Nationalism

[BIG_DAVE]

Not at al , British society is one of the most tolerant , inclusive progressive societies in Europe.

All law abiding productive individuals all welcome to join it and contribute.

if British society / institutions are as awful as you've demonstrated through casual flippant anglophobic chartroom behavior / semtiment, why continue to make a hypocrite out of yourself by staying in , enjoying and benefiting from the economic , social and political freedoms British society affords you?

Fantastic response, you managed to say (albeit with more words this time)

"if you don't like it here no one's making you stay, now go back to where you come from, we don't want your kind here."


Do you just have a go at the BNP cuz everyone else does? cuz I can see no difference in your racist undertones.



I love the way you say who's welcome to join "your" country like your an athority on it!

It really does tickle me the good auld english racist, happy enough for britian to invade everywhere but moan when they follow them home!

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Nationalism is not patriotism; it's a perversion of the notion of duty to one's country until it is elevated to the level of veneration. Though I agree that "nationalistic" and "racist" are not synonyms, it's a fact that, in most countries, there is a dominant racial paradigm that is idealized to the exclusion of others (and is vehemently anti-multicultural); "Aryan purity" (a complete fabrication, BTW: the Vedas were written by ethnic Indians) is merely the easiest example to summon due to its saturation in our culture.


I never said they were one of the same just there's a fine line between the two. While it's perfectly acceptable for example display your flag in your country (why wouldn't it be?) The english have a way of waving a flag in a manner almost saying your not welcome here immigants if that makes any sense?

In another thread, I wrote about attending a luncheon/brunch at a private home when living in Paris in the early 90s, quoting one of the other guests as saying "There's more to being French than just being born here" which was a slur against "Arabs". If I'd have thought to accuse him of collusion with JM LePen and the Front National (the French version of the BNP), he'd have been deeply insulted, yet he was parroting the same rhetoric; the extra irony is that he was Jewish

I remember reading on the news somewhere the BNP and that french group have political links somewhere. I think I could best describe them all as scum.



I must say that defining being Irish as a race (as opposed to an ethnicity) hasn't been in my experience since my racist and xenophobic grandmother reacted in horror when, as a small child returning home from school one St Patrick's day, I asked if we were Irish or not. There is not a single racial trait I've ever seen in any Irishman (whether born in Eire or elsewhere) that differentiates him conclusively from anyone born elsewhere in the British Isles.

I must warn you for the abuse you could get at the words of many angry Irishmen likening us to the english should he read your comment!

Language, cuisine, customs and other cultural artifacts do not distinguish racial features. We all had a huge laugh when my mother's second husband, born in New York of Puerto Rican parents, was labeled "non-white" for demographic purposes (passport, I believe) despite being several shades lighter than my mother, who by anyone's definition (including her passport) is white as the driven snow.

Well there you go, your right. I was always under the impression that your country was your race not your features. Well what is someone who hates an ethnic group called then?

 

[Victoria]

Fantastic response, you managed to say (albeit with more words this time)

"if you don't like it here no one's making you stay, now go back to where you come from, we don't want your kind here."


Do you just have a go at the BNP cuz everyone else does? cuz I can see no difference in your racist undertones.



I love the way you say who's welcome to join "your" country like your an athority on it!

It really does tickle me the good auld english racist, happy enough for britian to invade everywhere but moan when they follow them home!

another evasive answer a question with a question + accusation of some sort of prejudice?

where does the word "your" as in "my" country feature in my post. do point it out.

sinn fein are evil. nationalist socialists? what were the nazis again?
Do refresh my memory.

The evils you choose to be permissive to will have little bearing on me as i do not live in a country that nourishes something so pernicious and destructive *thankfully*

Instead of berating and slurring others that aren't blind to that fact. perhaps enlighten yourself?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

another evasive answer a question with a question + accusation of some sort of prejudice?

where does the word "your" as in "my" country feature in my post. do point it out.

sinn fein are evil. nationalist socialists? what where the nazis again?

The evils you choose to be permissive to will have little bearing on me as i do not live in a country that nourishes something so pernicious and destructive *thankfully*

Instead of berating and slurring others that aren't blind to that fact. perhaps enlighten yourself?

it was there in the implication I'm sure there's many who wouldn't argue that but then again when does nick griffen say "his" country when he talks about immigrants who don't like living in britian and just like you ask why not go home in not as many words.

You've still yet to reply to anything in my first 2 posts about Sinn Fein as you know full well you are wrong and just a bitter over something your quite clueless about.

The Nazi's also rounded up people due to thier race and murdered them much like the british did, but you seem to be ignoring that.


The funny thing is your so ignorant you don't even realise the statements your making or how you even come across.



Now You asked a question in your first post, I answered it. Go through what I wrote and tell me what I said that's not true.

 

[Victoria]

Irish "nationalism" has a long lineage of anglophobic fascist sympathies.

Sixty five Years ago on the 2nd May 1945 just at the close of World War Two the political leader of the Irish Free State and embodiment of the Irish Republican movement failed even to be discreet in his support for Nazism. Eamon de Valera, the survivor of the 1916 Easter rising (a track record for helping German war efforts), saw fit to sign a petition of condolence at the German legation in Dublin to express his grief on the death of Hitler. Furthermore, he went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer. Later on the Dublin mob vandalised the British High Commission and the US embassy on news of the Allied victory, both countries being outraged at Ireland's attitude and actions.


