Nationalism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Victoria, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria New Member

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    How does British BNP nationalism differ from Irish Sinn fein ect Nationalism

    The BNP *thankfully* evoke disgust and revulsion in the minds of most if not nearly all productive right thinking members of British society . Most of the voting public are savvy enough to realise they promote exclusionary, unhealthy , xenophobic, singular ideas of nationality / ethnicity and reject their politics as sinister and unacceptable.

    My question is how do a political party like sinn fein differ from BNP.?

    Nick Griffin is awful and in my opinion deserves to be shunned and ignored. but at worst he can be described as an Alf garnet / Archie Bunker type figure who cynically plays on the immigration fears of alienated disenfranchised communities and outside of those communities is largely a figure of mockery.

    BNP contrasted with populist sinn fein in Northern Ireland who appear to have equally sinister xenophobic leanings - and that's before the possibility is mentioned their party leaders Gerry Adams / Martin McGuinness may or may not have the blood of dead children on their hands Nick Griffin seems almost day-time-tv presenter camp and innocuous by comparison




    My question is , how do the two differ.?


    What subtly / nuance aren't I seeing that makes a party like sinn fein more acceptable than the BNP?
     
  2. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    This question came up at a branch meeting for a political party im a member of, and its interesting. I cant speak specifically about Sinn Fein, but in my opinion, the difference is in the role as opressor and opressed nationalism.

    Whilst Nationalism on its own is, in most cases, disgusting (the idea that your country is better simply because you were born there is an arrogant and baseless point of view), i would almost always support a nationalist struggle in, say, Latin America. Why? Because their nationalism is more based on Self-determination, rather than stamping prejudiced authority.


    Like i said, i cant really talk about Sinn Fein, but thats my simple view on English/Irish Nationalism.
     
    #2 D_Andreas Sukov, Aug 8, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2010
  3. Jason

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    A fascinating question!

    My thought is that the differences have less to do with substance and more to do with PR and popular perception.

    The links between Sinn Fein and the terrorist murderers of the IRA are asserted by both the UK and the Irish governments. The UK government says they are "inextricably linked" while the Irish government says they are "two sides of the same coin". Direct involvement of leading Sinn Fein politicians with IRA terrorism is strongly suspected. It seems clear that Sinn Fein have significant influence over the IRA - and perhaps over the active terrorist group Continuity IRA, with whom they have recently had discussions. The reality is that Sinn Fein should be beyond the pale, cast into outer darkness. That anyone in the UK or Ireland could actually vote for them seems about as likely as the people of Manhattan voting for Al-Qaida. Yet in Sinn Fein we have a situation - I think without parallel in Europe - where a group which until recently supported terrorism currently returns MPs to the UK national parliament and is in the coaltion government of Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein have managed the PR to the extent that they are perceived as putting forward a legitimate view on Irish nationalism, and are even perceived in a romantic fashion as victims leading a legitimate struggle, even when that struggle involves the terrorist murder of the innocent in their own communities. While Sinn Fein's PR has been good, Noraid has managed to go one better. Noraid funded the IRA and exported Libyan terrorism and yet has managed to present itself worldwide as a legitimate fund-raising body in support of the ideal of a united Ireland.

    BNP is a completely different kettle of fish. It has a horrible set of views and I hope no-one supports them. Some of their members have been linked with violence - the idea that many are thugs does seem tenable - but the violence is seemingly not BNP orchestrated and is certainly not terrorism. And as far as their views go we're surely back to the old cliche that while we might not like them we have to respect their right to free speech and to put forward their views (within the law). Yet the reality is that BNP is totally villified by all politicians and by the media. They have lost the PR battle.

    Sinn Fein have done very well indeed in the PR stakes. Perhaps it is easier to present a positive spin for ideas around Irish nationalism. By contrast BNP have done very badly in the PR stakes. The concern is that something as minor as a PR company doing a root and branch makeover of BNP could make them suddenly "respectable". If we get AV we can presumably expect that the next parliament will have a substantial BNP contingent.
     
  4. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    Leading BNP members have actually been linked to the EDL which has caused mass violence against immigrants and other non-white members of society.

    The English Defence League are the street-wing to the BNP's Political wing in their fascist movement.

