Nationalism

[luka82]

Why separate at all apart from Nationalistic sentiment?

Because in some ex SSSR republics Russians are still the majority. I remember a data, it may be old that the majority of Kazakh people are russians, around 60%. I wouldn`t say that the SSSR broke up because of the nationalistic element. Some would argue that it has to do with a power trip of the West, I would say-it`s oil and enegetics in general.

And mate, BRAVO on the Serbian economics!!!! :smlove2:

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Sinn Fein are a political group with a marxist ideology seeking the unification of Ireland despite the wishes of the people of Ireland north and south.

In a referendum the people of the Irish Republic have overwhelmingly rejected their historic claim to the six counties of Northern Ireland (was it 98%? CBA googling - it was huge). In Northern Ireland support for Sinn Fein runs at about 25%. There is no mandate for their agenda. The peace process in Northern Ireland has accepted that there are two traditions in Northern Ireland, Irish and Ulster Scots, and there is agreement to work with this.

The referendum you talk about was held in 1973 and if you read my post you'd realise that the Irish people in the 6 counties were not given the oppitunity to vote.

The actual figures I dug up from google were this Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum, 1973 Yes or no Votes Percentage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yes_check.svghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/14px-Yes_check.svg.png Yes 591,820 98.9% No 6,463 1.1% Total votes 598,283 100.00% Voter turnout 58.1%Not a single person reading that with the facts I've given them WITH SORCES would believe that the voting there was just. This is why over a hundred thousand Irish as well as british people turned up to march for a right to vote.

A fact you may want to look at is this from the bbc website.. here

Full Northern Ireland Scoreboard

Party Seats Gain Loss Net Votes %
+/-%
Democratic Unionist Party 8 0 1 -1 168,216 25.0
-8.7
Sinn Fein 5 0 0 0 171,942 25.5
+1.2
Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 0 0 0 110,970 16.5
-1.0
Alliance Party 1 1 0 +1 42,762 6.3
+2.4
Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force 0 0 1 -1 102,361 15.2
-2.6
Traditional Unionist Voice 0 0 0 0 26,300 3.9


Green 0 0 0 0 3,542 0.5




Turnout 673,871 57.6
-7.8
After 18 of 18 seats declared.



Now look at the fact more people voted now than in 73 and ever so slightly less of the population turned out. Do you really believe that original vote in 73 was so accurate?


It shows Sinn Fein had more votes than any other party but the british have dived thier seats up in such a manner they have more. Still it's hardly a fair reflection on the 6 counties is it?


The concept of Sinn Fein as freedom fighters fighting for a free and unified Ireland is dangerous crankiness.

Why cuz you don't agree with it?

In recent years Sinn Fein politicians have moved away fro terrorism and now have real political power within the Northern Ireland assembly. The IRA has stopped killing people.

Sinn Fein have taken the route of the Official IRA the group they were once part of (due to a split making them into the PIRA). Sinn Fein and the PIRA Army Council believe that a peaceful strategy can be taken rather than a military one. What is terrorism by the way? I saw many acts of it growing up in Armagh mainly by british soliders. One of which was having my front teeth knocked out by the butt of a brits rifle as an 8 year old child. They shot dead civillians, colluded with loyalist paramilitary death squads and supplied them with explosives, guns and ammunition. Stop trying to make the IRA out to be the bad bunch of bastards who just started killing people. The british have been committing terrorist acts in Ireland for over 800 years.

The problem is that there are IRA splinter groups including Continuity IRA which are still killing people - bombs found in London/Derry last week and Cookstown today. And it is Sinn Fein who are negotiating with Continuity IRA. Now Continuity IRA does NOT have Sinn Fein as their political wing, but there are connections nonetheless.

The CIRA's Political wing is Republican Sinn Fein (RSF) and they openly told SF to go and fuck themselves as did the RIRA's political wing (32 county sovereignty movement, 32sm) when sinn fein (as the official IRA did in the 60's/70's) to inform to the police.

