My limit has been reached

vince

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I say this as someone who takes all the history of the region into account...how we have abused our relationships in that part of the world and how our own culture undermines theirs. Even with that open-hearted understanding...it is getting extremely difficult to remain open-minded. And I hate that!

Very well put. The war on terror and the non-stop media barrage is straining everyone's nerves I think.

I just read another thread about Pat Robertson's I-35 Holy Road to Perdition and it occurred to me that this is the same fundamentalist, narrow-minded belief system that we see in Islam and other religions. Is there really much difference between what is happening in the Sudan and what Pat would LIKE to do?
 

DC_DEEP

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nicenycdick, I don't totally disagree with you.

I think a lot of people misunderstand when the subject of "tolerance for another person's religion" is brought up. Tolerance is NOT carte blanche. You can tolerate islam without tolerating extremists; you can tolerate Jews without tolerating the Kach or Kahane or radical zionist groups; you can tolerate christianity without tolerating fred phelps or pat robertson or child-molesting priests.

Islam is still a very young religion. I'm sure it's going through its own growing pains, just as christianity did back in the 11th century, and just as judaism did around 3000 years back.

I won't judge a whole group by the actions of a few, and I won't show any less tolerance toward any group than they show toward me.
 

ManlyBanisters

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By your reasoning, everyone who despises Fred Phelps could similarly claim to hate Christianity.

Your statement doesn't make you sound judgemental so much as ignorantly short-sighted.

I have to say - and it feels a little odd :tongue: - but I agree 100% with HG on this.

There's a lot I find disagreeable and even distasteful about fundamentalist Islamists - but then there's a lot I find disagreeable and distasteful about fundamentalist anything.. Christianity and atheism included.
 
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The same could be said about christianity . George w Bush is a practicing christian , he really believe that god told him to invade Irak.

Religion isn't the problem. Fundamentalist interpretation and application of the faiths is the problem. It seems that anytime fundamentalists get power, they abuse it. I agree that this situation and the other one about the rape case in Saudi Arabia are an abuse of human rights. But I don't think it is reasonable to condemn a faith based on the actions of politicians. We don't have to look very far back in history to find horrible abuses by any religion, ethic group, nation or what have you.

By your reasoning, everyone who despises Fred Phelps could similarly claim to hate Christianity.

Your statement doesn't make you sound judgemental so much as ignorantly short-sighted.

Very well put. The war on terror and the non-stop media barrage is straining everyone's nerves I think.

I just read another thread about Pat Robertson's I-35 Holy Road to Perdition and it occurred to me that this is the same fundamentalist, narrow-minded belief system that we see in Islam and other religions. Is there really much difference between what is happening in the Sudan and what Pat would LIKE to do?


There is no separation of church and state in these countries. The states support Islam and Islam supports the states. Their legal systems, civil and ecclesiastical, are intertwined.

Islam has two tenets of faith, the Koran and the Hadiths. The Koran is believed to be the revealed word of God as given to Mohammed by an angel. The Hadiths are the sayings, actions, and lists of what Mohammed himself approved of. All Muslims must follow the Koran, but following the Hadiths has degrees of acceptance. The Koran itself states the following about graven images:
[21:58] He broke them into pieces, except for a big one, that they may refer to it. [21:59] They said, "Whoever did this to our gods is really a transgressor."
[21:60] They said, "We heard a youth threaten them; he is called Abraham."
[21:61] They said, "Bring him before the eyes of all the people, that they may bear witness."
[21:62] They said, "Did you do this to our gods, O Abraham?"
[21:63] He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."
[21:64] They were taken aback, and said to themselves, "Indeed, you are the ones who have been transgressing."
[21:65] Yet, they reverted to their old ideas: "You know full well that these cannot speak."
[21:66] He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?
[21:67] "You have incurred shame by worshipping idols beside GOD. Do you not understand?"
From this comes the prohibition against worshiping idols. Rather benign and indirect in my estimation. Certainly I don't think anyone was seeking to worship a teddy bear.

Now the Hadiths are a bit different. Particular Chapter 305. Herewith (points highlighted for emphasis):
678. Ibn `Umar (May Allah be pleased with them) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Those who draw pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection; and it will be said to them: `Breathe soul into what you have created.'''

1679. `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) visited me after returning from a journey, and I had a shelf with a thin cloth curtain hanging over it and on which there were portraits. When he saw it, the colour of his face changed (because of anger) and he said, "O `Aishah! the most grievous torment from Allah on the Day of Resurrection will be for those who imitate (Allah) in the act of His creation.'' `Aishah said: We tore it into pieces and made a cushion or two cushions out of that.

1680. Ibn `Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying, "Every painter will go to Hell, and for every portrait he has made, there will be appointed one who will chastise him in the Hell.'' Ibn `Abbas said: If you have to do it, draw pictures of trees and other inanimate things.

1681. Ibn `Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying, "Whosoever makes a picture, will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and will be asked to infuse soul therein, which he will not be able to do.''

1682. Ibn Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying, "Those who will receive the most severe punishment from Allah on the Day of Resurrection will be painters (of living objects).''