Please note this event took place a full three months after the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp and the revelation of the full horror of the Nazi genocide, and was only two weeks after British troops had liberated Bergen-Belsen, accompanied as it happened by an Irish doctor. There could be no possibility that de Valera and the Dail were unaware of the Nazi treatment of Jews, and yet the leader of supposedly neutral Ireland still wished to pay his respects to one of the most evil men in the history of the world. It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make.

It is clear that de Valera was sympathetic to the Nazi slaughter of Jews, and still willing to be open about it when it was clear that there would be no comeback for Nazi Germany and no united Ireland on the back of an axis victory and the bayonets of the SS. It is interesting to note that de Valera's visit was publicly applauded in the Irish press by Irish republican supporting literary gem, George Bernard Shaw.

Eoin O'Duffy

Eoin O'Duffy rose to prominence as Chief of Staff of the IRA at the time of the Civil War and was commander of the Monaghan brigade and later IRA Chief of Staff. At this time, as pro-treaty he split with de Valera. As the first Chief Commissioner of the Garda Siochana (Irish police force), Eoin O'Duffy turned himself into Ireland's answer to Mussolini being leader of the 100000 strong fascist Blueshirts movement (Army Comrades Association) which he renamed the National Guard. This organisation echoed Hitler's SA movement and based its marches, flags and salutes (Hail, O'Duffy) on those in use in Nazi Germany.



O'Duffy and his Irish Fascists

In 1933 O'Duffy was the founder of the Fine Gael Party which developed from the Blueshirts, and was thus leader of the political opposition to de Valera's Fianna Fail party. A year later he was ousted from the leadership when he proposed an invasion of Northern Ireland. Fine Gael saw itself strongly in the mainstream of European fascism and this can clearly be seen in the words of John A. Costello who later became leader of Fine Gael and Prime Minister of the Irish Republic. Speaking in the Dail he said "The Blackshirts have been victorious in Italy and Hitler's Brownshirts have been victorious in Germany, as assuredly the Blueshirts will be victorious in Ireland". During the Spanish Civil War O'Duffy led the 700 strong pro-Franco Irish brigade, but the Spanish fascist was not impressed by his fascist colleague O'Duffy's drunken antics and disbanded them.



Saluting the Irish Fuhrer

During World War Two (Still known in the Republic of Ireland as the Emergency) O'Duffy took a great interest in Nazism with which his Peoples National Party was closely aligned. He even went to the extent of sending an offer to Hitler saying that he would raise a "Green Legion" of Irishmen to fight on the Russian front. As a Nazi collaborator he spent time in Germany discussing with the Nazis in true Irish Republican fashion precisely what he could do to assist in Hitler's campaign against Britain. The 'Green Duce' that had modelled himself on Mussolini and supported Hitler died peacefully in 1944 and was buried with a state funeral in Glasnevin cemetry in Dublin, alongide other heroes of Irish Republicanism such as Daniel O'Connell, Roger Casement and O'Duffy's former comrade Michael Collins.



The "Green Duce" - leader of Fine Gael Blueshirts

Irish Anti-Semitism

This of course was not the only manifestation of Irish sympathy for Nazism which led to them being rebuffed scornfully by the USA, that prevented their qualification for Marshal Aid, and delayed their entrance into the United Nations until 1957. During the War officials of the Irish Free State were outrageous in their racist anti-Semitism which was openly tolerated by the Roman Catholic hierarchy and common currency in Irish society. Indeed Hitler's racial criteria for keeping out the Jew were still being used in Eire 8 years after Hitler's death. A 1953 memo from the Dublin department of Justice argues that vetting refugees into the Republic should be on a similar basis to that 'adopted for the admission of non-Ayran refugees' in 1938 and 1939. The Department of Justice went on to depicte the eastern European Jews applying for asylum as a danger to the Irish State. "There is strong anti-Jewish feeling in this State which is particularly evident to the Alien Section of the Department of Justice." They went on to write 'Sympathy for the Jews has not been particularly excited at the recent news that some thousands are fleeing westwards because of the recent round-up of communist Jews who had been prominent in Government and in government service in eastern European countries.'

When in the Dail in 1943, Oliver J. Flanagan praised Hitler for ridding Germany of Jews claiming, "I doubt very much if they are human!", he was not challenged by any other member. Later in a speech to the Dail he said "There is one thing that Germany did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country. Until we rout the Jews out of this country it does not matter a hair's breadth what orders you make. Where the bees are there is honey, and where the Jews are there is money." Flanagan was soon to join Fine Gael and remained a T.D. for them until 1987 briefly becoming Minister for Defence in the late 1970's. In 2004 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny T.D. eulogised the memory of the nazi monster on the resignation of his son from politics "Charlie Flanagan continued the long tradition of service given by his late father Oliver J. to the people of Laois/Offaly in exemplary fashion." An exemplary Jew hater indeed! J.J. Walsh T.D. who had been a minister in the Cosgrave government was another high ranking anti-Semite who described Irish Jews as a "gang of parasites".

