My close friend and I are not out... to each other?

[gsisaac]

Here's some background information about my friend and me:

Me:
Bi, basically not out to anyone at all, and leaning toward the masculine side. I'm not homophobic to the public eye, and many of my college friends know me as being a gay magnet with a good gaydar. When asked about my sexuality (it happens occasionally), I just casually say that I'm straight without being or seeming offended. People believe me. I have friends who identify as gay/lesbian/bi/whatever ("queer"? I don't know all the terminology), and my extended groups of college friends are generally pretty open about people of various sexual orientations. I've had girlfriends, but never a boyfriend, per se (though I've had a couple FWB situations that were not too bad). I place a high value on friendships.

My friend:
We've just been friends since the beginning of this school year. He's Japanese and can speak English (I'm proficient enough in Japanese that we can switch between the two regularly). He claims to be straight, but appears to many people to be gay (etc.) based on his mannerisms and ways of speaking, among other things. I also believe that he is not straight, and I think he knows for the most part that I don't "mind" my friends' sexualities. (Of course I "care" about the issue because it's interesting to me, but I don't seek out friends of one sexual orientation over another.)
Anyway, he is not the best-looking guy, but there is a cuteness to him that I really enjoy. We have become close friends. He's stayed at my apartment multiple times (even in my bed) when it was too late for him to get the bus back to his host family's house (far from our school), though nothing sexually has actually happened. (The fact that he's stayed over is known by many of our friends, and it is assumed by them that nothing "happened".)

As you can tell, I'm interested in my friend. Like I mentioned, he's not necessarily the best-looking guy, but something about him is cute. His personality is what does a lot of it for me... Our chemistry is great: he has a more submissive personality, mine being more dominant or masculine. There is a good amount of banter that goes on between us, both in front of our friends and in private. We trust each other and often ask each other for advice.

I haven't made any moves, per se, but I've wanted to for a while. I occasionally sense something from him toward me, but I never know what to do with it. I think he is very shy about some of his true feelings. A few days ago, he suggested that we go to see a movie and go ice skating together at the mall (presumably just the two of us -- that is, without our other friends tagging along). I don't know if he has feelings for me exactly like I do for him, though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were so, and I often entertain the idea.

I really want something more between us. We are already close, and I feel like our relationship has a lot of unlocked potential. Assuming that each of us has feelings for the other, I don't want to do something or bring it up in a way that will harm our relationship. I actually want to go further with it, but I wouldn't want to somehow fail and make our friendship awkward.

Does anyone here have a similar experience or any words of wisdom for me? If you'd like more clarification on my situation, just ask, and can provide it.

 

[Q Vee]

It sounds like an exciting time in your life and one that could be an important part of your life experiences.

SHORT ANSWER: Take it slow and let things develop naturally (or not). Don't force it, let nature take its course.

LONG ANSWER: The most important thing to keep in mind - in my opinion - is that should the relationship become sexually intimate, the dynamic will never be the same and there is no guarantee what direction it will take afterwards. For instance you guys may become full-on lovers; or Friends With Benefits; or (on the downside, usually after guilt feelings and recriminations) estranged friends with hurt feelings. Is staying close friends more or less important than pursuing an intimate relationship. Those are simply examples/considerations and not rigid standards or rules.

I do not mean to rain on your parade; I am only suggesting there is no easy answer to your situation and it deserves careful consideration before you proceed. Do you know how far your would like this to go? Serious vs. casual vs. open vs. monogamous. And then there is how your friend feels?

I will admit to sometimes over-thinking things myself. I'm rarely the "just go for it" guy. What ever you decide, I wish you well and that you have no regrets.

 

[XSILVER]

I agree with Q_Vee. but my personal opinion would be if your feeling this way about him and have developed feelings for him, the chances are that he has done the same for you. No straight man shares a bed with another man (dont all jump on me for this one because its not how im making it out to sound... just a generalized point... lol). How to go about letting him know that your Bi.... that all has to do with your comfort level. Totally a fuun and exciting time in your life. I love the very beginings of a relationship where my BF hates them for the same reason that i love them...LOL Have fun, and keep cool about it.

 

[D_Chesty_Pecjiggle]

Frankly, there is nothing unique about this situation. It has nothing to do with gay/straight/bi.

My blunt advice: Grow a pair and make a move.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I wish someone would have told me that at 18. I'd have gotten a lot more action.

 

[blooeyz]

Don't forget there are significant cultural differences

I would open up to him about going both ways though

 

[gsisaac]

To the people who have responded so far, thank you for your input.

