I also suspect one doesn't have to like all types of straight women in order to be straight. I also know from experience that one can be 100% gay and still have sex with a woman. When I was young, I could have sex with anything animate or inanimate (never was into bestiality) because somewhere in the world some man was exciting me all the time. Basically I was host to a perpetual erection.
My Discrimination Against Gays
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Lex
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Sorry about my bad choice of words. I'm just learning about this gay world. I don't think I could tell a guy who is gay or bisexual but doesn't act like effeminate. Maybe that's the trouble with me. I only see these guys who are effeminate. So where do you meet the guys who aren't that way?
BTW there's a lot of negative shyt about gay people where I live. So how can I say I'm gay if everybody hates gay folks? Sorry that's just the way it is.
My DL bruthas are just in the neighborhood & I don't think they go to any gay clubs. Now I think I'm geting confused.
carolinacurious:
Maybe you just caught me in a good mood, but I took your post as an honest inquiry and even though you did hit upon some offensive stereotypes I sensed that that wasn't your purpose. I also have wrestled with many of the same issues myself.
"I only see these guys who are effeminate."
Well that's really the problem isn't it? If you equate "gay" and "effeminate man" then the only gay men you see will be effeminate. And this isn't just your problem, it's a culture wide problem.
"So where do you meet the guys who aren't that way?"
Everywhere. Yeah, it's a little harder. I'd like a "gaydar" upgrade myself. I you can figure out how to tell the non-effeminate gay man apart from the "truly comfortable with his sexuality" straight man let me know. (I seem to be particularly cursed with this one).
"BTW there's a lot of negative shyt about gay people where I live. So how can I say I'm gay if everybody hates gay folks? Sorry that's just the way it is."
Well, know in your heart that most of the negative shit is just crap and keep that in mind when you hear people spewing it forth. Everyone doesn't hate gay folks, really. You have to pick your battles; first, remember there is nothing "wrong" with an effeminate gay man, it may not be your sexual cup of tea but they're good people too and deserve dignity, kindness and respect (except for the ones who are Southern Baptist ministers). But you could point out that not all gay men are effeminate. Sometimes you can view things as an educational opportunity other times you just have to walk away from people spewing hateful bile (but you should wonder more about what they're telling you about themselves rather than what they have to say about anyone else.)
If you're gay eventually you will have to say you're gay whether the people around you like it or not, or it will bring you more personal pain than not being honest will. If you're Bi, then you'll have to forge your own path (just like everybody else, really); just try not to make life anymore difficult for the gay people around you.
"Sorry that's just the way it is."
You can't change the world by yourself, nor can anyone else. But this does sound particularly defeatist. Maybe you can nudge it a little.
Good, welcome, we're having a big party! I can't give you the answers because I haven't answered them all myself but realize you have started to understand that much of what you have accepted as truth is wrong. Many of the people around you who have such a virulent dislike of gays don't even know what "gay" is and probably have something they aren't particularly comfortable with about themselves.
Maybe you just caught me in a good mood, but I took your post as an honest inquiry and even though you did hit upon some offensive stereotypes I sensed that that wasn't your purpose. I also have wrestled with many of the same issues myself.
"I only see these guys who are effeminate."
Well that's really the problem isn't it? If you equate "gay" and "effeminate man" then the only gay men you see will be effeminate. And this isn't just your problem, it's a culture wide problem.
"So where do you meet the guys who aren't that way?"
Everywhere. Yeah, it's a little harder. I'd like a "gaydar" upgrade myself. I you can figure out how to tell the non-effeminate gay man apart from the "truly comfortable with his sexuality" straight man let me know. (I seem to be particularly cursed with this one).
"BTW there's a lot of negative shyt about gay people where I live. So how can I say I'm gay if everybody hates gay folks? Sorry that's just the way it is."
Well, know in your heart that most of the negative shit is just crap and keep that in mind when you hear people spewing it forth. Everyone doesn't hate gay folks, really. You have to pick your battles; first, remember there is nothing "wrong" with an effeminate gay man, it may not be your sexual cup of tea but they're good people too and deserve dignity, kindness and respect (except for the ones who are Southern Baptist ministers). But you could point out that not all gay men are effeminate. Sometimes you can view things as an educational opportunity other times you just have to walk away from people spewing hateful bile (but you should wonder more about what they're telling you about themselves rather than what they have to say about anyone else.)