Anti-Semitism and praise for fascism was also rife within the Roman Catholic hierarchy. The main body organising support for Franco was the Irish Christian Front (I.C.F.) a broad based pressure group which , in the early months of the Spanish civil war organised massive demonstrations and had, initially at least, more widespread support than the Blueshirts. The Front's founders were Patrick Belton, who was formerly a T.D. for both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael as well as being an ex-Blueshirt, and Alexander McCabe, formerly elected for both Sinn Fein (pre-1922) and Cumann Na nGaedheal and later to be a member of Eoin O'Duffy's pro-nazi People's National Party. At one I.C.F. rally in Cork in September 1936 40,000 people assembled to hear Monsignor Patrick Sexton, Roman Catholic Dean of Cork, blame the Spanish civil war on "a gang of murderous Jews in Moscow". Beside him stood Alfred O'Rahilly, the future president of the University College of Cork, and Douglas Hyde, the future president of the Irish state who up until introduction of the Euro has his head on the Irish £50 note.

This track record of democratically elected and clerical Jew-baiting was certainly foundation for the fact that only 30 European Jews fleeing persecution were given asylum before the war, none during it, and only a handful afterwards, and that there was consistent government opposition to granting any asylum. Even a year after the close of war, with the memory of the concentration camps fresh in the Irish public's consciousness, the Department of Justice was still vehemently opposed to Jews entering Ireland. In August 1946, the Minister of Justice refused to admit 100 Jewish orphans found at the Bergen-Belsen death camp.

This race hatred should be no surprise given the recent history there had been, of pogroms against Jews in Ireland, such as in Limerick in 1904 when Roman Priest Father John Creagh incited the local population against "blood-sucking" Jewish money-lenders. His sermons brought about a two-year trade boycott of Jewish businesses that was accompanied by harassment and beatings and resulted in the almost total departure of the 150-strong Limerick Jewish community.

Religious intolerance isn't unique to the Northern part of Ireland.

 

[Bbucko]

Nationalism is not patriotism; it's a perversion of the notion of duty to one's country until it is elevated to the level of veneration. Though I agree that "nationalistic" and "racist" are not synonyms, it's a fact that, in most countries, there is a dominant racial paradigm that is idealized to the exclusion of others (and is vehemently anti-multicultural); "Aryan purity" (a complete fabrication, BTW: the Vedas were written by ethnic Indians) is merely the easiest example to summon due to its saturation in our culture.


I never said they were one of the same just there's a fine line between the two. While it's perfectly acceptable for example display your flag in your country (why wouldn't it be?) The english have a way of waving a flag in a manner almost saying your not welcome here immigants if that makes any sense?

It makes complete sense. I loathe generalizations, though. Every self-identified culture has positive and negative qualities; though my sympathies tend toward a francophile perspective (rather than a British one) in most things, I've met truly lovely people and complete assholes everywhere I've traveled and with all the immigrants and tourists I've encountered throughout my life, and I've always lived in heavily-favored tourist destinations.

I understand that your upbringing and background have shaped your sharp opinions (anything else would not be realistic nor reasonable). However, what I don't understand (read this carefully) is why people choose to live where they feel less than welcome and free to pursue their life. When I lived in Paris, I understood that deep and profound anti-American sentiment is a reflexive part of their culture, so I worked constantly to rid my speech of any trace of an American accent of any sort (my non-English-speaking lover corrected every sound). It took about four to six months.

I had a Parisian customer two nights ago who was shocked at my French; even after 18 years (and highly irregular usage), he'd still have never guessed that I was American. He called it "impeccable".

That was the price I needed to pay to attempt to emigrate to France, in addition to some changes in grooming and clothing; once accomplished, my entire life changed and became not just easier but cheaper, too. In that one instance, and for the only time in my stubbornly, idealistically individualist life, I attempted assimilation, my motivation being love for my partner and a desire to live in Paris.

But there's no way in hell I'd live in any other community that didn't accept me entirely on my own terms and without prejudice or any other form of discrimination. It would be an exercise in utter futility.

I'm not saying "Go home": not one bit. What I am saying, however, is that I cannot understand why you'd choose to live someplace where you feel hostility both from others and from yourself. I just don't get it.

In another thread, I wrote about attending a luncheon/brunch at a private home when living in Paris in the early 90s, quoting one of the other guests as saying "There's more to being French than just being born here" which was a slur against "Arabs". If I'd have thought to accuse him of collusion with JM LePen and the Front National (the French version of the BNP), he'd have been deeply insulted, yet he was parroting the same rhetoric; the extra irony is that he was Jewish

I remember reading on the news somewhere the BNP and that french group have political links somewhere. I think I could best describe them all as scum.

Everything I've read is that they are cut from the identically same cloth, and "scum" is too kind: they are bigoted fascists.

I must say that defining being Irish as a race (as opposed to an ethnicity) hasn't been in my experience since my racist and xenophobic grandmother reacted in horror when, as a small child returning home from school one St Patrick's day, I asked if we were Irish or not. There is not a single racial trait I've ever seen in any Irishman (whether born in Eire or elsewhere) that differentiates him conclusively from anyone born elsewhere in the British Isles.

I must warn you for the abuse you could get at the words of many angry Irishmen likening us to the english should he read your comment!

Oh boo-hoo :biggrin1:

Seriously, I understand the ethnic and cultural divide between Ireland and England (less clear on Welsh and Scots sympathies), but that's what they are: ethnic and cultural, not racial.