    Oh. Several BNP members have been linked to terrorism. There was the Soho nail bomber, whose name i forget, and several others.

    Lets not forget the "Aryan strike force". Father and son, with two others who were arrested with enough Ricen to take out a small office. Were they BNP members? I dont know, but they were of their ilk.
     
    #4 D_Andreas Sukov, Aug 8, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2010
  5. Jason

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    The BNP is a horrible group. Yet it remains the case that there is nothing comparable to Sinn Fein's long-term and deep relationship with the IRA, such that many politicians of all parties were in the habbit of calling them "Sinn Fein-IRA".

    EDL is a very recent group (is it as recent as last year?) and there is nothing comparable between BNP and EDL to the Sinn Fein-IRA link. Individual BNP members have certainy been guilty of crimes of violence, but it isn't an official part of BNP policy, and BNP do condemn it (in contrast with Sinn Fein). BNP are fundamentally political in their stance - however warped and wrong their politics. Sinn Fein were until very recently fundamentally terrorist in stance leading a private "army" to murder civilians in Northern Ireland, England and Germany. They are both horrible groups, but there is a difference. Sinn Fein have managed to wrap themselves in shamrock-tinted nationalism and present themselves as warm and cuddly terrorist murderers while BNP have failed to present a good PR image.
     
  6. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    Im not disagreeing with you. Simply stating facts. I still think they are as bad as eachother.

    I have friends and family who may not vote BNP, but have put some praise their way (as a joke or otherwise) to which i have to reply, a vote for the BNP is a vote to have me shot.
     
  7. luka82

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    I know little about Irish and English nationalism but i can talk about the one in the Balkans and it`s just shit. Thousands of dead, refugees, burnt to the ground cities and all that in the name of nationalism is shit. The biggest parodox was a semantic one. In Serbian and Croatian languages NATIONALISM and PATRIOTISM are not synonyms. Nationalism is a fanatical devotion-you are better than everyone else, and patriotism represents loyalty and love for your country (talking about Serbo-Croatian linguistics). But in time they meant the same. So a PATRIOT is a person who would justify a genocide and everyone else who thought differently would become a traitor!
     
  8. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Unfortunately what we are getting is Internationalism.

    Why is Sinn Fein different to the BNP - because the British invaded & occupied most of Ireland, caused millions of deaths, through war, subjugation,& deliberate starvation policies; denied them the freedom of their own language, religion, & any representation in Parliament.

    Blood is all over each of the main parties hands for this throughout history.

    The BNP, unlike the Labour, Tory & Liberal governments has never killed anyone - shock horror. There are plenty of vicious villains in prison who have voted for any party!

    Nationalist movements arose all over the world for one reason - among them people like Gandhi, George Washington & Hitler.

    The common reason wasn't for self-determination as a principle, but because the indigenous inhabitants thought(&were) that they were being screwed by foreigners, & not getting an equitable return (I think even Peru recently had a Japanese immigrant overclass).

    Ireland was invaded. Barely any other part of the British empire was.

    With the doublespeak of today, we are meant to regard immigrants to the UK as entreprenurial, bringing new ideas & culture, & working smarter. Which is exactly what the empire builders of the 19th Century did, but that is now taught as if it was totally bad.

    Go back 300 years & you'll find that only a small percentage of countries in existence now, existed then. India didn't. Pakistan didn't. The USA & Canada didn't.

    Gandhi wanted the "British out", no more than the Nazis wanted the "Jewish" out. Of course his methods were better, but still xenophobic! India wasn't invaded. Gandhi certainly took advantage of his Empire & studied in England & travelled the empire to prosper.

    Do we have good xenophobia, & bad xenophobia then? I think we do.

    I think that Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales et al. are still riding high on stoking it, with plaudits naturally from the left - who then decry the BNP. Hahahahhaha.

    Ownership of natural resources, nationalisation, & preference to indegenous peoples. It's identical to the BNP manifesto, who are socialy right wing, economically so far to the left they're in bed with Bob Crowe!

    The supreme irony of the Internationalist's, is that their ultimate aim is a One World Government, where any kind of dissent won't be tolerated at all, & homogenity will be the order of the day.

    Nationalism, is just an advancement on localism. People want measures that affect them to be dealt with people in the same area, & who are accountable to them.