If you're gay eventually you will have to say you're gay whether the people around you like it or not, or it will bring you more personal pain than not being honest will. If you're Bi, then you'll have to forge your own path (just like everybody else, really); just try not to make life anymore difficult for the gay people around you.
"Sorry that's just the way it is."
You can't change the world by yourself, nor can anyone else. But this does sound particularly defeatist. Maybe you can nudge it a little.
Good, welcome, we're having a big party! I can't give you the answers because I haven't answered them all myself but realize you have started to understand that much of what you have accepted as truth is wrong. Many of the people around you who have such a virulent dislike of gays don't even know what "gay" is and probably have something they aren't particularly comfortable with about themselves.
One of the men I work with is the absolute "gayest" guy I have ever encountered in my 51 years of observing men. From the clothes to the mannerisms; the voice to the grooming just SCREAMS I'm GAY! And you know what? He's a raging heterosexual. 5 kids and a wife who can't keep her hands off him. We've had the obligatory "gay" conversations and he says (and I believe him) that he's never had not a single gay experience and he's in his early 40's. He is very aware he comes of "gay" and really does not give a shit. So cuz' he's "fem" I guess he gets to be avoided as well?
- vega,
In regards to the whole feminine quality thing I have knnown many gay guys that were more manly than myself by many a stride. All a matter of preference. There are masculine women, feminine men and everything in between. And there will always be someone out there looking for exactly that.
Don't take this the wrong way but in regards to you being bi, your 50% hetero and 50% gay but you act in a way that would be considered 100% hetero and masculine so why wouldn't you believe a guy can be sexual with another man but also be masculine? You do it obviously. Like if you were to stop being with women you would still be you regardless of the fact and would not suddenly develop a limp wrist.
Don't take this the wrong way but in regards to you being bi, your 50% hetero and 50% gay but you act in a way that would be considered 100% hetero and masculine so why wouldn't you believe a guy can be sexual with another man but also be masculine? You do it obviously. Like if you were to stop being with women you would still be you regardless of the fact and would not suddenly develop a limp wrist.
Perhaps. But there's no way he's "90% heterosexual" or whatever you want to call it. He's just another product of the black community's homophobia, which has dudes creeping while 'covering' with a chick. And BTW, you don't have to classify yourself as gay, straight or bisexual.
Perhaps. But there's no way he's "90% heterosexual" or whatever you want to call it. He's just another product of the black community's homophobia, which has dudes creeping while 'covering' with a chick. And BTW, you don't have to classify yourself as gay, straight or bisexual.
[post=312044]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]I am older than most of you, and I have spent most of my life trying to put a label on what I am. When I was young, I was sure that I was heterosexual, and the mutual masturbation with neighborhood guys was just a rite of passage.
Then I married. After marriage, I developed two very intense sexual and emotional relationships with men. After thousands of dollars of therapy, I finally decided that I was bi-sexual.
Now that I am older and have been through a lot, I don't really believe there is such a thing as gay or straight. We travel through areas of attraction during our life, and those areas vary. At any given moment in time our orientation may move on that continuum between gay and straight. Finally, we adapt to that area that is most comfortable for us. As for me, at present, I only have sex with men, but that might change again. So I guess that I am gay now. But I have, during my life, had sex with women. (Come to think of it, most of my sex has been with myself. Is that gay?) I think people that are highly sexed are attracted to other people who are highly sexed,,,,be they male or female. Then, the most comfortable and natural sex for them becomes standard for them. Those who easily say they are 100% heterosexual may not be as highly sexed as the rest of us.
By the way, I am one of those "masculine" gay men. The first affair I had with a man was with a man who told me that he hesitated to approach me because I seemed so straight. That affair lasted ten years. There are masculine guys out there who are dying to jump in bed with a man. They are just harder to locate.
Sorry about my bad choice of words. I'm just learning about this gay world. I don't think I could tell a guy who is gay or bisexual but doesn't act like effeminate. Maybe that's the trouble with me. I only see these guys who are effeminate. So where do you meet the guys who aren't that way?
BTW there's a lot of negative shyt about gay people where I live. So how can I say I'm gay if everybody hates gay folks? Sorry that's just the way it is.
My DL bruthas are just in the neighborhood & I don't think they go to any gay clubs. Now I think I'm geting confused.