Language, cuisine, customs and other cultural artifacts do not distinguish racial features. We all had a huge laugh when my mother's second husband, born in New York of Puerto Rican parents, was labeled "non-white" for demographic purposes (passport, I believe) despite being several shades lighter than my mother, who by anyone's definition (including her passport) is white as the driven snow.

Well there you go, your right. I was always under the impression that your country was your race not your features. Well what is someone who hates an ethnic group called then?

In answer to your final question: a bigot.

What "race" is an American or a Canadian, (or a Russian, for that matter) with their large and diverse multi-cultural populations?

 

[B_crackoff]

another evasive answer a question with a question + accusation of some sort of prejudice?

where does the word "your" as in "my" country feature in my post. do point it out.

sinn fein are evil. nationalist socialists? what were the nazis again?
Do refresh my memory.

Yes they were SOCIALISTS!

The evils you choose to be permissive to will have little bearing on me as i do not live in a country that nourishes something so pernicious and destructive *thankfully*

Instead of berating and slurring others that aren't blind to that fact. perhaps enlighten yourself?

It's like ealing with the criminally ignorant.

The NAZIs were Imperialists - just like the English, the Japanese(why does no one mention them in the same breath as the Nazis), & the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics.

Sinn Fein, the SNP, the BNP, Plaid Cymru, the Mao Mao all just want(ed) their own borders respected.

Indeed how odd & ironic that the only parties that state they will respect other nations borders, culture & sovereignity - are Nationalist!

The Democrats & Republicans in the US, Labour, the Tories & the LDs in the UK, have no such qualms about using either military or economic force to compel other nations into submissive obedience, with a nice legacy of Depleted Uranium diseases to keep them supine for a few more years.

BTW Bbucko, there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who do look distinctively Irish, though yes, over 10-15,000 years there has been a lot of gene mingling within the British Isles, but still 85% of British Isles citizens(well up to 5 years ago LOL) share the same DNA as those original inhabitants.

But of course the Irish are great at laughing at themselves!

If people band together in a common interest, with a shared heritage & background, to protect communities, it's only natural (when the time requires) to band together a nation.

If we have LGBT banding as one - understand others desire or need to do the same without being so judgemental.

 

[Bbucko]

BTW Bbucko, there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who do look distinctively Irish, though yes, over 10-15,000 years there has been a lot of gene mingling within the British Isles, but still 85% of British Isles citizens(well up to 5 years ago LOL) share the same DNA as those original inhabitants.

But of course the Irish are great at laughing at themselves!

If people band together in a common interest, with a shared heritage & background, to protect communities, it's only natural (when the time requires) to band together a nation.

If we have LGBT banding as one - understand others desire or need to do the same without being so judgemental.

I'm unclear on how denying a "racial" label to ethnic and cultural status is "judgemental". I actually see an attempt at defining an Irish race as divisive and loaded with prejudice. Are Czechs a different "race" from Slovaks?

To me, this is like the whole Tutsi/Hutu horror: they view racial differences where none occur.

And any view of GLBTs in the US (or elsewhere) as anything like a "banding" or a singular monolith of anything is entirely illusory: it's a myth that simply does not exist. The purpose of Gay Pride is to celebrate diversity, not conformity in any fashion whatsoever.

 

[helgaleena]

But still this thread isn't about nationalism it's the difference between two political parties who have different ideas of being a "nationalist"

My goodness, one would think this was your thread and not Victoria's! And if she agrees, she will change the title, and add more tags.

Are you suggesting that the examples I gave are of groups who don't vote or form political parties? They too have differing views of being 'nationalist' and also of what it means to say 'my land'...

The OP asked about two political parties in two different nations. That leaves the field wide open to discuss examples from any nation.

 

[B_crackoff]

I'm unclear on how denying a "racial" label to ethnic and cultural status is "judgemental".
I haven't said that. You've misunderstood me. I've said national. There are no races really as we all know, but people are free to use what language they like to describe themselves.

They need neither your consent, nor approval.

I actually see an attempt at defining an Irish race as divisive and loaded with prejudice. Are Czechs a different "race" from Slovaks?

But there are undeniable evolutionary(if you like) differences. But in island nations , or remote locations there are clearly going to be identiable gentitic traits & markers not found anywhere else - skin colour, tolerances etc.

To me, this is like the whole Tutsi/Hutu horror: they view racial differences where none occur.

Piffle. Hyperbole.

Aren't the Tutsis a lot taller? You just don't see it, & the facial differences, because to you they're just black. That's not a criticism.

You clearly know no Africans. I've introduced Kenyans to each other, & they can spot anyone not of their tribal origin on sight(and dislike them for it!). And there are hundreds. It's the same with Ugandans I know. Remarkable really.

That said, are you really telling me you cannot identify obvious Slavic,Nordic, Spanish or Greek features? Wow.

And any view of GLBTs in the US (or elsewhere) as anything like a "banding" or a singular monolith of anything is entirely illusory: it's a myth that simply does not exist. The purpose of Gay Pride is to celebrate diversity, not conformity in any fashion whatsoever.

No, it's to celebrate LGBT! And I find the last paragraph quite humorous - conformity of view, & homogenic rights are the purpose of that political machine. Gay Pride does not celebrate diversity of thought or views at all, & it's ridiculous to suggest it.

Now the politically created credo of "Diversity", which bears little resemblance to the actual word - that's true!