1683. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "The Almighty Allah said: `Who is more an oppressor than him who goes to create like My creation? Let him make an ant or a grain of corn or a grain of barley.'''

1684. Abu Talhah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a portrait.''
Sorry artists, you're going to the lowest level of Hell. Teddy bear makers too.

From these, many Muslims believe that any image of any sort that resembles any living thing is a blasphemy. Interpretation of and adherence to the Hadiths is comparatively flexible depending on the sect. It is from the Hadiths that most outside (mis?)understanding of Islam comes.

Think of the Hadiths as the New Testament outside of the four evangelical gospels; men who believe they believe they knew what Mohammed (or Jesus) would have wanted.
 

dreamer20

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The government is hanging their own selves in the world stage as a result of this. I am absolutely outraged that the lesson these 7 year olds are being taught is that you can love anything and anyone, but be careful what you call them as you could be punished for it.
That said, we must also be mindful that this is one nation and not even that whole nation is like this ...
We need to remember be mad at the few idiots, but not a whole sector of people.

I'm not surprised by the outcome of this case.

I hope that the lesson that these children learn is the great lengths that radical clerics resort to in order to purge Sudan of non Moslems. And that the courts of Sudan would rather be a tool of these radicals than to dispense justice by dismissing this matter. Such is the danger posed in that nation by the religious intolerance of the present theocracy which could not let this teddy bear business be settled in a school.
 

Osiris

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I'm not surprised by the outcome of this case.

I hope that the lesson that these children learn is the great lengths that radical clerics resort to in order to purge Sudan of non Moslems. And that the courts of Sudan would rather be a tool of these radicals than to dispense justice by dismissing this matter. Such is the danger posed in that nation by the religious intolerance of the present theocracy which could not let this teddy bear business be settled in a school.

Well said Dreamer. Thank you.:smile:
 

DC_DEEP

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Jason_els, thank you for clarifying my comments about graven images. My knowledge was not specific, and I was too lazy to research it.

That's the reason that most islamic art consists solely of abstract designs.
 

nicenycdick

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Really? There are mobs of crazed Christians calling for people to be murdered for naming teddy bears?

Not today...but history is filled with the abuse wrought by fundamentalist sects...and no religion seems to have been immune. I'm not sure you can call Islam exactly a "young" religion. But some of what is happening smacks of immaturity, certainly. In fact, the more fundamentalist reaction reminds me of the cruel acts of child...thoughtless, selfish, mean-spirited, exclusionary and without regard for consequences. This said...how do you discipline a wayward child? With love? With verbal abuse? Economic deprivation? Physical punishment? A mix of the above? I'm not sure...but some discipline is necessary, I think. Can we condone such behaviour with our silence?
 

againredundant

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This is all being given big play in the western media to further feed fear and hatred toward anything middle eastern. It plays right into W's eternal "war on terra."

I think it is given play because it is an obscene display of savagery and we, in our belief that everybody is nice and good, are shocked when we see pure evil at work.

W has nothing to do with it, however--unless some people think he's behind a teddy bear conspiracy to insult you know who.
 
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It is very difficult for those of us with little exposure to Islam to understand that Islam is much like Christianity in that they both have wildly divergent sects, each with a singular view of what Islam means. We hear about the Shi'a and the Sunnis as they are the two largest groups, yet even within those sects are numerous subsects. Some sects are so alienated from the larger sects that those who practice some forms of Islam would be heretics and put to death for their interpretation of Islam.

It is as unfair to say that Quakerism represents the same interpretation of Christianity as Catholicism. So too is it unfair and unwise to lump all Muslims together as a monolithic group. Imagine if the world judged all Americans by the words and actions of Bush. Some people do precisely that and those of us who are not Bush supporters feel maligned by the simplistic ignorance of those who make the accusations. It's the same with Islam.

Fundamentalist Islam is violent because Islam itself is founded on principles of violence. Before you get your panties in a bunch over that statement, I have read the Koran, studied middle eastern history, blah, blah, blah. Islam is not the only religion to speak of God as vengeful, of slaying enemies, or of enforcing moral codes with a death penalty ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," (Ex. 22:18) comes to mind). The difference is that in Islam, the fundamentalists are those in power and are a growing minority in many countries where more moderate forms of Islam are practiced.

If you want to point a finger, point two at Washington and London. The governments of both countries have, since the days of Lawrence of Arabia, supported the Saud family. The Saud family, in turn, has the authority to rule over Saudi because it receives support from the extremely fundamentalist Wahabbist sect. Few Sunni Muslims practice Wahabbism, but many think they're very pious and carry a moral authority with that piety. The Saud family is special because the two holiest sites in Islam, Mecca and Medina, are on Saudi soil and that makes the Saudis caretakers of these sites. As caretakers of such holy places, they must be seen as pious or risk losing their ruling authority to a group who is more pious. In return for the support of the Wahabbis, the Saudis give billions to Wahabbist organizations.