The fact of the matter is the police are still not working in an unbiased manner. Granted not to the extent they were in the 60's and 70's but they were still able to stand by and watch the deaths of kevin McDaid (who was kicked to death by a loyalist/racist gang infront of his family as well as watching a Irish pregnant woman be stamped on and his wife have her nose broken at the same time) and another fella who's name I will dig up.

And yes there are unionist terror groups too (though without political representation), and yes the British army has been reponsible for deaths in Northern Ireland.

Why is it the British Army have been responsible for deaths yet the IRA commit terrorist murders? Look at the facts in this one example, British para troopers open fire on civil rights demonstraters, Now they are asking for CIVIL RIGHTS to which as human beings they are entiteled too. British para troopers respond by SHOOTING UNARMED CIVILLIANS IN THE BACK AS THEY RAN AWAY FROM THE GUN FIRE. They killed 14 unarmed civillians 13 shot dead at the scene one later died. Thats one example now

The IRA plant a bomb for a group of para's heavily armed well trained elite soldiers and kill 18 of them.

To think that a action will have no reaction is stupid, the british unknowingly picked how they wanted the war in NI to be fought with countless acts of sheer bloody terrorist murders they committed on Irish civillians. And to say the IRA dis this and that is a cop out, how can you not look at the facts and realise the IRA's acts were the reactions of an oppressed race.


But none of this can ever be a justification for the terrorist murders and atrocities committed by IRA and now by the likes of Continuity IRA. The sadness is that Sinn Fein (unlike unionist terror groups) get significant electoral support, and have a history of substantial financial support from the USA - until 9/11 changed attitudes the USA permitted the IRA to raise funds in the USA, mainly Boston.


The fact of the matter is Sinn Fein had to wade through rivers of blood, mostly of thier own to have thier god given right to have a voice of thier own heard. For 800 years the Irish people were butched and burned out of thier homes by racist british mobs. This still goes on to this day albeit not to the same extent.


What you should ask yourself is why did it take over 30 years for the british to go into goverment with the Irish people. You clearly did not read my last post so I will quote myself and ask you to see if you can provide an answer for what your people did.

"In 1972 the british goverment suspended unionist run stormont (northern Irelands whitehouse if you will) and had direct rule from london. Unionists and nationalist's were told they should enter into power sharing and the British in NI were so intent on making sure the Irish had no say in "thier country" as they saw it, they first off went on strike cutting off water and electricty until the Idea was abandoned and while on strike set off bombs killing 33 people mainly young Irish women aged 5 months upwards. This is the single worst atrocity in the whole of the troubles regarding people killed, not the omagh bombing of 1998 as reported in the british news to be the biggest loss of life in a single incident."

Please I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.


Sinn Fein/IRA have done so well in the PR battle, as witness some of the posts above which seem to support them. By contrast BNP have done badly - just about everyone agrees they are a horrible bunch. The real threat within UK nationalism is if the BNP manage to get their PR right. Sinn Fein is in the end confined to Northern Ireland while BNP is UK-wide (possibly except NI).
You never looked at single fact I gave you, your ignorance is truly outstanding. You saw an argument for sinn fein and abuptly disregarded anything in it as a "pro IRA post"

Ignorant fools like you are the very reason why the troubles went on as long as they did, you've your head so far up your arse as to whats going on you put off what could be solved 40 or even 50 years ago.


Other nationalist groups in the UK have worked very hard to ensure that they ditch their extremist elements. Thus Plaid Cymru have nothing to do with the nut cases that burnt homes in Wales in the 1980s and 1990s. SNP ditched their nutcase wing (Siol nan Gaidheal). The English Democrats seem pretty benign. In Cornwall there is effort being put into creating a nationalist political drive. Probably if you look hard enough there is a Rutlandshire Independence Party somewhere. Nationalism is a potential cause for concern.


I don't know enough of these groups to comment on them but the BNP have daily support growing for them in NI and it's in the loyalist community.

But then against we've been used to dealing with british extremists for decades so wether it's the BNP,Orange Order or the run of the mill Glasgow Rangers fan it's not a new phenomonon for us.


In this post you have many questions to answer I look forward to your reply.