I tell you what. I'll accept getting rid of peoples right to be have nationalistic pride movements the day each & every other minority/majority, protest/lobby , Beatrix F*cking Potter support groups cease to exist as well.

Bloody hell, I even put cartoons in the last post to lighten the mood!

 

[Bbucko]

I haven't said that. You've misunderstood me. I've said national. There are no races really as we all know, but people are free to use what language they like to describe themselves.

This is the one thing you wrote that makes sense. Everything subsequent seems to contradict this: there are no "races", just family resemblances.

Of course I recognize the looks of different ethnicities among Europeans; you are correct in saying that I don't know many Africans. I haven't got the advantage of living in a former Imperial capitol that colonized Africa; I am also astoundingly ignorant of most ethnic traits one associates with the differences between Koreans, Japanese and Chinese because I have precious little exposure to their culture and my traveling has been limited to Europe, North and South America.

I do, however recognize the ethnic variations and physical differences between Indochina and the parts of East Asia mentioned above, just like I can differentiate between someone of Native Peruvian heritage from, say, a Mayan.

Though I've never actually been (want to someday, though), I understand that this concept of race is not such a big thing in Brazil, which maintains an incredibly diverse group of ethnicities and "looks". The Brazilians I've met in my life (and there've been a few hundred, I'd recon) have ranged from pale and fair to dark chocolate; there is no one definitive "trait" or "marker" which makes a Brazilian Brazilian except for that insanely sexy version of Portuguese they speak. They are seriously the most outrageously attractive people on the planet.

No, it's to celebrate LGBT! And I find the last paragraph quite humorous - conformity of view, & homogenic rights are the purpose of that political machine. Gay Pride does not celebrate diversity of thought or views at all, & it's ridiculous to suggest it.

Now the politically created credo of "Diversity", which bears little resemblance to the actual word - that's true!

We obviously have vastly different experiences with Pride events and very different experiences with the GLBT "community". I currently live in one of the largest concentrations of GLBTs in the world, and the only thing we have in common is geography.

Are you even aware that Mr IML (International Man of Leather) 2010 is a transgendered F2M who is disabled with MS?

I tell you what. I'll accept getting rid of peoples right to be have nationalistic pride movements the day each & every other minority/majority, protest/lobby , Beatrix F*cking Potter support groups cease to exist as well.

Bloody hell, I even put cartoons in the last post to lighten the mood!

I've never denied anyone's right to anything: I'm merely pointing out flaws in the reasoning behind some opinions expressed on an internet message board (as I see them).

 

[B_crackoff]

Are you even aware that Mr IML (International Man of Leather) 2010 is a transgendered F2M who is disabled with MS?

Is she not a single mother to boot?:wink: I think you've made my point about Diversity.

I've never denied anyone's right to anything: I'm merely pointing out flaws in the reasoning behind some opinions expressed on an internet message board (as I see them).

My reasoning is flawless - possibly abstract, & certainly confrontational at times because that's what freedom of thought gives - my attention to my spelling however...(bloody keyboard)

If I have a Damascene conversion overnight, I'll be off to berate Tibetans for not welcoming their Chinese bretheren, & Native Americans for using a title that would appear to make other immigrants feel like 2nd class citizens.:wink:

 

[Victoria]

My reasoning is flawless - possibly abstract, & certainly confrontational at times because that's what freedom of thought gives - my attention to my spelling however...(bloody keyboard)

If I have a Damascene conversion overnight, I'll be off to berate Tibetans for not welcoming their Chinese bretheren, & Native Americans for using a title that would appear to make other immigrants feel like 2nd class citizens.:wink:

I find you distasteful to put it mildly.

Your opinions while you're entitled to them of course are perverse and worrying.

If you cannot distinguish between ideas of innocuous national pride and populist political ideologies that in the absence of tangible rationale to justify their "cause" resort to vilifying and dehumanizing other human beings that do not qualify or fit whatever pseudo "race" they create for cynical political purposes and claim to be ambassadors and "liberators". of...

Hitler made those claims. Stalin made those claims.

they're obvious examples but germane when discussing historical instances of nationalist ideology.

National pride and militant murderous nationalism aren't the same thing.
You speak of "internationalism" ireland would not be viable economic entity were it not for the eu and the investment and money it's generously pumped into it.

The "Celtic" tiger would be anemic and in it's death throws if Ireland moved away from this internationalism you speak about...

it obviously has it benefits.

Nationalism is an unhealthy ideology. the pages of history bare this out.
Learn from those instances instead of propagating arrogantly presented specious nonsense.

 

[luka82]

Nationalism is an unhealthy ideology. the pages of history bare this out.

Coming from a part of the world destroyed by such ideology, I couldn`t agree more.

 

[Bbucko]

Is she not a single mother to boot?:wink: I think you've made my point about Diversity.

Actually he is a he, you understand nothing. I've actually met him.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Irish "nationalism" has a long lineage of anglophobic fascist sympathies.

Sixty five Years ago on the 2nd May 1945 just at the close of World War Two the political leader of the Irish Free State and embodiment of the Irish Republican movement failed even to be discreet in his support for Nazism. Eamon de Valera, the survivor of the 1916 Easter rising (a track record for helping German war efforts), saw fit to sign a petition of condolence at the German legation in Dublin to express his grief on the death of Hitler. Furthermore, he went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer. Later on the Dublin mob vandalised the British High Commission and the US embassy on news of the Allied victory, both countries being outraged at Ireland's attitude and actions.