[post=311851]Quoted post[/post]
[/quote]Therein lies the problem, the vicious circle. I would be willing to bet that your "DL bruthas", when in a group, would be the loudest voices condemning gay men. There is just something terribly disturbing to me about men who gay-bash in public and suck cock in private. Kinda like the pedophilic priests, I suggest. That is the first half of what I find so wrong with "DL." The second half is that you have to be a liar to be DL. You claim to be straight, and lie to your wife or girlfriend. Consider this: If you have to lie about it, then you must think it is wrong. Why do you have a compulsion to do, and continue to do, something you think is wrong? If you don't think it is wrong, then is it not time to stop lying about it? The best rule of thumb is, don't do things you are ashamed of. Either examine and extinguish your shame, or examine and extinguish the behavior. Don't try to have it both ways, you will only end up hurting yourself and others.
Therein lies the problem, the vicious circle. I would be willing to bet that your "DL bruthas", when in a group, would be the loudest voices condemning gay men. There is just something terribly disturbing to me about men who gay-bash in public and suck cock in private. Kinda like the pedophilic priests, I suggest. That is the first half of what I find so wrong with "DL." The second half is that you have to be a liar to be DL. You claim to be straight, and lie to your wife or girlfriend. Consider this: If you have to lie about it, then you must think it is wrong. Why do you have a compulsion to do, and continue to do, something you think is wrong? If you don't think it is wrong, then is it not time to stop lying about it? The best rule of thumb is, don't do things you are ashamed of. Either examine and extinguish your shame, or examine and extinguish the behavior. Don't try to have it both ways, you will only end up hurting yourself and others.
[post=312088]Quoted post[/post]
[/quote]I'm feeling really bad right now. I know when I brought up this topic & how I talk about it would be bad for some folks. But I wanted to say the truth about my prejudices because I've sure enough had lots of prejudice directed at me in my life. DC_Deep's saying some right things. The more I read what you all say, the more I'm realizing that I'm living in a place where I'm doing myself more harm than good. And I think hurting other people too. I don't want that.
After this last semester at college I moved back to my family home in the neighborhood for the summer to save some money. But being here all the time is terrible for me. All I get is a negative mentality from all my friends & even my family. Even the bruthas I'm having some sex with are telling me a lotta shyt that I don't want to hear any more. My friends tell me gay people are bad & so does my family & the church too. I don't know if I'm gay,but I don't want to hear that I'm no good,because I know I am.
I don't know what happening to me but I don't want to be a liar or a lost guy any more. I've decided to move downtown to live with some friends from college. I can't take what happening to me. Then I read that thread about dads caring about their kids. All I could think of was my own daddy & how I wish I could talk to him right now. I know he'd be able to help me with all this shyt.
So I'm sorry if my post hurt people's feelings or I said all the wrong things. I'm doing the best that I can & it aint easy.
Lex
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- Lex,
Honesty is best, Black10inches. When I first began accpeting who I was totally, I had to come clean and let my wife know. Was it the easiest conversation in the world (series of conversations, really)--no. But in the end, she now knows that I proceed with my sexuality in a mutually agreed-upon way and everything is above board. I don't have to sneak around and hide what I do, what sites I visit, who I lust for, or who I am with.
Being honest begins with yourself. Once you are honest with yourself, you can begin the process of loving yourself and acceptin who you are 100% as a person and individual.
Good luck.
Being honest begins with yourself. Once you are honest with yourself, you can begin the process of loving yourself and acceptin who you are 100% as a person and individual.
Good luck.
Trust me -- black guys aren't the only people "creeping." You better start including those white folks or Hispanic people or somethin' if you're going to make broad generalizations like that. It's a homophobic culture, period, that makes it intensely difficult to be open and honest about your non-heterosexual sexual relations. As far as I know, nobody has it easy doing anything but the straight way.
And while I'm at it, I don't think it's very realistic to say that people can go through life without, at some point, feeling the pressure to be classified. It's a sociological concept. However inefficient these sexuality labels are to us, they give us some semblance of vocabulary that helps describe to ourselves and to others the way we operate as social beings. These labels have a purpose. In fact, they infiltrate our meaning in some way -- hell, even people who refuse to create a sexuality label are still playing the label game. They're "non-labellers" -- or, to expand that, "open," "open-minded," "curious," "straight but not narrow" (I like that one), or what have you. It's unavoidable because terminology of difference -- how I'm not like you -- carries such social weight in our American culture, not just our individual racial differences.