 

[Victoria]

Thank you Jason , Lemon.. Bbucko.

I have a very low tolerance threshold for unexamined harpism .
unfortunately as daves posts seemed to amount to this and lacked any real arguement / explanation / criticism. after two lines of reading i glazed over and scrolled past.

Anyway , I agree with jason .
i think the only real difference is pr.
Their politics - regardless of the climate in which they rose to prominence is worrying and should be unacceptable in modern Europe.

This is something - if dave is representative of the average sf voter- Northern Ireland will have to learn the hard way i suspect.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Thank you Jason , Lemon.. Bbucko.

I have a very low tolerance threshold for unexamined harpism .
unfortunately as daves posts seemed to amount to this and lacked any real arguement / explanation / criticism. after two lines of reading i glazed over and scrolled past.

Anyway , I agree with jason .
i think the only real difference is pr.
Their politics - regardless of the climate in which they rose to prominence is worrying and should be unacceptable in modern Europe.

This is something - if dave is representative of the average sf voter- Northern Ireland will have to learn the hard way i suspect.

My posts contained facts with sources which you cannot argue so using racism at me just shows how ignorant and small minded you are.

Much like the average member of the BNP.


If your not going to debate why put the question up?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

No, you've made that up yourself, but you really should read what Gandhi said about Hitler. He basically said that Britain should lie down & let the Nazi jackboots stomp across the green & pleasant land.

To the OP Ukrainians, Georgians, Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Moldovans, Krzygs, Uzbeckis - the list is endless of all these evil Nationalists isn't it? And those bastard Chechnyans too!

Gandhi certainly was a Nationalist as well. And you can find his racist views on "Kaffirs" & his own variation on "untermenschen" anywhere outside of gushing "liberal" books. He may well have changed his mind IN HIS 60's, but that wouldn't help contemporary figures with similar attitudes today, though I know of none.

Do you know what he encouraged in his cult camps, & his predilection for sleeping naked for decades with nude underage girls to test his raging libido?

When you have read extensive historically documented records instead of watching a fawning epic, & listening to versions of history heavily censored in order to excise the scandals, then you may be able to judge such a man.

Personally, I'm a fan! There's more often a deep, considered, measured intelligence, than not: but if he was doing now what he did then, he'd be ripped to shreds. Especially as an antiZionist ! (it's fascinating reading correspondence from the past, & realizing how little has changed, & a nice aside on the Communist origin of Hate Laws.)Gandhi, The Jews And Palestine

As for Sinn Fein, murdering people, just have a look at the tabulation for "the troubles"; of deaths from Northern Ireland, more Catholics than Protestants died. CAIN: Sutton Index of Deaths
Why not call for the heads of the Unionist parties?

The violence only kicked off again in 1969 because of outright discrimination against Catholics, & as I've said, I think the kill ratio over 700+ years is 100 Irish dead to 1 Briton!

And as for the bombings of the city in the 90's - you'd be very naive to think that that was anything other than economic development - paid targets, coded calls, & 3 entirely avoidable deaths, particularly those poor newsagents at South Quay sent back by the police.

Other than Ireland, I don't know of any country in the world that was occupied for that long, & its inhabitants mercilessly harried, enslaved & slaughtered. Anyone?

That crooked hypocrite Lloyd-George can rot in hell for what he did to the Irish - but as he found, you have to recognise support, & deal with it to create peace, which is what Blair also did with Adams & Paisley.

Oh, & was it a £40 Billion sweetener as well:smile:. Kaboom time became Boomtown in Ulster.

So Protestant British Nationalism is good in Ulster, & SNP Scottish Nationalism is good,but BNP British Isles Nationalism, & SF Irish Nationalism is bad. Kosovan Nationalism is also good (pretext for UN intervention - Tony Blair/Bill Clinton 1998 " 100,000 Kosovans are missing presumed dead, we must stop the genocide - 2001 The UN rules no genocide - 2008 reveals 2,500 dead, shared equally by both sides - many killed by UN bombs!).

Of course Euronationalism (via federation) is being promoted to death, without recourse to a national democratic vote, so spare us from any petty gripes about minor parties when there is more corruption & death from the governments of today.