Please note this event took place a full three months after the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp and the revelation of the full horror of the Nazi genocide, and was only two weeks after British troops had liberated Bergen-Belsen, accompanied as it happened by an Irish doctor. There could be no possibility that de Valera and the Dail were unaware of the Nazi treatment of Jews, and yet the leader of supposedly neutral Ireland still wished to pay his respects to one of the most evil men in the history of the world. It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make.

It is clear that de Valera was sympathetic to the Nazi slaughter of Jews, and still willing to be open about it when it was clear that there would be no comeback for Nazi Germany and no united Ireland on the back of an axis victory and the bayonets of the SS. It is interesting to note that de Valera's visit was publicly applauded in the Irish press by Irish republican supporting literary gem, George Bernard Shaw.

Eoin O'Duffy

Eoin O'Duffy rose to prominence as Chief of Staff of the IRA at the time of the Civil War and was commander of the Monaghan brigade and later IRA Chief of Staff. At this time, as pro-treaty he split with de Valera. As the first Chief Commissioner of the Garda Siochana (Irish police force), Eoin O'Duffy turned himself into Ireland's answer to Mussolini being leader of the 100000 strong fascist Blueshirts movement (Army Comrades Association) which he renamed the National Guard. This organisation echoed Hitler's SA movement and based its marches, flags and salutes (Hail, O'Duffy) on those in use in Nazi Germany.



O'Duffy and his Irish Fascists

In 1933 O'Duffy was the founder of the Fine Gael Party which developed from the Blueshirts, and was thus leader of the political opposition to de Valera's Fianna Fail party. A year later he was ousted from the leadership when he proposed an invasion of Northern Ireland. Fine Gael saw itself strongly in the mainstream of European fascism and this can clearly be seen in the words of John A. Costello who later became leader of Fine Gael and Prime Minister of the Irish Republic. Speaking in the Dail he said "The Blackshirts have been victorious in Italy and Hitler's Brownshirts have been victorious in Germany, as assuredly the Blueshirts will be victorious in Ireland". During the Spanish Civil War O'Duffy led the 700 strong pro-Franco Irish brigade, but the Spanish fascist was not impressed by his fascist colleague O'Duffy's drunken antics and disbanded them.



Saluting the Irish Fuhrer

During World War Two (Still known in the Republic of Ireland as the Emergency) O'Duffy took a great interest in Nazism with which his Peoples National Party was closely aligned. He even went to the extent of sending an offer to Hitler saying that he would raise a "Green Legion" of Irishmen to fight on the Russian front. As a Nazi collaborator he spent time in Germany discussing with the Nazis in true Irish Republican fashion precisely what he could do to assist in Hitler's campaign against Britain. The 'Green Duce' that had modelled himself on Mussolini and supported Hitler died peacefully in 1944 and was buried with a state funeral in Glasnevin cemetry in Dublin, alongide other heroes of Irish Republicanism such as Daniel O'Connell, Roger Casement and O'Duffy's former comrade Michael Collins.



The "Green Duce" - leader of Fine Gael Blueshirts

Irish Anti-Semitism

This of course was not the only manifestation of Irish sympathy for Nazism which led to them being rebuffed scornfully by the USA, that prevented their qualification for Marshal Aid, and delayed their entrance into the United Nations until 1957. During the War officials of the Irish Free State were outrageous in their racist anti-Semitism which was openly tolerated by the Roman Catholic hierarchy and common currency in Irish society. Indeed Hitler's racial criteria for keeping out the Jew were still being used in Eire 8 years after Hitler's death. A 1953 memo from the Dublin department of Justice argues that vetting refugees into the Republic should be on a similar basis to that 'adopted for the admission of non-Ayran refugees' in 1938 and 1939. The Department of Justice went on to depicte the eastern European Jews applying for asylum as a danger to the Irish State. "There is strong anti-Jewish feeling in this State which is particularly evident to the Alien Section of the Department of Justice." They went on to write 'Sympathy for the Jews has not been particularly excited at the recent news that some thousands are fleeing westwards because of the recent round-up of communist Jews who had been prominent in Government and in government service in eastern European countries.'

When in the Dail in 1943, Oliver J. Flanagan praised Hitler for ridding Germany of Jews claiming, "I doubt very much if they are human!", he was not challenged by any other member. Later in a speech to the Dail he said "There is one thing that Germany did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country. Until we rout the Jews out of this country it does not matter a hair's breadth what orders you make. Where the bees are there is honey, and where the Jews are there is money." Flanagan was soon to join Fine Gael and remained a T.D. for them until 1987 briefly becoming Minister for Defence in the late 1970's. In 2004 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny T.D. eulogised the memory of the nazi monster on the resignation of his son from politics "Charlie Flanagan continued the long tradition of service given by his late father Oliver J. to the people of Laois/Offaly in exemplary fashion." An exemplary Jew hater indeed! J.J. Walsh T.D. who had been a minister in the Cosgrave government was another high ranking anti-Semite who described Irish Jews as a "gang of parasites".