Like blooeyz said, "don't forget there are significant cultural differences."
Also, I should add, I'm not just looking for sex. I've fantasized about it some, of course, but it's not the most important thing to me in this situation. Otherwise I might've already made a move (as I've had enough chances to make moves and potentially ruin a friendship).

Blooeyz, can you explain what you mean about me opening up to my friend about "going both ways"? Do you mean I should talk to him and tell him that I like him but offer that I want to remain in a good friendship with him whether or not we move forward? I feel like I might've misunderstood exactly what you meant, but I'm interested in what you might be suggesting.

Q_Vee, you mentioned that I should consider what kind of situation or relationship I am looking for. If I was to further my relationship with my friend, I would want it to be monogamous, somewhere between serious and casual, and definitely not just FWB. As we are emotionally close as friends now, I don't want to just force sex into the relationship, as I think that if done carelessly, it could be detrimental to our friendship that we've built up to so far. And, of course, where it could go is also determined by what my friend wants.

XSILVER, I liked your part about straight men not sleeping with other men. lol But again, there are some cultural factors (plus the fact that I have a king-size bed at my apartment near campus, which many of my friends have suggested is good for when friends need to stay over, so...). :}

 

[monel]

Have you tried touching him? I am certainly not in my element here, but I know that a sure way to know if a woman is interested is if I casually and tenderly touch her while in conversation and she doesn't resist. I don't mean sexual touching. Touch her forearm, hand, etc. while talking. Similarly if a woman is interested in me I find that she will often subtlety touch me in non sexual ways but that send a message.

 

[gsisaac]

Have you tried touching him? I am certainly not in my element here, but I know that a sure way to know if a woman is interested is if I casually and tenderly touch her while in conversation and she doesn't resist.

monel, thanks for your input! Ironically, less than ten minutes prior to reading your message now, I did just that. Haha
Yeah, I do employ the subtle touching technique. I might've grown to doing that around a lot of my friends almost by habit, but I definitely do it intentionally around this guy. He sometimes does it to me as well. And while I said before that nothing sexual happened when he slept in my bed, I did find myself very close to him, or with like our knees touching, simple things like that. (I sound like a middle schooler with limited experience in relationships...)

I suppose that perhaps when I touch this particular friend, it may be interpreted as solely casual and conversational. That is to say, because I do it often and because I use touching like that when I joke with friends in general, I almost wonder if he wouldn't recognize it for what it is... Still, I've been doing it, and will continue to do so. I like when he does it to me, so maybe he likes it when I do it to him.

 

[BigInBellevue]

I did a lot of touching but my friend didn't; however, he never complained. But then he got the idea that I might like him sexually or romantically. He interrogated me caustically and told me that was the end of our five-year friendship. Funny thing is that I never did anything sexual; I just was expressing that I liked him. So approach with caution.

 

[monel]

monel, thanks for your input! Ironically, less than ten minutes prior to reading your message now, I did just that. Haha
Yeah, I do employ the subtle touching technique. I might've grown to doing that around a lot of my friends almost by habit, but I definitely do it intentionally around this guy. He sometimes does it to me as well. And while I said before that nothing sexual happened when he slept in my bed, I did find myself very close to him, or with like our knees touching, simple things like that. (I sound like a middle schooler with limited experience in relationships...)

I suppose that perhaps when I touch this particular friend, it may be interpreted as solely casual and conversational. That is to say, because I do it often and because I use touching like that when I joke with friends in general, I almost wonder if he wouldn't recognize it for what it is... Still, I've been doing it, and will continue to do so. I like when he does it to me, so maybe he likes it when I do it to him.

This, I think is a pretty good sign. Like the discovery of most things in life, careful, incremental progression is key. You need to cautiously "up the ante" get closer to him when you are speaking in private conversation. When you touch his arm, hand, etc. hold it a little longer than usual. If he doesn't back away or move, than he is likely open to becoming closer. You'll eventually know if he is willing to take the next step. And if you're really lucky he'll get the message and take it first. Good luck.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

This, I think is a pretty good sign. Like the discovery of most things in life, careful, incremental progression is key. You need to cautiously "up the ante" get closer to him when you are speaking in private conversation. When you touch his arm, hand, etc. hold it a little longer than usual. If he doesn't back away or move, than he is likely open to becoming closer. You'll eventually know if he is willing to take the next step. And if you're really lucky he'll get the message and take it first. Good luck.

I personally don't really like this approach. In fact I don't like any approach at all! When guys try to seduce girls they do the same thing. It's playing games in that you attempt to see what you can get away with. To me it's not healthy and respectful of the other person. Just be yourself and be aware that your friend has feelings like you do. Put yourself in his place and think how you would like to be treated. Treat him the same way.