    The more remote & unaccountable decision makers are from the areas their policies affect, the less sensitivity they will have to their needs, & the more communities with a shared heritage will respond by banding together to protect themselves.

    The British Empire removed this problem for a long time with a strategy of "divide & rule", introducing indigenous "martial races" to act as a buffer.

    The Internationalist's achieve the same by encouraging mass migration, & Orwellian type phony wars, threats & terrorists to preserve a climate & state of fear.

    SinnFein just want their bloody country back - I suggest you look up the history of Ireland from the Norman's, to the Plantations, Cromwell, to the Great Starvation, & to the final liberation of 3/4 of the country.

    The BNP are just a manifestation of the despair & remoteness I mentioned earlier. We have elected politicians who are there to put their constituents priorities first. We committed the largest transfer from the poor to the rich ever, by bailing out the banks, & they're still not investing our money at home, but abroad! Even Nick Clegg has now failed on that score in Sheffield. How else does one protest?

    Having lived in several countries, & had long visits in many in all continents, my experience is that the UK is the least racist country that has any number of immigrants.

    But that isn't what you're ever likely to hear!
     
    #8 B_crackoff, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  9. TomCat84

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    Did I just read you right? You're equating Gandhi's beliefs with Hitler's? Seriously?
     
  10. Jason

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    There is so much wrong with Crackoff's post that I'm going to do no more than register my dislike. At best he is a victim of mythologised history - yet parts of his post are exceptionally distasteful.

    Curiously Crackoff's post has indicated how Sinn Fein has managed to get good PR. Crackoff has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. They present themselves as freedom fighters for "the harp that once through Tara's Hall" - for the glorious Celtic Irish heritage. Yet Sinn Fein-IRA have murdered thousands through their terrorist atrocities, most of them civilians. Their indescriminate bombs have additionally injured and maimed tens of thousands. They carry out - still - a campaign of terror in the poor housing estates of Northern Ireland extorting funds through threats (their speciallity is a bullet in the knee cap) and running the drugs racket. They are evil men and women whose hatred and warped nationalism has led them into violence. They shame Ireland; they shame humanity.
     
  11. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Hey, if Glenn Beck can link empathy to Hitler... :biggrin:
     
  12. Bbucko

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    Growing up in Boston, with its enormous Irish-American population and heritage (though I'm WASP, not Irish a bit), I probably learned more about the Sinn Fein/IRA connection (and its apologists) than many Americans, just like an Anglo from Miami would have greater familiarity with Cuba than I did.

    As it was reported over the years often enough to quote verbatim (the verbiage never varied): Sinn Fein is the "political arm" of the IRA. There was a direct equivalence and equal culpability for the terrorist violence committed by the IRA. FWIW, the IRA was also always referred to as a terrorist organization, not as nationalists or, gawd forbid, "freedom fighters" :rolleyes:

    However, and it's a huge however, both Sinn Fein and the IRA received their largest single source of financial support from a neighborhood in Boston called Southie (South Boston, not the affluent and very gay South End). This was a well-established fact and published by both of Boston's daily newspapers, though most often, and in a supportive (or at least empathetic context) by the Murdoch-owned tabloid Boston Herald.

    Throughout the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, Southie led in the struggle against modernizing Boston and making it more socially (and politically) progressive; their stoning of school buses carrying minority kids during the desegregation of Boston public schools in the 70s was well known and publicized internationally, it was also organized, supported and encouraged by leaders within Southie's own community, such as Louise Day Hicks. It was Southie's St Patrick's Day parade's ban on GLBT participants that ultimately made it to the Supreme Court. To a degree chiefly of their own making, Southie was synonymous reactionary bigotry.

    They also claimed to be "more Irish" than anyone from Ireland opposed to the IRA, or who applauded inclusion of GLBT groups at Dublin's St Patrick's day parade. They also supported what was termed the Irish Mob, which was largely run by the Bulger Brothers, one eventually sent to prison, the other a long-time Speaker of Massachusetts' House of Representatives!

    To a degree that is difficult for anyone from the outside to understand, Southie, while an American neighborhood in an American city (widely known for its progressive ideology), saw itself as the torch-bearer for Irish nationalism in a world gone soft and lazy (as well as non-white and increasingly gay).

