My Discrimination Against Gays

D_Martin van Burden

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@May 16 2005, 07:06 AM
LOL@ the term "straight" constantly being stretched to the motherfucking limit. If you can achieve and maintain an erection during intercourse with a man, let alone try to have sex with a man, how do you fit the description of straight? You're bisexual at the least.
[post=311605]Quoted post[/post]​

Don't you suppose that with said reasoning, this is one of several good reasons why straight guys want to "cling" onto their heterosexuality with a vice grip? So what if a category on sexuality is "stretched to the motherfucking limit?" If gay people aren't meant to be a monolithic classification, like Naughty said earlier, then that same privilege should go for straight people, too, even if said straight person's experiences might make people a little uncomfortable or if this person isn't easily defined because of what he has done.

I wasn't too struck by what the original poster had intended, and maybe that's because I know where he's coming from. He's had a few sexual encounters, but in his heart of hearts, he doesn't feel that "gay" is the label to describe him -- just like "Abercrombie and Fitch preppy guy" doesn't fit me at all. Whatever the consensus shows on the dynamic social representation of non-heterosexual people, it's a bit more difficult to ask your everyday person to go for the continuum understanding of sexuality because we still don't see in media experiences. Either we're loving or scoffing at the Queer Eye guys -- who, themselves, should a little bit of range in mannerism -- or making fun of people like Jack on "Will and Grace" -- or gawking at guys ripped straight out of Tom of Finland, decked head to toe in leather chaps, vests, and the obligatory metal rings/chains.

Don't you see? Whether it's Queer Eye or Tom of Finland, gay people have a real sense of "caricature" tacked onto their gender roles in a way that straight people won't. And if someone's conceptions are learned and built off of these way-out-there conceptions, then people who try to live more toward the middle are only going to aggravate their psyches even further. Don't even get me started on that metrosexual thing; I've heard more women show confusion toward those guys than anything else, and I admit that manicures and pedicures and hair styling products are a bit too much for me, too.

And for the record... I was run through the wringer in college by my "gay friends" because the moment they learned that I was experimenting, they kept insinuating that I would turn gay now or that I was in denial or that my heterosexual relations were all a sham. Fuck that! This was a real blow for me to be talked to like this, considering that gay people, in general, want more tolerance for other people. I found it hypocritical. And not that every gay person is going to act like that toward me, but this was a real negative learning experience and that continues to color my perceptions these days -- and that's just being honest.

Woo. Rambled way too long.

Summary:
-- Don't pigeonhole sexuality. It's way too complicated.
-- Sexual experience over the lifespan contributes to your current views.
-- We're still stuck with ridiculous standards to judge our own sexuality, and that's tough to deal with.
 

hung9mike

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Hi Blackwood, I think in some cultures (I'm thinking Latin American), you're only "gay" if you're playing the passive (bottom) role in the sexual encounter. If you're playing the active (top) role, you're still performing the role that a man is supposed to play, ergo, it's not "gay" behavior. I've wondered if most straight men assume that all gay men play the passive role. I wonder if this is what black10 thinks. This clearly can't be the case, else none of us gay men would be getting laid. Somebody has to drive the bus. :D

This thread reminds me of a male friend of mine, who several years ago became disillusioned with the selection of gay men in town, and decided to only date straight men. This struck me as being a recipe for having an extremely lonely sex life, but evidently he did go out on a few dates. It goes without saying that straight men do not date other men. What would be the point? If the guys were straight, I doubt they'd see the encounter as a date, and if they saw it as a date, how could they be straight? So the whole affair was based on people being dishonest with themselves, and I don't think that it's a healthy point of view.
 

hung9mike

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Originally posted by DeeBlackthorne@May 16 2005, 10:32 AM
And for the record... I was run through the wringer in college by my "gay friends" because the moment they learned that I was experimenting, they kept insinuating that I would turn gay now or that I was in denial or that my heterosexual relations were all a sham.
[post=311641]Quoted post[/post]​
Hi Dee, I'm glad you chimed in on this thread. Actually, I was hoping you would because you always have an insightful, well-reasoned argument. I don't think that one experiment, or two or three, necessarily makes anyone anything. People are plainly sexual, and under the right set of circumstances, almost anything could happen. Under the right set of circumstances (probably involving several drinks and some seduction on her part), I'm pretty sure I could have a heterosexual encounter again. I don't think it's very likely-- just not impossible. But for me to make that leap, so to speak, isn't as difficult as it would be for a straight man to have a gay encounter.