 

[badger2395]

I personally don't really like this approach. In fact I don't like any approach at all! When guys try to seduce girls they do the same thing. It's playing games in that you attempt to see what you can get away with. To me it's not healthy and respectful of the other person. Just be yourself and be aware that your friend has feelings like you do. Put yourself in his place and think how you would like to be treated. Treat him the same way.

Pretty much what Jon said here. Don't fool around; treat him with the same clarity that you would like in return.

 

[dewit]

Blooeyz, can you explain what you mean about me opening up to my friend about "going both ways"? Do you mean I should talk to him and tell him that I like him but offer that I want to remain in a good friendship with him whether or not we move forward? I feel like I might've misunderstood exactly what you meant, but I'm interested in what you might be suggesting.

I don't want to put words in someone's mouth, but I think what he means is that you should open up to your friend about being bi and see where that conversation goes. Since you are such close friends, you could talk about yourself openly in that way and see where it leads. If he is not into it, you may lose sleepovers, but he should still be your friend if he is that close to you already and has integrity.

 

[monel]

I personally don't really like this approach. In fact I don't like any approach at all! When guys try to seduce girls they do the same thing. It's playing games in that you attempt to see what you can get away with. To me it's not healthy and respectful of the other person. Just be yourself and be aware that your friend has feelings like you do. Put yourself in his place and think how you would like to be treated. Treat him the same way.

I understand what you are saying but I don't think this is "an approach" or a seduction. There is often a time in a relationship when one needs to determine whether the other party might be interested in something more and asking directly holds too much risk. I don't see anything disrespectful in trying to assess the other's feelings. I am not suggesting that the OP trick the guy into bed only a way to guage his interest in developing the relationship further.

 

[743878]

Don't forget there are significant cultural differences

I would open up to him about going both ways though

yup, just open up to him.

 

[gsisaac]

I have to be honest, things have already progressed since my last post, and I didn't need to force anything...

In response to Hung_Jon and badger2395:
I understand what you guys are talking about, that you think it's better that I don't go about this situation with an "approach"... I think you're totally right that I should respect the other person (this friend of mine). But at the same time, I feel that I should be cautious and not quite so direct or fast at this point... yet. What I said about using touch with my friend wasn't that I'm trying to "get away" with anything; I think person-to-person contact can be used to express a feeling. Forgive me if that's looking into it too much, but I'm hoping that my intentions are not misunderstood. Hung_Jon, you said that guys use touching to seduce girls, but... In this case, I'm not trying to "seduce" my friend. I honestly just want him to know that I have feelings for him, and I don't believe that it has to be said explicitly. Additionally, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not just looking to sleep with my friend (sexually, that is... Of course I've slept literally with my friend on multiple accounts... lol). Please understand that I have true feelings for him. I can't understand how that would be a "game", and I don't view it as a bad thing either. Perhaps I miscommunicated my intentions earlier. Please continue reading this post, and I think you'll have a better understanding of my thought process (and my situation)...

dewit, thank you for lending your advice...
I have thought about telling my friend directly about my interest in him. Of course, I'm hoping and (since just a couple hours ago... [READ ON!]) even expecting that it'll come to the point where I come out with it. Like some of the other posters mentioned above, I should be clear to my friend, as he should also be able to understand my intentions.

BREAKING NEWS!
Just a short while ago, I went with a friend to McDonald's on campus and we bumped into the friend who I have feelings for. The three of us are mutual friends, so the first friend who I was already with invited my guy of interest to sit with us. We sat a booth with the two of them next to each other, and I across from them adjacent to my "guy". After he sat down with us, his foot touched my leg, but I didn't move it. I openly teased him (...kind of usual in some of my friendships), and he responded kind of positively. While the three of us were talking, he started tapping my leg with his foot. I could barely look at him when he did it, though -- I was so nervous... or something. Can I say "giddy"? But I did quickly glance at him, and I didn't move my leg away, so I was letting him do it, which I think he noticed... He left before my other friend and I because he had to catch his bus home, but I was left there speechless from the flirtatious look he shot me as he walked away.

I didn't expect things to get to this point so suddenly. I've been trying to send him messages that expressed my feelings toward him, whether through the indirect words that I said to him, or the body language I used around him. I'm getting the feeling that it's starting to really work. And I have to be honest, I really enjoyed playing footsie with him in the presence of our other friend. It was exhilarating.