Excellent post. It seems that the bashing the IRA/Sinn fein have had in the british media over the years has twisted the public's opinion so much they're no longer able to think for themselves.

An interesting thing I noticed when the Saville enquiry was published was the way the british media STILL downplayed what had happened and tried to pass the buck to those on the ground or the particular regiment instead of it being part of an overall strategy to keep a race "in line" so to speak. On the day it came out I remember flicking through the news channels and only on CNN did it say 14 people were murdered(instead of 13 people killed one later died of his injuries) and referred to the incedent as what it was, a massacre on innocent people.

Another strange thing is that since the provo's started to play the political game it's rare you will hear the IRA mentioned with the partys name these days.

 

[B_crackoff]

I have a very low tolerance threshold for unexamined harpism .
unfortunately as daves posts seemed to amount to this and lacked any real arguement / explanation / criticism. after two lines of reading i glazed over and scrolled past.

Subtext -With my narrowly educated mind, I don't agree with it, so it must be shite!

Anyway , I agree with jason .I normally do - sorry not on this one:smile:

Their politics - regardless of the climate in which they rose to prominence is worrying and should be unacceptable in modern Europe.

? Economic collapse, unsurmountable debt, phony racist wars of convenience & Globalist intent, yet you prefer mass murderers to those who have killed none?

You have confused nationalism & protectionism with racism. The two are only synomonous in a bigot's mind.

What kind of trite studentish banality is this?

Should you not care more about your fellow citizens opportunities, rather than some vague idealistic nonsense.

This is something - if dave is representative of the average sf voter- Northern Ireland will have to learn the hard way i suspect
That's right, you keep voting for people who preach tolerance whilst launching & continuing wars against other people's countries!.

BIG_DAVE - well done on your posts.

The response to you was typical of the unapproachable governing elite that we suffer.

They will not listen to you for they have already made up their mind. Facts opposing their viewpoint are to be ignored, & all nationalistic sentiment is of course racist. Killing foreigners in another country of course isn't!

It's not a moral maze for them, it's a jackass's vacuum!

 

[helgaleena]

I think the best examples of nationalism are the resurgences of small groups who have not been homogenized. Take the Iroquois lacrosse team which traveled on its own passports until this year. Suddenly USA forbids them doing it!

In my home state of Wisconsin, the Menominee nation seceded, but then rejoined the state as a county. But they still issue their own license plates. The legal status of the dozens of native nations living in Wisconsin varies according to the history of the treaties upheld or broken with each of them, and how much they cooperate with the BIA.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

Nationalism is racist. The wars in Iraq and Afgahnistan are imperialistic and for economic reasons.

Alot of us you talk about crackoff are not in favour of the wars in Iraq etc.

You moan about simplistic arguments, yet your insults are just that.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

BIG_DAVE - well done on your posts.

The response to you was typical of the unapproachable governing elite that we suffer.

They will not listen to you for they have already made up their mind. Facts opposing their viewpoint are to be ignored, & all nationalistic sentiment is of course racist. Killing foreigners in another country of course isn't!

It's not a moral maze for them, it's a jackass's vacuum!

Thank you! I couldn't agree more with your post. I even made sure I had no grounds to be questioned on my claims by providing sources, some of which were even by the british media to make sure the information I gathered was unbiased.

You are definately right in pointing out the fact the original poster is uneducated in how and why the Provisional movement of the IRA came to be and further more he had the facts there to read, gathered for him and STILL chose to ignore them is just testiment to the fact he was never interested in arguing any point. He just wanted to say that in his opinion Sinn Fein are like the BNP.

He would of been better off writing it on the toilet door at work.


Just so everyone knows I don't actually support Sinn Fein but I have at least the knowledge to know the orginal point of this thread is just plain bigotry. Further proven with the racist remarks by the orginial poster.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I think the best examples of nationalism are the resurgences of small groups who have not been homogenized. Take the Iroquois lacrosse team which traveled on its own passports until this year. Suddenly USA forbids them doing it!