I think that we all have an underlying sexual orientation which is a part of our sexual practice. Notice I said a part, because there are other factors which determine our sexual practice. I don't think our orientations and practices are necessarily the same. Your personality, open-mindedness, and environment allowed you to have an experiment, whereas someone who nominally has the same orientation as you might have might not, ever. And you might never have another experiment again. It's just for men and women whose orientation is primarily homosexual, the experiments are successful :D and eventually become our standard practice.
 

Freddie53

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I taught sexuality in schools for sixth grade guys and Christian sexuality in the church for 7th through 12th grades for both genders.

It doesn't hurt to go back to the definitions of words and forget for a moment societies perceptions of what those words mean.

A homosexual is a person who is attracted sexually to members of the same gender.

A heterosexual is a person who is attracted sexually to a members of opposite gender.

A bisexual is a person who attracted sexually to both male and female persons.

A situational homosexual is a person who normally is attracted to the opposite gender, but develops an atraction for person of same sex because there is no one of the opposite sex available as in on a navy boat with no women, boarding schools, etc.

A situational heterosexual is usually a bisexual who suppresses his gay side and is exclusively heterosexual in activity. In the brain that person may fantasize or not fantasize about homosexual behavior, but that information is usually kept secret. A true 100 percent homosexual will not succeed in this. I don't know how many marriages that I knew of in the 70's that ended in divorce because a gay male maried a woman and could not consumate the marriage and the marriage ultimately failed. At 54 I don't hear the gossip about that as much but it still happens. People in the 20's and 30's don't share that as much with people my age. (They think we are morons and don't know this can happen. Just kidding, but people ted to share sexual stuff with people their own age.)

Homosexual behavior is sex between two people of the same gender. A hetrerosexual can engage in homosexual behavior for a variety of reasons. One, a young teenager experimenting. There is no romantic interest. But for guys. another guy's hand or anyone's mouth causes more intense orgasms better than solo masturbating. There is no sexual attraction. This is just a fuck buddy. Straights do not consider this activity as romantic so they will engage in it and consider themselves totaly straight. For gals, another gal using a dildo or their mouth brings more intense orgasms than solo masturbating.

Heterosexual behavior is sex between two people of the oppposite gender. They may or may not be attracted to each other. A homosexual may engage in this. In his or her mind they may be thinking of someone else other than their partner when engaging in sexual activity.

A penis has no brain. It doesn't know anything about genders. It may not know the difference between a shower curtain, a hand, a vagina or a mouth. It is the brain that knows the difference. It is in the brain that erotic thoughts occur. So the erotic thoughts may have little to do with the person that they are with.

The same can be said of the vagina.

Passion and love are not the same thing. I won't make this post too long by going into this lesson that I taught except to say that nearly all sexual behavior in young teens and most sexual behavior in older teens is passion and not love.

When a person gets horny enough, they can have one sexual activity going in the brain while being with a different person or they may even have an attraction to a person whom they normally would never be attracted to.

Gays are like straights in the passion thing. And gays are also into the love thing as in a committed partner.

Gays tend to have more multiple partners as mature adults than straights or at least it appears that way. I think that if gays were taught as young people that if they are gay they can fall in love with another gay person and live a committed life with them, more gays would do that. But that is not taught or shared. So gays have to discover this on their own. And it is harder for gays to find other gays interested in a long term partner than it is for straights.

I must confess that I did not teach about gays growing up and having a "civil union" with another gay. For one thing I haven't taught sex ed in 10 years. To teach that gays are "not going to hell in a hand basket." was bold then. To teach they were normal people was about as far as I could go at that time and with you know you in the White House. It still is.