 

[D_Harry_Crax]

Here's some background information about my friend and me:

Me:
Bi, basically not out to anyone at all, and leaning toward the masculine side. I'm not homophobic to the public eye, and many of my college friends know me as being a gay magnet with a good gaydar. When asked about my sexuality (it happens occasionally), I just casually say that I'm straight without being or seeming offended. People believe me. I have friends who identify as gay/lesbian/bi/whatever ("queer"? I don't know all the terminology), and my extended groups of college friends are generally pretty open about people of various sexual orientations. I've had girlfriends, but never a boyfriend, per se (though I've had a couple FWB situations that were not too bad). I place a high value on friendships.

My friend:
We've just been friends since the beginning of this school year. He's Japanese and can speak English (I'm proficient enough in Japanese that we can switch between the two regularly). He claims to be straight, but appears to many people to be gay (etc.) based on his mannerisms and ways of speaking, among other things. I also believe that he is not straight, and I think he knows for the most part that I don't "mind" my friends' sexualities. (Of course I "care" about the issue because it's interesting to me, but I don't seek out friends of one sexual orientation over another.)
Anyway, he is not the best-looking guy, but there is a cuteness to him that I really enjoy. We have become close friends. He's stayed at my apartment multiple times (even in my bed) when it was too late for him to get the bus back to his host family's house (far from our school), though nothing sexually has actually happened. (The fact that he's stayed over is known by many of our friends, and it is assumed by them that nothing "happened".)

As you can tell, I'm interested in my friend. Like I mentioned, he's not necessarily the best-looking guy, but something about him is cute. His personality is what does a lot of it for me... Our chemistry is great: he has a more submissive personality, mine being more dominant or masculine. There is a good amount of banter that goes on between us, both in front of our friends and in private. We trust each other and often ask each other for advice.

I haven't made any moves, per se, but I've wanted to for a while. I occasionally sense something from him toward me, but I never know what to do with it. I think he is very shy about some of his true feelings. A few days ago, he suggested that we go to see a movie and go ice skating together at the mall (presumably just the two of us -- that is, without our other friends tagging along). I don't know if he has feelings for me exactly like I do for him, though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were so, and I often entertain the idea.

I really want something more between us. We are already close, and I feel like our relationship has a lot of unlocked potential. Assuming that each of us has feelings for the other, I don't want to do something or bring it up in a way that will harm our relationship. I actually want to go further with it, but I wouldn't want to somehow fail and make our friendship awkward.

Does anyone here have a similar experience or any words of wisdom for me? If you'd like more clarification on my situation, just ask, and can provide it.

I became convinced a long time ago that a disproportionate percentage of international students in U.S. universities are GLB. Think about it: in the USA, tons of young GLBT persons move to another city or state partially or entirely to come out, or at least to stay in the closet and have fun on the DL. The ultimate in getting away from family and friends to come out is to go to college in another country, particularly if you come from a country that is more conservative culturally about GLBT matters than the USA is. (There are about 200 countries in the world, and MOST of them are more conservative on GLBT issues than is the USA.)

 

[Blackle]

Just go for it. Chemistry is chemistry. There's always apologies if your not reciprocated. Don't forget that the world will not stop spinning if you get rejected or lose a friend (which I'm not encouraging). I think (talented as I am at reading through the lines/ been there) one of your concerns is that if he doesn't go for it that he'll end up telling your friends. Who cares! If attracted enough to him to write about it so. The truth will come to light, and if you know your friends have suspicions about you end them. They've already accepted you.

 

[gsisaac]

swede82, You brought up an interesting point!
The international students attending my school are plenty, and I've actually sensed before that many of them don't seem totally straight. Someone is probably going to read what I'm writing and blame this on cultural differences, but I've already that in. I honestly feel myself that if I was going to be outward about my sexuality, it would be easier to do it in a different country (so long as I can find friends there who are more nonjudgmental about non-heterosexuality). So I'm glad to have received your note about that!

Blackle, to be honest, I haven't really concerned myself with whether my friend will tell my other friends, if I come out to him. I sense that he is not so straight himself, and while he's certainly not out about it, I feel like I can trust him enough to let him know about myself. But I feel like before I just say it, I want him to sense my interest in him (for some reason... It's just how I feel about it). Obviously if he senses that I'm interested in him, it's a given that he'll sense my non-heterosexual side (though he may not know exactly whether I am bisexual or just homosexual, etc.).
Anyway, I also appreciate your encouragement and optimism about the situation as a whole! Your words have actually strung a high note for me... THANK YOU SO MUCH!

 

[dewit]

Since you mentioned the mutual friend inviting him to eat with you, maybe you could take it a step further and have someone privately ask him how he feels, of course not letting on that the question came from you but one of your friends who has seen the chemistry. That might be the best way to go about it if you're still unsure based on your own experiences. Unfortunately, he may be less willing to talk about it with someone else if you are his closest friend.