In my home state of Wisconsin, the Menominee nation seceded, but then rejoined the state as a county. But they still issue their own license plates. The legal status of the dozens of native nations living in Wisconsin varies according to the history of the treaties upheld or broken with each of them, and how much they cooperate with the BIA.

I remember reading about that on the news I never understood what the goverment had to gain from revoking thier passports, wasn't it some crazy anti terror law or something?

But this thread is about how two nationalist political groups differ. One the British National Party(BNP) A diet KKK group in the UK and an Irish group Sinn Fein The political wing of the IRA. The orginal poster is trying claim they are just as bad as each other but is basically just a racist bigot himself by saying this. If you'd like to know the difference between the two you can read my first post in this thread and have a wee bit of a crash course in Irish politics if your new to it!

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Nationalism is racist. The wars in Iraq and Afgahnistan are imperialistic and for economic reasons.

Alot of us you talk about crackoff are not in favour of the wars in Iraq etc.

You moan about simplistic arguments, yet your insults are just that.

I wouldn't of said nationalism it's self is racist, it's how you act on it. That being said there is a fine line between nationalism, patriotism and a bigot.

besides I think we're getting off topic here.

 

[Victoria]

Uneducated?

An accusation from someone that posted something like "i got a semi earlier when i heard another brit got one in the back of the head in Afghanistan lol" in the chat room?

I have no desire to argue with a foaming at the mouth anglophobic xenophobe nationalist like you.

If the uk is so heinous and you despise others in your country that identify as British to the point you support a party that rose to prominence by killing their children. perhaps consider moving back to Ireland and "debating" with them?

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

To be Nationalistic, we have to have some sense of ownership/control over our country. I dont feel as though we do. So long as this is true, nationalism will be used to send our, usually poorer, youngsters to their death, Force biased and ideological cuts down our throats and make us hate our foreign neighbours, both in this land and the next.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I think anyone who's read my posts will know you are talking rubbish with that statement. I've given you nothing but the facts with sources with my posts, I ask if you are going to make claims show me the respect I've shown you and have proof please.

And yes you are uneducated in how and why the IRA came to be you have the facts with sources infront of you why not look at them and argue your point?

It was YOU who asked the question why ignore the answer?

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

I shouldn't have called Nationalism racist. But it is extremely ignorant and arrogant

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Uneducated?
If the uk is so heinous and you despise others in your country that identify as British to the point you support a party that rose to prominence by killing their children. perhaps consider moving back to Ireland and "debating" with them?

Is that a polite way of telling me to "go home"?? Sounds that way to me


And to think you were so critical of BNP leader nick griffen in your original post...

 

[BIG_DAVE]

To be Nationalistic, we have to have some sense of ownership/control over our country. I dont feel as though we do. So long as this is true, nationalism will be used to send our, usually poorer, youngsters to their death, Force biased and ideological cuts down our throats and make us hate our foreign neighbours, both in this land and the next.

The british have been playing that game for years. I saw it happen with my very eyes, they'd feed the british public with all this bullshit and niave young lads would be joining up to thier local regiment to be posted in my country only to be killed or in most cases kill innocent people which would in turn work as a recruiting tool for the local IRA with local people who were blood thursty and looking for revenge.

the war in the middle east will have no real end and nothing will have changed other than who has the oil now.

But I think thats where the line is crossed by the man to soldier and from patriot to nationalist ending into a bigot.


Although saying that, It's not always the case. I've met people in england who served in my country who were disgusted by the actions of the brtish army. One fella (who I'm happy to say is a mate of mine now) will probably never get over the guilt of standing by and watching what was happening to innocent people. And it's a sad thing as he just wanted a job and in the 80's not a lot else was going at the time so he joined up and this bigotry that the british feed into the public just ruined him when everyone else fully brought into it.

A sad story but in a way it shows progress thats happened that a man who served in my very city whom I would of thrown bricks (and possibly did) at as a kid is now one of my best mates.


But still this thread isn't about nationalism it's the difference between two political parties who have different ideas of being a "nationalist"

 

[B_crackoff]

Is that a polite way of telling me to "go home"?? Sounds that way to me


And to think you were so critical of BNP leader nick griffen in your original post...