I taught sex ed in church and in school. I thought is very important that young people have no guilt at all about any sexual encounters that had as young children or teenagers. I didn't know which ones might have been molested. I didn't know which ones had experimented with young people of the same sex or the opposite sex. The past can't be changed. My job was to be sure there was no guilt or confussion about orientation. That is why I had to find information that definititvely defined all the situations and I expained it to them. And I did not want any guilt over what the youth might have already done. I hate those campaigns where youth sign up and put their name on the virginity chart for all to see. And that is happening in churches and schools. It is totally inappropriate.

For the record, I never passed judgement on any sexual activity except adult and child. Even then I only talked of the wrongness of the adult, never the wrongness of the child.

My job in teaching sexuality both in school and church was to develop young people wiht all the knowledge there was. I didn't skip anything that I knew at the time. I also wanted these young people to have healthy attitudes about their body. In church I explained that they were God's children and God loved them just the way they were. In school I just said that all were normal and each of us is different. And different is OK.

I know I got a little off topic, but I thought that knowing why I was very definitive at the beginning had a reason. Words come and go. Ideas about what gays like and do come and go. But the above definitions are the same as they have been for centuries and will remain so. Words like metrosexual likely will be gone in a decade. Most of them come and go over time.

I'll conclude with a controversial statement. It is a belief of mine. Not a definiation. I think that the percent of people are are 100 per cent straight or homo is less than 20 percent. I am talking about 100 percent that can't go over to the "other side." I think that somewhere around 80 percent of the populatioin is capable or engaging in straight or gay sex if the "right" situations develop.

That is why the fundies are so uptight. They know this. Most of them have a "gay" side that while it may be only 20 percent, they know it is there. And they "hate" it. Or they think they do or were taught to hate it. Many of them are "situational straights" Enough of my opinion on this subject. At least I kept personal opinions to just two short paragraphs at the end. That is unusual for me!
 

LuckyLuke

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Originally posted by black10inches@May 16 2005, 01:14 AM
I know this might be a discriminating topic to some guys & women on this site. I just want to express some things I've been thinking about lately & I'd like to hear what other people here think.

I consider myself straight but I've had some sexual experiences with guys on the DL. These have been oral sex with the guys giving me head. I've really enjoyed these experiences & the time with these guys. But none of these guys consider themselves gay.

So here's my take on my own prejudices. I wonder why so many gays act weird? What I mean by that is that they are mean & caddy toward each other. And so many gays who are effeminate,try to act all studly. I don't think there's anything wrong with being effeminate,but why try to be something you're not? They can't bring it off because they have lisping voices or exaggerated gestures. There's another thing I don't understand & that is, if gay guys want to have sex or relationships with masculine guys, then why would they want to hang with each other? What I mean by this is why would an effeminate guy want to have sex with another effeminate guy?

So I'm writing this to understand gay people. It's hard for me to think of myself as gay because I don't have any of the chararcteristics of gays. At the same time I like having sex with guys sometimes. I realize I may be biseuxal so that's cool too. Any ideas?
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My guess this is a 'black' issue. You are not the first black guy I've heard make these kind of statements. Seems blacks have sexuality issues even more than whites. Any black gays I know are extremely shunned by their black friends. There are issues here and it is not gay people causing the issue.
 

hung9mike

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Originally posted by Freddie53@May 16 2005, 12:24 PM
I'll conclude with a controversial statement. It is a belief of mine. Not a definiation. I think that the percent of people are are 100 per cent straight or homo is less than 20 percent. I am talking about 100 percent that can't go over to the "other side." I think that somewhere around 80 percent of the populatioin is capable or engaging in straight or gay sex if the "right" situations develop.
[post=311682]Quoted post[/post]​
Hi Freddie, I don't think this assertion is as controversial as it might seem. Kinsey concluded that sexuality is a continuum between purely heterosexual and purely homosexual, not a dichotomous condition, and that many people fall somewhere along the continuum, in addition to those who fall at the extremes.
 

MisterMark

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My first reaction to this is, "Oh Jesus." But here are some answers (from my perspective, of course):

Originally posted by black10inches@May 15 2005, 06:14 PM
So here's my take on my own prejudices. I wonder why so many gays act weird?

As has already been mentioned, any group can be labeled "weird". Usually people use the word "weird" when they're unfamiliar with something. If you find a way to get to know some gay people outside of having anonymous sex with them, you might discover that you have much more in common with them than you realize.