    It's only been since I left Boston in 1999 that Southie slowly became gentrified, owing to its proximity to downtown Boston and the relative affordability of its housing, poor though much of it is (in my house growing up, "Southie" was synonymous with "slum"). I hear stories now about how much it's changed yet find it hard to fathom.

    My thoughts precisely.
     
    #12 Bbucko, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  13. BIG_DAVE

    BIG_DAVE Active Member

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    Men (yes men, putting female as you gender STILL hasn't fooled anyone) like you Ignorant to your country's wrong doings are the reason why you can't see the difference.

    So we'll look at the origins of how the IRA came about from the 60's onwards and the events that led up to them and I'll be able to answer the question for you with this post by the time line of events of what led the IRA as you know them into exisitance.


    For people who don't know a great deal about the situation a loyalist, unionist or protestant is british. Loyal(to the crown) Unionist(is for the british Union) and are by and large protestant although religon has absolutly NOTHING to do with the confilct no matter what you've heard, take it from someone who grew up in this war.

    someone who's Nationalist, republican or catholic is Irish Nationalist (of Irish race) Republican (wants to be part of the Irish republic rather than an american republican) and is a catholic again not that it matters.





    June 1966 loyalist paramilitaries backed by a police force in NI called the b specials murdered 2 catholics one of whom for owning a shop on the loyalist shankill road in east belfast.

    spurred on by almost daily sectarian attacks on Irish nationals by Unionist mobs and police in british occupied Ireland and inspired by the brave Martin Luther King the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was set up which was which borrowed the language and symbolism of the same movement fronted by MLK in the southern states of america to combat the same situation. this groups wiki here

    These marches had the slogan "one man one vote" as unionists in power at the time would have one vote per building. This ment Loyalists with several buisiness adresses could vote several more times than say the average Irish national who were at that time up to 10 people in a household in a sure fire way of keeping the Irish in NI out of power.

    the next part is copied and pasted from wiki...

    Initially, Terence O'Neill, the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, reacted favourably to this moderate-seeming campaign and promised reforms of Northern Ireland. However, he was opposed by many unionists, including William Craig and Ian Paisley, who accused him of being a "sell-out". Some unionists immediately mistrusted the NICRA, seeing it as an IRA* "Trojan horse".


    Violence broke out at several civil rights marches when Protestant loyalists attacked civil rights demonstrators with clubs. The Royal Ulster Constabulary, almost entirely Protestant, was widely viewed by nationalists as supporting the loyalists and of allowing the violence to occur. On 5 October 1968, a civil rights march in Derry was banned by the Northern Ireland government. When civil rights activists defied the ban, they were attacked by the RUC, leading to three days of rioting. On 4 January 1969, a People's Democracy march between Belfast and Derry through Catholic and Protestant areas was repeatedly attacked by loyalists and off-duty police. At Burntollet Bridge it was ambushed by ~200 loyalists armed with iron bars, bricks and bottles. The police did little to protect the march. Subsequently, barricades were erected in nationalist areas of Belfast and Derry to prevent police incursions. Many regard these events as the beginning of the Troubles.

    *The IRA at that time were the IRA of micheal collins day, They had succesfully ran a military campaign to rid Ireland of british rule. but only achieved freedom in 26 of 32 counties of Ireland. this IRA had split into those looking at the divide in the country as a stepping stone onto overall freedom from the british in Ireland and some who saw it as unaceptable due to what would happen to the remaining Irish left in the 6 counites There was a brief civil war in Ireland and the Irish defence forces(now) won and the IRA left over were to assume freedom of Ireland through peaceful routes. The remaining 6 counties to be reviewed at a later date were still under british rule while a board that was ment to be set up between british and Irish goverments organised the handover of the remaining 6 counties. This never happened as the british went back on thier word.


    In 1969 riots happened in county Derry known as "The battle of the bogside" in where the police forced a Loyalist march through a Irish area celebrating a battle between british and Irish where the Irish lost hundreds of years before. This march seen as bragging at an already oppressed community on top of the banning of peaceful marches where Irishmen were asking for basic civil rights ontop of all the tension in the area at that time caused 4 days of rioting in which sparked severe riots across the 6 counites. With this an Irish 9 year old boy was killed by a bullet fired by the brits heavy machine guns as he lay in his bed as well as the deployment of the british army as the police could no longer keep control of the situation without being impartial.