Anti-Semitism and praise for fascism was also rife within the Roman Catholic hierarchy. The main body organising support for Franco was the Irish Christian Front (I.C.F.) a broad based pressure group which , in the early months of the Spanish civil war organised massive demonstrations and had, initially at least, more widespread support than the Blueshirts. The Front's founders were Patrick Belton, who was formerly a T.D. for both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael as well as being an ex-Blueshirt, and Alexander McCabe, formerly elected for both Sinn Fein (pre-1922) and Cumann Na nGaedheal and later to be a member of Eoin O'Duffy's pro-nazi People's National Party. At one I.C.F. rally in Cork in September 1936 40,000 people assembled to hear Monsignor Patrick Sexton, Roman Catholic Dean of Cork, blame the Spanish civil war on "a gang of murderous Jews in Moscow". Beside him stood Alfred O'Rahilly, the future president of the University College of Cork, and Douglas Hyde, the future president of the Irish state who up until introduction of the Euro has his head on the Irish £50 note.

This track record of democratically elected and clerical Jew-baiting was certainly foundation for the fact that only 30 European Jews fleeing persecution were given asylum before the war, none during it, and only a handful afterwards, and that there was consistent government opposition to granting any asylum. Even a year after the close of war, with the memory of the concentration camps fresh in the Irish public's consciousness, the Department of Justice was still vehemently opposed to Jews entering Ireland. In August 1946, the Minister of Justice refused to admit 100 Jewish orphans found at the Bergen-Belsen death camp.

This race hatred should be no surprise given the recent history there had been, of pogroms against Jews in Ireland, such as in Limerick in 1904 when Roman Priest Father John Creagh incited the local population against "blood-sucking" Jewish money-lenders. His sermons brought about a two-year trade boycott of Jewish businesses that was accompanied by harassment and beatings and resulted in the almost total departure of the 150-strong Limerick Jewish community.

Religious intolerance isn't unique to the Northern part of Ireland.

I don't understand where all that has come from. Firstly, you have listed no source's. I'm not going to reply until you do as you could be making them up I asked you to treat me with the same respect I did you and provide links as to where your getting you information.

Secondly, when I told you how the british murdered Irishmen women and childeren only because of thier race you seem to be of the opinion that it was ok to murder us as you Irish are more nazi than us.


Thirdly You've STILL no responded to my first two posts which blew your first post out of the water.


If your point is, you don't like the Irish then I'm all sure we can agree you dont.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

My goodness, one would think this was your thread and not Victoria's! And if she agrees, she will change the title, and add more tags.

Are you suggesting that the examples I gave are of groups who don't vote or form political parties? They too have differing views of being 'nationalist' and also of what it means to say 'my land'...

The OP asked about two political parties in two different nations. That leaves the field wide open to discuss examples from any nation.

The OP again.

How does British BNP nationalism differ from Irish Sinn fein ect Nationalism

The BNP *thankfully* evoke disgust and revulsion in the minds of most if not nearly all productive right thinking members of British society . Most of the voting public are savvy enough to realise they promote exclusionary, unhealthy , xenophobic, singular ideas of nationality / ethnicity and reject their politics as sinister and unacceptable.

My question is how do a political party like sinn fein differ from BNP.?

Nick Griffin is awful and in my opinion deserves to be shunned and ignored. but at worst he can be described as an Alf garnet / Archie Bunker type figure who cynically plays on the immigration fears of alienated disenfranchised communities and outside of those communities is largely a figure of mockery.

BNP contrasted with populist sinn fein in Northern Ireland who appear to have equally sinister xenophobic leanings - and that's before the possibility is mentioned their party leaders Gerry Adams / Martin McGuinness may or may not have the blood of dead children on their hands Nick Griffin seems almost day-time-tv presenter camp and innocuous by comparison




My question is , how do the two differ.?


What subtly / nuance aren't I seeing that makes a party like sinn fein more acceptable than the BNP?

I never said that about either group you mentioned, I just said I didn't understand why the goverment took away thier rights like that.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

It makes complete sense. I loathe generalizations, though. Every self-identified culture has positive and negative qualities; though my sympathies tend toward a francophile perspective (rather than a British one) in most things, I've met truly lovely people and complete assholes everywhere I've traveled and with all the immigrants and tourists I've encountered throughout my life, and I've always lived in heavily-favored tourist destinations.

I understand that your upbringing and background have shaped your sharp opinions (anything else would not be realistic nor reasonable). However, what I don't understand (read this carefully) is why people choose to live where they feel less than welcome and free to pursue their life. When I lived in Paris, I understood that deep and profound anti-American sentiment is a reflexive part of their culture, so I worked constantly to rid my speech of any trace of an American accent of any sort (my non-English-speaking lover corrected every sound). It took about four to six months.

I had a Parisian customer two nights ago who was shocked at my French; even after 18 years (and highly irregular usage), he'd still have never guessed that I was American. He called it "impeccable".

That was the price I needed to pay to attempt to emigrate to France, in addition to some changes in grooming and clothing; once accomplished, my entire life changed and became not just easier but cheaper, too. In that one instance, and for the only time in my stubbornly, idealistically individualist life, I attempted assimilation, my motivation being love for my partner and a desire to live in Paris.

But there's no way in hell I'd live in any other community that didn't accept me entirely on my own terms and without prejudice or any other form of discrimination. It would be an exercise in utter futility.

I'm not saying "Go home": not one bit. What I am saying, however, is that I cannot understand why you'd choose to live someplace where you feel hostility both from others and from yourself. I just don't get it.