What I mean by that is that they are mean & caddy toward each other. And so many gays who are effeminate,try to act all studly.

And why are all blacks lazy, on welfare, and have more kids than they can afford to have? You see, stupid stereotypes are easy to perpetrate.

They can't bring it off because they have lisping voices or exaggerated gestures.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for you - you're really in the dark, aren't you.

So I'm writing this to understand gay people. It's hard for me to think of myself as gay because I don't have any of the chararcteristics of gays. At the same time I like having sex with guys sometimes. I realize I may be biseuxal so that's cool too. Any ideas?
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Okay, I'm sorry for my abrupt responses. I'm sure you are sincere when you say that you're "trying to understand gay people". Aside from the responses you're getting here, I would suggest you do some reading. There are thousands of books that are for and/or about gay people. Here's a great list of books about being gay and "coming out" that someone created at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect...-/3LMKHCVTVQGPQ

I think that recognizing that you "may be bisexual" is a good thing. (Trust me, you are.) If you can start to understand that people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and personalities, I think you'll have an easier time accepting all types of people, not just gays. For the most part, the world is not "black or white" (to use a metaphor). Most people are "shades of grey".
 

Satsfakshun

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Originally posted by carolinacurious@May 15 2005, 09:00 PM
So here's my take on my own prejudices. I wonder why so many gays act weird? What I mean by that is that they are mean & caddy toward each other. And so many gays who are effeminate,try to act all studly. I don't think there's anything wrong with being effeminate,but why try to be something you're not? They can't bring it off because they have lisping voices or exaggerated gestures. There's another thing I don't understand & that is, if gay guys want to have sex or relationships with masculine guys, then why would they want to hang with each other? What I mean by this is why would an effeminate guy want to have sex with another effeminate guy?

Why are some gays "mean" and ""catty" to each other?

I imagine that there could be many explanations for this, for some it seems to come natural, some seem to be emulating favorite characters from novels or movies, some seem to think it's what you "have" to do. I don't think I would be too out of line if I said that the older you are and gay then probably the more shit you've had to deal with and to build up defenses to. Some want nothing or little to do with it, and sometimes it's just fun.

but why try to be something you're not? They can't bring it off because they have lisping voices or exaggerated gestures. There's another thing I don't understand & that is, if gay guys want to have sex or relationships with masculine guys, then why would they want to hang with each other? What I mean by this is why would an effeminate guy want to have sex with another effeminate guy?

Ok, first off, some effeminate guys want to have sex with other effeminate guys.

I hope this doesn't bring on a total shitstorm but let me reword one sentence for you (and I'm not saying tht gays are women).

"if women want to have sex or relationships with masculine guys, then why would they want to hang with each other?"

Perhaps they have more in common, maybe all relationships don't revolve around sex.

Ok, let's look at where your stereotype rings true. There are some effeminate gays who do want to have sex with masculine men. Some might say that the masculine man interested in gay sex is in demand. Does that explain why some gay men might try to come across as more masculine than they are?

Some guys may be effeminate but not particularly happy with that. Some guys, gay and straight, like to pretend to be something that they are not.
[post=311484]Quoted post[/post]​


As a gay man, I must say that I've discovered some of the meanest bastards on earth are other gay guys. I think it's because we have to wait so long for any kind of empowerment. Certainly growing up in middle America and going to high school can be hard on gay kids. Then there's the whole coming out and finally you find yourself in a community where you don't have to hide, where you can be yourself. I think some guys feel empowered and unthreatened for the first time in their lives just go off the deep end. They go on some kind of power trip where they think its fun to mess up people's lives and cause all kinds of trouble. It's one of the reasons I tend to look elsewhere than the "gay community" for kindred spirits.
 

