalive]

i just watched bill maher's religulous and he interviews a couple of gay Muslims in amsterdam. he alludes to something along the lines of homosexuality per se being tolerated within the Koran but the actual act of sodomy being frowned upon... but it was fleeting and poorly explained. Maybe someone here knows better.

I just got back to the States after 3 weeks of travel in the Middle East and the rumor there is that more religious Muslim cities have barely any crime (the stories being you could leave your luggage on the street all day and no one would take it), which a friend studying Arabic and Islam in Cairo for 4 months verified... but I don't know where the high moral stance ends as he also told me that Cairo is a nightmare for western women. As in, his german female friend visited and the cab driver on the way from the airport whipped it out and was jerking it while driving and glancing at her on the highway. So maybe they won't steal your luggage, but would jerk off on it. who knows.

 

[D_Toren_Adopants]

whatever floats your boat

 

[2322]

Islam is a great deal like Christianity in structure. There are two main sects, the Shi'a and the Sunni. In Christianity you might liken this to Protestantism and Catholic/Orthodox. Within these two main groups are various sub-groups each with a focus on particular ideologies. Some are more conservative than others, many are regional and tailored to particular cultures. What Christianity has that Islam does not, is the concept of clergy. There is no consecrated clergy within Islam. Anyone within Islam may become an imam or mullah if one finds followers. There is no ordination. If you speak well, know the Koran and hadith, then one may become an imam or mullah. Some Christian sects operate this way as well. The Quakers and some of the fundamentalist congregationalist churches follow this rule, but it's relatively rare.

Likewise the breadth of belief is genuinely vast. There are ultra-conservative Catholics just as there are ultra-liberal Unitarians. Islam is the same. Some Islamic sects are what we would call exceedingly liberal, such as most of the Sufis, while others, particularly the aforementioned Wahabbis, are exceedingly conservative. The situation is such that Sufism is banned in many of the places where conservative Islam is the norm.

It's unfair to paint Islam as a monolithic faith any more than it is to say all Christians are monolithic. Judaism, though much smaller in the number of adherents, is equally broad. Some Jews are ultra Orthodox, some are so liberal, as many Sephardi are, that they don't even circumcise. Same goes for Buddhism or Hinduism.

Islam is a extremely difficult in its history and complexity. Yes Islam is seen as the most virulently anti-homosexual major religion in the world today yet no other religion also has such a vast body of poetry praising homosexual love. There are wild dichotomies in Islamic philosophy and religious law, perhaps even moreso than within Christianity and this despite the fact that the laws of Islam were expressly written by Mohammed himself. You'd think nothing could be clearer, but you'd be wrong. For every law, there's an interpretation.

 

[Moez???]

Let me go a bit more in detail about specific things.

Sunni and Shia, (however you want to spell them) are the 2 major sects, and the differences are extremely minor. Almost political differences. the Shia believe that Muhammad's family should have be the Caliphs to lead Muslims after his death, and Sunni's believe it was Muhammads companions. The real split happened after the death of Ali, who, to the Sunni's, was the 4th Caliph, and the Shia's, the first Caliph. At that point, there was a massacre of a group who followed Muhammad's grandson, and the split was solidified.

Over time, the split become more extreme, Shias saying that Muhammads family was divine and infaliable (untrue) and Sunnis saying they were corrupt and evil (also untrue).

anyway, the 3rd Caliph outlawed the "temporary" marriage, but Muhammad allowed it, so even though I don't consider myself any sect, I just call myself Muslim, I try to follow what Muhammad said, instead of the Caliphs or Imam's after.

In terms of homosexuality, it is considered a sin in Islam, but not in the way some people think. Firstly, to punish someone for commiting an act of homosexuality, you need 5 witnesses of the act, which is impossible. It's a loophole to appease those that felt it should be outlawed during the time of Muhammad, and is a way to prevent witch hunts.

Also, homosexual feelings in Islam is never considered a sin. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that feel attracted to someone of the same gender is a sin. One of Muhammad's companions openly wrote about how he had to leave a public bath because the underaged boys in the area where getting him aroused. As long as someone doesn't act on those impulses, it's not considered a sin.

It seems to me that homosexuality is a burden some people just have to carry (regardless of your religious beliefs, you have to admit, it's easier being straight than gay in regards to how society views you). But Islam rewards those who have more burdens than others, and succeed in not succumbing. I don't want to compare the 2, but it's like in Islam, someone born handicap will be rewarded in heaven, the same would go for a homosexual who restrains from his/her temptations. again, final things are all decided by God, so nothing is set in stone in that sense.

and in dealing with Sufism, I don't know a lot about it, so I can't say.

and Whabbism is probably the worst thign to come to the Muslim world in history, 2nd only to the nation of Saudi Arabia.