Well granted I do have to put up with people like the orginal poster who has that very poilte way of without actually saying we don't like you here go home but you can read from the posts they'd put up what I mean. But the truth of the matter is I've no option but to stay here a bit longer. I was employed by a english company to work away if you like, I still get to go home for a few days now and again but for the next few months maybe even a year I'm stuck here.

But it's not all bigotry I encounter. A lot of people are very clued up to the situation that happened, esp when the prime minister has formally said sorry for 1 massacre thats happened over the years it does help people open thier eyes as to whats been going on and if anything helps me and my countrymen move on.

Plus English women are a bit more liberated shall we say than Irish women and the accent always comes in handy on a night out!


Yes I am not welcome in certain situations and places your right but the biggest difference i see in people is the englishman and the man who's british and from england the latter being the small minded bigot. I never in all my years have been forced into leaving where I am due to small minded bigots and I will speak my mind even though it has gotten me into bother on more than one occasion!

I guess I'm hard headed but I know it's only a temporary situation so I know I'll be back home with a load of money and happy again soon!

Everything I've read is that they are cut from the identically same cloth, and "scum" is too kind: they are bigoted fascists.

I agree!

Oh boo-hoo :biggrin1:

Seriously, I understand the ethnic and cultural divide between Ireland and England (less clear on Welsh and Scots sympathies), but that's what they are: ethnic and cultural, not racial.

well the welsh and scots is kind of the same situation with the english but maybe not as severe as it would be between Ireland and england. The's two types of welsh and scotsman the britishman and the welsh/scotsman. Again the british one being one of the "days of the empire and all how great britian is and we don't want immigrants here ruining the country" kinda of rant them.


In answer to your final question: a bigot.

Well there you go, I was always under the impression they were one and the same!

What "race" is an American or a Canadian, (or a Russian, for that matter) with their large and diverse multi-cultural populations?

When I said "your" race I ment it as in "ones" race, sorry I think that was bit of cultural thing there!

 

[Victoria]

I don't understand where all that has come from. Firstly, you have listed no source's. I'm not going to reply until you do as you could be making them up I asked you to treat me with the same respect I did you and provide links as to where your getting you information.

Secondly, when I told you how the british murdered Irishmen women and childeren only because of thier race you seem to be of the opinion that it was ok to murder us as you Irish are more nazi than us.


Thirdly You've STILL no responded to my first two posts which blew your first post out of the water.


If your point is, you don't like the Irish then I'm all sure we can agree you dont.

I can't respond to your first posts or play devils advocate as I'm not familiar with the circumstances / causality of those events.

There are two sides to every story , I'm sure an informed member of the other community in n.i. ..how was it you described them in the chatroom.. huns?
(I had to goggle that term to realize it was a sectarian slur) could give there version of events.. i could piece the two versions together to form a likelier and more representative scenario.

As it is the only information available to me is from a source i already know to be bias and bigoted.


As for disliking Irish people? (get a life you sad bastard)
hardly, my mother is from Dublin and i have relatives there.

I do however dislike terrorism and all forms and nationalism.

How about you post something critical about sinn fein instead to prove you're not the complete sycophant/ lemming i suspect you are?

 

[freyasworld]

How does British BNP nationalism differ from Irish Sinn fein ect Nationalism

The BNP *thankfully* evoke disgust and revulsion in the minds of most if not nearly all productive right thinking members of British society . Most of the voting public are savvy enough to realise they promote exclusionary, unhealthy , xenophobic, singular ideas of nationality / ethnicity and reject their politics as sinister and unacceptable.

My question is how do a political party like sinn fein differ from BNP.?

Nick Griffin is awful and in my opinion deserves to be shunned and ignored. but at worst he can be described as an Alf garnet / Archie Bunker type figure who cynically plays on the immigration fears of alienated disenfranchised communities and outside of those communities is largely a figure of mockery.

BNP contrasted with populist sinn fein in Northern Ireland who appear to have equally sinister xenophobic leanings - and that's before the possibility is mentioned their party leaders Gerry Adams / Martin McGuinness may or may not have the blood of dead children on their hands Nick Griffin seems almost day-time-tv presenter camp and innocuous by comparison




My question is , how do the two differ.?


What subtly / nuance aren't I seeing that makes a party like sinn fein more acceptable than the BNP?

What a question....this is really going to polarize peoples views and no doubt have lots of people ranting and raving.

The BNP are a bunch of racist thugs, a joke that nobody should take seriously or even discuss/debate they are just not worth it. As long as their members are getting state handouts they can blame all the countries ills on the migrants over a few beers down the pub.

The IRA/Sinn fein on the other hand, are a bunch of terrorists b*****ds, who have murdered over 3500 people, who have no compulsion of killing maiming and executing men women and children who do not agree with them.

The warrington bombing is an example of the death of depravity these scum will stoop, the ira telephoned a bomb warning but gave the site of the attack in a different city, the bombs were placed in cast iron litterbins to produce maximum shrapnel, one was at one end of a busy shopping street, the other at the other end, the 1st bomb exploded driving the shoppers into the path of the 2nd bomb. The attack was aimed at children out shopping to buy a mothers day card and presents, one child who died was still clutching the card he bought his mum.

But there are countless incidents this is just one, not the biggest, not the most deadliest, but an example. So we should not confuse the nationist causes of the BNP and Sinn Fein.