    A total of 8 people had been killed and as british loyalists simular to the Ku Klux Klan in the states burned nationalists out of house and home over 1500 Irish familys had thier houses burnt to the ground.


    The Irish people in the 6 counties of british occupied Ireland were alone and had no one to protect them, The IRA who at that point where almost non existant within the community anymore due to being commited to peaceful ways to achive an end to british rule in Ireland were blasted by graffiti on wall's which said "IRA - I Ran Away".

    With this the IRA split into two fractions the Offical IRA and the Provisional IRA (with sinn fein as the political wing) as the british Army had shown they too were not intrested in policing NI in a unbiased manner and the PIRA were ready to take up arms again to first and formost to protect the community against the KKKesque mobs and as a secondary to free Ireland once and for all.

    To combat the uprising of the army answering the call of it's people(the PIRA) in 1970 the british the Army imposed a 76 hour curfew on the Falls road area of west belfast (West Belfast being of mainly Irish communites) wiki link here In doing this the british army killed 4 civillians.

    Another move by the british was to intern without trial where over 350 people were arrested who were deemed to be involved in the trouble between communites (as it was put to the public rioting between Irish and british communites) Not one person of over the inital 350 people was british. Not a single one.

    In total over the next few years over 1,900 people were interned 107 of which were british (now seen as back then the Irish in the 6 counties were in the minority by 35% to 65% of the population this just shows how truely disgusting things were back then). The Irish nationals were tortured when in prison and the majority of which were not even activists. However upon leaving prison soon were.



    After the British had outlawed the Irish marches for basic civil rights A new march was started by a british man for human rights and an end to intermen without trial, this ended up with elite british soldiers being deployed and shooting 14 people dead all but one in the back as they ran away and some even on the floor as they lay dying. This later became known as bloody sunday. This was not the first time the british army had open fire on unarmed protestors a few days before hand the same regiment had killed 11 Irish people in a simular situation.

    With this the PIRA had now the full support of the Irish community in not only the 6 counties but all 32 counties of Ireland and across the world.

    Now with the full support of the Irish the IRA raged full scale war against the british, which saw hundreds killed. The british communites seen the new PIRA looking likely to ride NI of british rule formed the Loyalist paramilitary groups the UDA (ulster defense association) and LVF (loyalist defence force) these groups again much like the KKK would kidnap Irishmen at random and mutilate them one such example being an irishman who was kidnapped, hung from his feet, castrated and skinned alive as he bled to death, over 30 people were murdered in such a manner by these and hundreds more in racist sectarian killians.

    The loyalist paramilitarys also were in collusion with the state on many occasions. The police and Army were leaking information against Irish men and women they were after and in 2004 documents that were declassified showed that this members of loyalist groups were also in the army patrolling the streets and would supply weapons to other loyalists used to kill Irish civillians.

    In 1972 the british goverment suspended unionist run stormont (northern Irelands whitehouse if you will) and had direct rule from london. Unionists and nationalist's were told they should enter into power sharing and the British in NI were so intent on making sure the Irish had no say in "thier country" as they saw it, they first off went on strike cutting off water and electricty until the Idea was abandoned and while on strike set off bombs killing 33 people mainly young Irish women aged 5 months upwards. This is the single worst atrocity in the whole of the troubles regarding people killed, not the omagh bombing of 1998 as reported in the british news to be the biggest loss of life in a single incident.

    Talks between the british and Irish goverments went on for years while the fighting continued until eventually the british unionists in NI had no choice but to share power in NI with the race they hate so much and in 1998 the wheels of motion were put into play and in 2007 the two sides went into power at stormont.


    So after reading all this you can see that sinn fein the political wing of the army made nessarcary by the acts of the british managed to negotiate peace with a race full of hate for the Irish people and look past the hatred to find peace where as nick griffin and the BNP represent the very type of british person intent on keeping another race oppressed.


    If you can't see the difference now then your as ignorant as any follower of the BNP if not worse for just openly ignoring the facts.