hung9mike

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Originally posted by black10inches@May 15 2005, 08:14 PM
It's hard for me to think of myself as gay because I don't have any of the chararcteristics of gays.
[post=311469]Quoted post[/post]​
Following up on MisterMark's post, I'd like to point out that many homosexual men don't have the characteristics you describe. I don't think I'm stereotypically "gay" either. I don't think I have a conventional gay "look" or demeanor, nor do I "sound" gay. I drive a truck and I like sports. For this gay man, the Super Bowl is, well, the Super Bowl-- not the Oscars. :D And I'm mystified at the fascination with Madonna. So am I gay? Maybe-- and maybe not-- under the cultural and social definition of "gay", but doesn't it sound like I'm playing games with language if I say that? None of the outward characteristics matter because I have the one trait all homosexual/gay men share: an exclusive interest in other men. And in the end, that's the only characteristic that defines us as gay.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@May 16 2005, 04:06 AM
LOL@ the term "straight" constantly being stretched to the motherfucking limit. If you can achieve and maintain an erection during intercourse with a man, let alone try to have sex with a man, how do you fit the description of straight? You're bisexual at the least.
[post=311605]Quoted post[/post]​
And what about all the women who "It was just a phase, I was experimenting."?

BTW, I think trying to have sex with a man is kinda a prerequisite of maintaining an erection DURING INTERCOURSE WITH A MAN.
 

jonb

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BTW, about the DL, the problem is the fact that it is on the DL, not so much because it's with a man.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by jonb+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb)</div><div class='quotemain'>
And what about all the women who "It was just a phase, I was experimenting."?

[post=311738]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b]

What about them? They are obviously not straight either.


<!--QuoteBegin-jonb

BTW, I think trying to have sex with a man is kinda a prerequisite of maintaining an erection DURING INTERCOURSE WITH A MAN.
[post=311738]Quoted post[/post]​
[/quote]
"If you can achieve and maintain an erection during intercourse with a man, let alone try to have sex with a man, how do you fit the description of straight?"

"can" vs. "try to". I "can" cheat on my girlfriend, if I wanted to. But I&#39;m not "trying to". There&#39;s a difference. You know, I don&#39;t mind digressing as long as it&#39;s not pointless debates over syntax and grammar. Get a new hobby.
 

Pene_Negro_Grande

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I think everyone here has valid points...That is why I don&#39;t like to assume anyone&#39;s sexuality unless they state it...I only have one gay friend that I know about...But most of my friends and including myself would fit in the category as metrosexual...All the guys I hang out with are self proclaimed straight...I see the confusion for women because we get asked a lot if we are gay...But I have had instances where gay men push up kind of hard and just insist that we are gay or will be...I can&#39;t see that because I am really into women sexually (on a physical & emotional level)...But that being said does not mean that I have not had a few same sex encounters in the past - nothing too graphic though...Crazy thing about it is these encounters were w/self-proclaimed straight guys...So I never really like to assume someone&#39;s sexuality or like to put a label on mine...
 

B_black10inches

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick+May 16 2005, 12:06 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr. Dilznick &#064; May 16 2005, 12:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-black10inches
I consider myself straight but I&#39;ve had some sexual experiences with guys on the DL.
[post=311469]Quoted post[/post]​
LOL@ the term "straight" constantly being stretched to the motherfucking limit. If you can achieve and maintain an erection during intercourse with a man, let alone try to have sex with a man, how do you fit the description of straight? You&#39;re bisexual at the least.
[post=311605]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


Just wanting to thank all the folks who answered my post. I&#39;m feeling bad that some o the gays here felt I was being too prejudiced or negative at them. I&#39;m tryin to understand my own self. Dr.Dilznick, I don&#39;t buttfuck any of my bruthas. I&#39;ve gotten head from a few guys who are on the DL. What that means to me is that they have girls but have sex with guys on the side. Their ladies don&#39;t know what they&#39;re doing. I&#39;ve given head to my bruthas too & it&#39;s cool for me. I like playing around with big dicks & I like getting mine played with. So maybe this is gay. Not sure if it&#39;s gay the way the femmy guys are gay. I&#39;m believing that there&#39;s a lot of ways to be sexual or bi or gay. I&#39;m feeling uncomfrtable around the nellie boys. So I know that must be my own thing to work out for myself. Ok, peace out.
 

Lex

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I lived 29 years of my life attracted to men and not understanding why becasue I was also attracted to women. I never had a sexual experience with another guy until 3 years ago. Coming out over the past few years has been an empowering experience. Not all gay and bisexual people behave similarly, just as not all straight people behave in a singular, robotic fashion.