But honestly, I see two people getting hurt here. One: the women who are being cheated on. Cheating is cheating is cheating whether it's with a dick or a vagina. And two: the person on the DL. How horrible it must be to continue to live a double life that brings little satisfaction. On the contrary, just because the sex feels good that doesn't make understanding oneself any easier. Significant endeavors like figuring out which way you swing really exhausts the emotions and the nerves, I think. To some gay folks, sexuality is seen as this insignificant thing because, all their lives, they've met people who constant call attention to it; after a while, who gives a fuck, right? But to heterosexuals -- even if their heterosexuality is a given, it is still this major concept that makes them socially acceptable no matter which other aspects of self make them different, stand out, uncomfortable, and so forth.
Just do this dude a favor and don't minimize his experience or his trifle in trying to sort himself out. Although I really discuss my sexuality business with other people, I couldn't imagine having a few supportive people in my life who were cool with me playing the field and figuring myself out a little bit. This guy must have it way worse.
- jonb,
Yeah, some women will recoil at notion of dating a guy who's bi, straight-but-not-narrow, or otherwise in-between, but I always tell women, love me for me or love nothing. (This also applies to those naïve women who think they can change a guy.)
Actually, when I explain that my feelings for men are different than my feelings for women, and not just in a sexual way either, and I tell them that if I ever do start to seek out other men they'll know who those men are, most of them have been quite accepting.
Actually, when I explain that my feelings for men are different than my feelings for women, and not just in a sexual way either, and I tell them that if I ever do start to seek out other men they'll know who those men are, most of them have been quite accepting.
Black10, my intention with the earlier post was not to make you feel badly about yourself, just to encourage you to examine yourself, your thoughts, feelings, desires, emotions, and your actions. Self-examination is NOT an easy thing to do, but it is necessary to be a happy, healthy, loveable person. I DO understand much of what you are going through. I am from a large family, and a very large extended family - each of my parents had 5 siblings, and I have 5 siblings. So after all the marriages, that gave me 20 aunts & uncles plus 5 brothers & sisters, and 5 brothers- and sisters-in-law. I'm not even gonna try to count all the cousins and nephews. In all that mix, I'm the only gay I know of. Add to that, I grew up in small-town Arkansas, and almost everyone in the family is Baptist, with a few Catholics & others thrown in. Yes, I do indeed know about homophobia. I was in my 30s when I finally came out, all the way out. My brothers & sisters were always trying to fix me up with women, encouraging me to get married & have children (they all have boys, no girls, and figured me as the last chance for the parents to have a granddaughter and for them to have a niece.) I eventually grew weary of the pressure, and the lies, and the excuses, and decided that they had to know - regardless of how they felt about it. I was prepared to say a final goodbye to any family members who had a problem with me being gay. Fortunately, they all had the good sense to realize that even though I am gay, I'm still the same brother/son they have known and loved all these years, and so accept me. Coming out was the single most life-untangling experience I have ever had, and since then I have been happier than I ever was before. It was not easy, but it was necessary.
I won't label or classify you as straight, bi, or gay. If you want to quantify things, that should be up to you. But be honest with yourself.
Really, the point in all this rambling is just simply: examine, accept, and love yourself. Everything else will fall into place if you surround yourself with people who will also love and accept you.
I won't label or classify you as straight, bi, or gay. If you want to quantify things, that should be up to you. But be honest with yourself.
Really, the point in all this rambling is just simply: examine, accept, and love yourself. Everything else will fall into place if you surround yourself with people who will also love and accept you.
Frodo Boy: Yeah in response to the first post by the topic creator.
It is true that gay people can be very rude to each other, this is mainly because allot of them are shallow.
I mean I should know because Im gay, but Im not shallow.
And about you saying that you dont have any gay characteristics. Dude Im as gay as you can get. But I dont act like a woman, I dont wear make up or have a lisp. I watch racing and baseball damnit... lol. Yeah what I mean to say is that not all gay people are the steryotyle that is thrown upon us. Allot of us act like str8 guys naturally, only difference bein we like cock.
And about the thing why do we want to be with each other since we " want masculine built men. Well for me at least bein tall and havin muscles is a turn off. The boy Im with is 5'5'' and ave weight. Gay ppl are turned on by diff types just like str8 ppl.