    I'll fix the spelling at some point I'm just tired now is all.
     
  14. BIG_DAVE

    BIG_DAVE Active Member

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    The IRA were at war of course there will be civillian casulties but here a bit of food for thought, The british Army killed more civilians than IRA bombs did.

    I bet you didn't know that wee fact.


    As for drugs? No IRA man has ever been convicted of drugs or extortion and as for the knee cappings? thepolice will not come into certian area's after years and years of proving themselves untrust worthy. So the IRA kneecap drug dealers, joy riders, thives and armed robbers in the worst cases. I've seen lads tied to lamposts in the center of town with signs round their necks saying "I stole from my own people" I know for a fact the humilition alone dettered him for robbing peoples houses again. And if he did after that by all means put a hole in his knee.

    The fact of the matter is we as the community put the power into the IRA's hands to police our community this brit propaganda of making the IRA out to be bad men's bullshit. They do thier job well and thats through my knowledge of how they act in MY city, not what I read in the paper.
     
  15. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    To put Cahvez et al with the BNP is a disgrace (amongst others, however this one hasnt been touched). BNP policies are not left. Nationalisation of industry, into the hands of the Government isn't the left crackoff talks about.
     
  16. Jason

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    Nice post Bbucko.

    Sinn Fein are a political group with a marxist ideology seeking the unification of Ireland despite the wishes of the people of Ireland north and south.

    In a referendum the people of the Irish Republic have overwhelmingly rejected their historic claim to the six counties of Northern Ireland (was it 98%? CBA googling - it was huge). In Northern Ireland support for Sinn Fein runs at about 25%. There is no mandate for their agenda. The peace process in Northern Ireland has accepted that there are two traditions in Northern Ireland, Irish and Ulster Scots, and there is agreement to work with this.

    The concept of Sinn Fein as freedom fighters fighting for a free and unified Ireland is dangerous crankiness.

    In recent years Sinn Fein politicians have moved away fro terrorism and now have real political power within the Northern Ireland assembly. The IRA has stopped killing people. The problem is that there are IRA splinter groups including Continuity IRA which are still killing people - bombs found in London/Derry last week and Cookstown today. And it is Sinn Fein who are negotiating with Continuity IRA. Now Continuity IRA does NOT have Sinn Fein as their political wing, but there are connections nonetheless.

    And yes there are unionist terror groups too (though without political representation), and yes the British army has been reponsible for deaths in Northern Ireland. But none of this can ever be a justification for the terrorist murders and atrocities committed by IRA and now by the likes of Continuity IRA. The sadness is that Sinn Fein (unlike unionist terror groups) get significant electoral support, and have a history of substantial financial support from the USA - until 9/11 changed attitudes the USA permitted the IRA to raise funds in the USA, mainly Boston.

    Sinn Fein/IRA have done so well in the PR battle, as witness some of the posts above which seem to support them. By contrast BNP have done badly - just about everyone agrees they are a horrible bunch. The real threat within UK nationalism is if the BNP manage to get their PR right. Sinn Fein is in the end confined to Northern Ireland while BNP is UK-wide (possibly except NI).

    Other nationalist groups in the UK have worked very hard to ensure that they ditch their extremist elements. Thus Plaid Cymru have nothing to do with the nut cases that burnt homes in Wales in the 1980s and 1990s. SNP ditched their nutcase wing (Siol nan Gaidheal). The English Democrats seem pretty benign. In Cornwall there is effort being put into creating a nationalist political drive. Probably if you look hard enough there is a Rutlandshire Independence Party somewhere. Nationalism is a potential cause for concern.
     
  17. Gnobe

    Gnobe Member

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    Jason, could you please link me this poll? Polls have consistently shown that actually the majority of people in the republic do want a united Ireland. Infact I think every official poll since times began have shown that the majority in the Republic still support it. It's just not a top priority anymore. Although you are correct people in Republic of Ireland would refuse a united Ireland run by Sinn Fein, but that's different.

    Wiki does a good article on it,
    United Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    #17 Gnobe, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  18. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    No, you've made that up yourself, but you really should read what Gandhi said about Hitler. He basically said that Britain should lie down & let the Nazi jackboots stomp across the green & pleasant land.