From your behavior and posts, I would assume that you may be labeled as BI, Black10inches. I enjoy MM action and MF action and MFM action and MMM action and MFMFMFM action--okay you get the point.

You don&#39;t have to like all the different types of gay individuals, just as you don&#39;t have to like all the different types of straight folk. A LOT of gay men don&#39;t like really fem guys. Masculinity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. You can be a gay man and masculine--the two concepts are NOT mutualy exclusive.

I really wish Oprah had never brought up the DL thing in the manner that she did. It has given a lot of guys a reason to believe that they are still straight when they are having sex with other men. I mean, c&#39;mon...
 

hung9mike

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Originally posted by black10inches@May 16 2005, 03:52 PM
I&#39;m tryin to understand my own self.
[post=311781]Quoted post[/post]​
Hi there black10inches, I think that&#39;s laudable and important. I think it&#39;s important for each of us to understand what makes us tick. Like you (I&#39;m guessing), I struggled with the idea of wanting to have sex with men for a long time. I knew that I was homosexual in orientation, but I didn&#39;t identify with the gay men I knew at the time and I certainly wasn&#39;t attracted to them sexually. So I was faced with (1) being in straight relationships but at least getting laid and not being happy sexually or (2) being gay but celibate and not being happy sexually. Given the two options, (1) didn&#39;t look so bad to me :D and it&#39;s what I chose for a long time. It wasn&#39;t until I moved from a small college town to a major metropolitan area that I realized that there were gay men who were like me and that I could be attracted to.

I&#39;ve heard it argued that people don&#39;t have sexual orientations, we have affectional orientations. I&#39;m still deciding if I really believe this, or if our affectional orientation is somehow related to our sexual orientation. One of things that you no doubt realize is that nothing but sex will ever come of the encounters with the men you&#39;ve been with. Maybe this is all you want, if so, great. I don&#39;t know if you&#39;re married, have a girlfriend, etc., although the implication of being on the down low is that you are hitched in some way. I pretty much always knew that I could become romantically attached to men, having had a few crushes in my time :) but having feelings like that towards a straight guy is a serious dead-end road. Ultimately, I knew I had to venture out and start looking harder for gay men if I was going to find what I wanted. And what life taught me was that, much to my initial surprise, there are a lot of gay men who felt just like I did. So don&#39;t give up on gay men just yet. I&#39;m willing to wager that there are gay men out there that you might find attractive. You just haven&#39;t found them yet.
 

MisterMark

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As a gay man, I must say that I&#39;ve discovered some of the meanest bastards on earth are other gay guys.  I think it&#39;s because we have to wait so long for any kind of empowerment.  Certainly growing up in middle America and going to high school can be hard on gay kids.  Then there&#39;s the whole coming out and finally you find yourself in a community where you don&#39;t have to hide, where you can be yourself.  I think some guys feel empowered and unthreatened for the first time in their lives just go off the deep end.  They go on some kind of power trip where they think its fun to mess up people&#39;s lives and cause all kinds of trouble.  It&#39;s one of the reasons I tend to look elsewhere than the "gay community" for kindred spirits.
[post=311706]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t think gay people are any nicer or meaner than the population at large. People are people. If someone comes across as mean or catty, it probably has a lot more to do with that individual&#39;s personality and background than it does with being gay, bisexual, or otherwise.

In general, however, I&#39;ve always felt a better connection with other gay or bisexual guys. My perception has been that most straight guys are uncomfortable associating with gay guys. I&#39;m sure that&#39;s changing as the years go by, but it&#39;s certainly been a truism for a long time.
 

txquis

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DeeF and DR ROCK&#39;s reactions were great....very similar to mine.

Gay people *don&#39;t* have the market cornered on being "weird".
(Just come to work with me and i&#39;ll show you weird).

You just cant win with this stereotyping by sexuality bit....

Man...I&#39;m so offended by the thread title here....I&#39;m sure (or, i HOPE)
it wasnt intentional, but...
think of it this way.....
IF you substituted, "African American......Female......Indian.......Jew.....YOU NAME IT" for the word "gay" in the thread title, people wouldn&#39;t STAND for it.....

Why discriminate at all? this is the 21st century.