Most people in the Islamic countries are dreadfully poor. They have no means of support, see relatively little of their oil wealth, and have no education. As these countries have been westernized in their economies, education has become increasingly important yet there are no public education systems in most of these countries. That's where the Wahabbis come in. They fund thousands of religious schools, the famed madrasahs. At these schools boys are taught to read, write, do math, and, of course, learn the Wahabbist interpretation of the Koran and Islam. Parents send their boys to these schools well aware of what kind of religious instruction is taking place, but they feel they have little choice if they want their sons to receive any kind of education. It's very much like sending a non-Catholic child to a Catholic school just because the education is better. Some of the boys go through the madrasah and keep their original faith, but others do not and they are swayed into the fundamentalist principles of Wahabbism as they have been fed a steady stream of anti-western, pro-Wahabbist religious and political propaganda.

Wahabbist madrasahs are everywhere, even here in the United States. In many countries they act as community centers and usually have a mosque attached where the imams can preach. They dispense alms, sometimes provide food or medical care to the poor, and do other things that missionaries typically do because that's essentially what these madrasahs are: missions.

The Saudis have an uneasy relationship with the Wahabbists. The Saudi royals are vastly rich, frequently live debauched lifestyles when outside of the country, and are clearly in bed with the United States and the UK. As a result, the more the Wahabbists demand from the Saudis, the more the Saudis feel obligated to pay and where do you think Saudi gets the money from?

Our governments paint the Saudis as partners in the war on terror, great allies of long standing, etc. but the fact is they've done more to promote fundamentalist Islam than any other group in the world. The problem is we can't get rid of the Saudis. It's a case of, staying with the devil you know. American, or indeed any western forces, can't set foot on Saudi soil in any aggressive capacity. For Mecca and Medina to be in American or any western hands would provoke a true Islamic outcry as we could not imagine. It would be something like al Qaeda invading and taking over the Vatican or Muslims using the Church of the Holy Sephulcre as a latrine.

So long as the people of western nations support governments who support the Saudis, we're going to see money being funneled into fundamentalist Islam and a consequent increase in the number of Islamic fundamentalists. The question we have to answer is what else can we do to stop it? If the Saudis cut off the Wahabbis then nothing will keep the Saudis in power short of sheer military force only we can't force them.

Now, perhaps, you have an idea why Osama bin Laden, a Wahabbist, was so eager to get American forces out of Saudi as was his primary complaint against the US. He knew, as the Wahabbist leadership did, that if Americans stayed in Saudi, that the Saudis wouldn't need the Wahabbists any longer if the Americans were willing to keep the Saudis in power via military means. With Americans out of Saudi Arabia, the royal family once again depends entirely upon the Wahabbists to stay in power.

Dirty little circle isn't it?
 

SpeedoGuy

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Should I kill all Christians because of Phelps?

Yes. According to some posts here Phelp's usual appeal to hate and ignorance means all of Christendom is violent, ignorant and continually on the razor's edge of revolution and fanatical jihad toward world domination.
 

Northland

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Since perhaps the start of time people have used religion and anything else for a convenient excuse to slaughter millions of people. All it takes is being different- that alone can lead to war, or at the very least arrests, jailings, murders. Look through history- it is everywhere. Think it's only done by one side? Think again. Christians have killed for years- or has everyone forgotten the Crusades?-History of the Crusades a holy war and let's not forget this exciting chapter of history- The Christian Wars (I do not care much for the name of the website; however, the content is mostly accurate)

Ah yes! Let's not forget The Reformation! - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Reformation There are several more examples of war and hatred done in the name of religion- the sad truth is, that as long as people wish to consider themselves better than anyone else, and continue to parade this around proudly, there will be destruction, devastation and death. Have we already forgotten the death camps operated by Bosnia-Herzegovina against the Croats and the Moslems?


(and people wonder why I was too timid to admit to being an Iraqi)
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Now, perhaps, you have an idea why Osama bin Laden, a Wahabbist, was so eager to get American forces out of Saudi as was his primary complaint against the US. He knew, as the Wahabbist leadership did, that if Americans stayed in Saudi, that the Saudis wouldn't need the Wahabbists any longer if the Americans were willing to keep the Saudis in power via military means. With Americans out of Saudi Arabia, the royal family once again depends entirely upon the Wahabbists to stay in power.

Is it not really even more simple than that, Jason?
Wasn't the presence of infidel military forces in the centre of Islamic history and even geography (with Mecca and Medina both part of Saudi) an unforgiveable blemish on Muslim purity?
That's what bin Laden was saying -- and he's a purist and absolutist of the stripe that would mean those words.
 
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Perhaps I'm a bit more cynical about OBL and the Wahabbist leadership's motives. bin Laden had a good education, extensive travel in the west, he knows exactly how the privileged class of Saudis live outside the borders of the kingdom. I don't take him to be an ideologue for the sake of being an ideologue. He's more canny than that so while the ideological argument may have been the most publicly persuasive and sympathetic, I doubt it was the sole reason.

Is it not really even more simple than that, Jason?
Wasn't the presence of infidel military forces in the centre of Islamic history and even geography (with Mecca and Medina both part of Saudi) an unforgivable blemish on Muslim purity?
That's what bin Laden was saying -- and he's a purist and absolutist of the stripe that would mean those words.