Hahahahah:AR15firing: I knew this would come:
Victoria - you got wned22:

So there we have it. Even the Politically Correct have exactly the same amount of hate & bigotry - you just have to tease it outokey:

The left always leave out the Scottish Nationalist Party, because they see them as Labour & Liberals trying to return to the fold, & they have high domestic support on the mainland.

Despite 13 years of solely Scottish PMs & Chancellors, a country & crown united by consent under a Scottish King, the SNP continually bleat about being ruled by London, & the English, & perpetually try to devise ways to get out of the Union.

Exactly how is that different to Sinn Fein? Both parties strive to economically better the DOMESTIC social underclass, without the effete globalized dreams of the middle class that may well see a return to 19th Century poverty in these islands, & see nationhood as the best way of both securing, & protecting that goal. The BNP had the same policy too, if anyone ever read the economic manifesto.

I don't support any party, I'm just amused & amazed by the rank hypocrisy, lack of coherent & consistent logical reasoning, & complete distraction from urgent social requirements.

To Paraphrase Jonathon Swift

" You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves in the first place. So, if we are taught a collection of (assumed-to-be) facts, it is nothing but Dogma, Dogma stoutly resists subsequent displacement by reason. It seems anything people have learned takes on the status of an immutable truth ( This is something well understood by Parents, Government, and Religions) rational explanations of why some previous belief might be incompatible with the behavior, and a careful explanation of the actual behaviour, are of little avail."

What a clever man. True then, & certainly true now.

Ireland (& Wales) signed up for nothing with the UK. Save any first volleys for your spurious prejudices for the Scots - which you won't!

HG - Go Iroquois!

 

[Victoria]

Is that a polite way of telling me to "go home"?? Sounds that way to me


And to think you were so critical of BNP leader nick griffen in your original post...

Not at al , British society is one of the most tolerant , inclusive progressive societies in Europe.

All law abiding productive individuals all welcome to join it and contribute.

if British society / institutions are as awful as you've demonstrated through casual flippant anglophobic chartroom behavior / semtiment, why continue to make a hypocrite out of yourself by staying in , enjoying and benefiting from the economic , social and political freedoms British society affords you?

 

[Bbucko]

I shouldn't have called Nationalism racist. But it is extremely ignorant and arrogant

I wouldn't of said nationalism it's self is racist, it's how you act on it. That being said there is a fine line between nationalism, patriotism and a bigot.

besides I think we're getting off topic here.

Nationalism is not patriotism; it's a perversion of the notion of duty to one's country until it is elevated to the level of veneration. Though I agree that "nationalistic" and "racist" are not synonyms, it's a fact that, in most countries, there is a dominant racial paradigm that is idealized to the exclusion of others (and is vehemently anti-multicultural); "Aryan purity" (a complete fabrication, BTW: the Vedas were written by ethnic Indians) is merely the easiest example to summon due to its saturation in our culture.

In another thread, I wrote about attending a luncheon/brunch at a private home when living in Paris in the early 90s, quoting one of the other guests as saying "There's more to being French than just being born here" which was a slur against "Arabs". If I'd have thought to accuse him of collusion with JM LePen and the Front National (the French version of the BNP), he'd have been deeply insulted, yet he was parroting the same rhetoric; the extra irony is that he was Jewish

I must say that defining being Irish as a race (as opposed to an ethnicity) hasn't been in my experience since my racist and xenophobic grandmother reacted in horror when, as a small child returning home from school one St Patrick's day, I asked if we were Irish or not. There is not a single racial trait I've ever seen in any Irishman (whether born in Eire or elsewhere) that differentiates him conclusively from anyone born elsewhere in the British Isles.

Language, cuisine, customs and other cultural artifacts do not distinguish racial features. We all had a huge laugh when my mother's second husband, born in New York of Puerto Rican parents, was labeled "non-white" for demographic purposes (passport, I believe) despite being several shades lighter than my mother, who by anyone's definition (including her passport) is white as the driven snow.