    To the OP Ukrainians, Georgians, Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Moldovans, Krzygs, Uzbeckis - the list is endless of all these evil Nationalists isn't it? And those bastard Chechnyans too!

    Gandhi certainly was a Nationalist as well. And you can find his racist views on "Kaffirs" & his own variation on "untermenschen" anywhere outside of gushing "liberal" books. He may well have changed his mind IN HIS 60's, but that wouldn't help contemporary figures with similar attitudes today, though I know of none.

    Do you know what he encouraged in his cult camps, & his predilection for sleeping naked for decades with nude underage girls to test his raging libido?

    When you have read extensive historically documented records instead of watching a fawning epic, & listening to versions of history heavily censored in order to excise the scandals, then you may be able to judge such a man.

    Personally, I'm a fan! There's more often a deep, considered, measured intelligence, than not: but if he was doing now what he did then, he'd be ripped to shreds. Especially as an antiZionist ! (it's fascinating reading correspondence from the past, & realizing how little has changed, & a nice aside on the Communist origin of Hate Laws.)Gandhi, The Jews And Palestine

    As for Sinn Fein, murdering people, just have a look at the tabulation for "the troubles"; of deaths from Northern Ireland, more Catholics than Protestants died. CAIN: Sutton Index of Deaths
    Why not call for the heads of the Unionist parties?

    The violence only kicked off again in 1969 because of outright discrimination against Catholics, & as I've said, I think the kill ratio over 700+ years is 100 Irish dead to 1 Briton!

    And as for the bombings of the city in the 90's - you'd be very naive to think that that was anything other than economic development - paid targets, coded calls, & 3 entirely avoidable deaths, particularly those poor newsagents at South Quay sent back by the police.

    Other than Ireland, I don't know of any country in the world that was occupied for that long, & its inhabitants mercilessly harried, enslaved & slaughtered. Anyone?

    That crooked hypocrite Lloyd-George can rot in hell for what he did to the Irish - but as he found, you have to recognise support, & deal with it to create peace, which is what Blair also did with Adams & Paisley.

    Oh, & was it a £40 Billion sweetener as well:smile:. Kaboom time became Boomtown in Ulster.

    So Protestant British Nationalism is good in Ulster, & SNP Scottish Nationalism is good,but BNP British Isles Nationalism, & SF Irish Nationalism is bad. Kosovan Nationalism is also good (pretext for UN intervention - Tony Blair/Bill Clinton 1998 " 100,000 Kosovans are missing presumed dead, we must stop the genocide - 2001 The UN rules no genocide - 2008 reveals 2,500 dead, shared equally by both sides - many killed by UN bombs!).

    Of course Euronationalism (via federation) is being promoted to death, without recourse to a national democratic vote, so spare us from any petty gripes about minor parties when there is more corruption & death from the governments of today.
     
    #18 B_crackoff, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  19. luka82

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    Cracoff, maybe we should analize every state separately,
    or at least make 3 groups here-Ex SSSR, Ex Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. I don`t believe they are comparable much. Chezchs and Slovaks seperated peacefully. In every Ex SSSR republic you mentioned Russians have a huge part in the ethnicity. And in Ex Yu there was a civil war. It`s like what the West says about Kosovo-It`s a case on it`s own.
     
    #19 luka82, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  20. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    Why separate at all apart from Nationalistic sentiment?

    The Kosovan intervention, yet another phony war as the UN itself states, was never about genocide, but Internationalism, & the Serbs, especially Milosevic's refusal to play ball with the EU & US over access to their markets, & the longterm eventual break up of each country into regional authorities (as is quite clearly stated as an EU aim in order to eliminate Nationalism & gain Federalism) so they eventually forced regime change.

    I think US Steel bought Sartid Steel, for about $23, despite $1BN being invested in it, & other preferential Nato countries got a nice wedge of raw material, market penetration & capital investment too! THIS IS WHAT WARS ARE ABOUT!

    The KLA was being funded & trained by British Muslim groups, Al Qaeda, & allegedly Bin Laden.

    Strange bedfellows for the US to jump into bed with.

    Ooh the duplicity.

    HL Mencken
    For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false.

    Beware those who complain about nationalism - they're only trying to plant their corporate flag in your ass!
     
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