It is true that gay people can be very rude to each other, this is mainly because allot of them are shallow.
I mean I should know because Im gay, but Im not shallow.
And about you saying that you dont have any gay characteristics. Dude Im as gay as you can get. But I dont act like a woman, I dont wear make up or have a lisp. I watch racing and baseball damnit... lol. Yeah what I mean to say is that not all gay people are the steryotyle that is thrown upon us. Allot of us act like str8 guys naturally, only difference bein we like cock.
And about the thing why do we want to be with each other since we " want masculine built men. Well for me at least bein tall and havin muscles is a turn off. The boy Im with is 5'5'' and ave weight. Gay ppl are turned on by diff types just like str8 ppl.
I have enjoyed following this topic because it reminds me so much of the voyage of self-discovery that I have gone through. And most of you are at the beginning of it. In many ways, it is more difficult today to be gay than when I was young. When I was young, virtually everyone was closeted. Now, if you are with someone who is not closeted, you are almost forced to come out yourself. And, I think that is a good thing. But, there is still a huge segment of our society that cannot accept homosexuality. I live in a very conservative, religious, southern town. I cannot talk about my sexuality. Many know that I am mostly gay (including my wife), but it simply cannot be discussed openly here. Black 10, you may find it freeing to move somewhere else where you do not have family, church, and stereotypes around you making you feel uncomfortable. Then, you can find out who you really are. I wish I had done that 40 years ago and saved the agony of the journey I have had.
I want to know why you think that some gay people are rude. Also why do you feel that they are shallow? Is this a thing that people who are oppressed do? I think that a lot of minority groups have a their own special humor that puts their own group down. It's like a way to communicate that other people don't understand.
A lot of gay people are rude and shallow because a lot of people are rude and shallow. Those aren't necessarily gay faults, but human flaws that you can expect to find in any group of people.
The topic starter is getting some things mixed up.
He is mixing personality and the physical attributes that make up a guy.
Let me explain with my own preferences, which may explain clearly.
A guy acting feminen does not change the fact that he is a guy. Acting feminen means he has characteristics which make him act that way. Be the same as if we looked at a straight guy who we do not consider "manly", likley someone who doesn't play sports, someone who is not muscular, and is very quiet and shy..those are all characteristics that would make someone not seem very manly. There are many straight guys that are that way and women still find them sexually stimulating, thats because they are guys afterall.
For me, personally, I find the slim to average weight guys and guys with also a slim or average build the most sexy..these are my ideal guys. These are the guys I fantasize about. I dont mind guys that are defined, or have some muscle (but very little). Otherwise, if they are too muscular, 90% of the time, it is a pretty big turnoff. That 10%, if they are really muscular, the only way they could combat that is if they were amazingly good looking. In the end though, those natural guys, slim to average build are really what gets me going.
Now how can that be when I'm gay ? should I not like guys that are muscular?
Of course not, we all have our preference.
The bottom line is, I am fucking or getting fucked by a GUY, and mentally that is what matters and gets me going. (that is where the turn on is) but every gay guy gets turned on by different physical and personality characteristics.
He is mixing personality and the physical attributes that make up a guy.
Let me explain with my own preferences, which may explain clearly.
A guy acting feminen does not change the fact that he is a guy. Acting feminen means he has characteristics which make him act that way. Be the same as if we looked at a straight guy who we do not consider "manly", likley someone who doesn't play sports, someone who is not muscular, and is very quiet and shy..those are all characteristics that would make someone not seem very manly. There are many straight guys that are that way and women still find them sexually stimulating, thats because they are guys afterall.
For me, personally, I find the slim to average weight guys and guys with also a slim or average build the most sexy..these are my ideal guys. These are the guys I fantasize about. I dont mind guys that are defined, or have some muscle (but very little). Otherwise, if they are too muscular, 90% of the time, it is a pretty big turnoff. That 10%, if they are really muscular, the only way they could combat that is if they were amazingly good looking. In the end though, those natural guys, slim to average build are really what gets me going.
Now how can that be when I'm gay ? should I not like guys that are muscular?
Of course not, we all have our preference.
The bottom line is, I am fucking or getting fucked by a GUY, and mentally that is what matters and gets me going. (that is where the turn on is) but every gay guy gets turned on by different physical and personality characteristics.
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