Nationalism

[BIG_DAVE]

I can't respond to your first posts or play devils advocate as I'm not familiar with the circumstances / causality of those events.

So you not being familiar with them means to you they don't matter? I provided you sources for you to read about what happened to you CAN familiarise your self with them.

So now you have NO excuse to ignore my post.

There are two sides to every story , I'm sure an informed member of the other community in n.i. ..how was it you described them in the chatroom.. huns?
(I had to goggle that term to realize it was a sectarian slur) could give there version of events.. i could piece the two versions together to form a likelier and more representative scenario.

Hun's are the british Army due to how the brutal way they acted in Ireland in the way of the acient group of the same name wiki link here A "hun" is also used for rangers fans in glasgow but the situation in my country runs a wee bit deeper than soccer in scotland.

If I were to use a slur I would of said "Orange" so and so as loyalists who are behind the Orange order who's marches are the cause of riots every year.



As it is the only information available to me is from a source i already know to be bias and bigoted.

I can only assume you mean yourself. I researched my argument and put it forward to you in way you could see the facts. If there is any truth to what you put in your last post find it for me on wiki.

As for disliking Irish people? (get a life you sad bastard)
hardly, my mother is from Dublin and i have relatives there.

Hmmm, I find it a little hard to swollow the fact that your so happy to imply the Irish are "terrorists" in the north and "nazi's" in the south and not have any disliking towards the Irish people. Again I notice you go to the name calling as your no longer to argue with maturity but I'd like to thank you his time for leaving out the bigoted comments. You can leave them to just shout at your pc screen.

I do however dislike terrorism and all forms and nationalism.

I can agree with you there witnessing several acts of terrorism committed by the british goverment in my country I know only too well how bad it is.

How about you post something critical about sinn fein instead to prove you're not the complete sycophant/ lemming i suspect you are?

I suggest you read my posts. if you had you'd see here that I said I don't support Sinn Fein.


Honestly, were you just hoping to have a load of people go along with you in bashing the Irish online? Is to you the only good Irishman the one who doesn't want freedom from british rule in his country?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

What a question....this is really going to polarize peoples views and no doubt have lots of people ranting and raving.

The BNP are a bunch of racist thugs, a joke that nobody should take seriously or even discuss/debate they are just not worth it. As long as their members are getting state handouts they can blame all the countries ills on the migrants over a few beers down the pub .

Couldn't agree with you more. Being an Irishman in england I've been subjected to abuse from those very men you speak of down the pub.

The IRA/Sinn fein on the other hand, are a bunch of terrorists b*****ds, who have murdered over 3500 people, who have no compulsion of killing maiming and executing men women and children who do not agree with them.

This however is compete nonsence, 3524 people died in total in what became known as the troubles. source here which just goes to showwith the IRA volunteers killed by the british army alone NOT including the hundreds of civilians murdered by them too by means of collusion with loyalist death squads or by such incidents as bloody sunday.

I suggest you read up on how the PIRA were formed and the situation the Irish were forced to live under in 1960's NI in this post here and

The warrington bombing is an example of the death of depravity these scum will stoop, the ira telephoned a bomb warning but gave the site of the attack in a different city, the bombs were placed in cast iron litterbins to produce maximum shrapnel, one was at one end of a busy shopping street, the other at the other end, the 1st bomb exploded driving the shoppers into the path of the 2nd bomb. The attack was aimed at children out shopping to buy a mothers day card and presents, one child who died was still clutching the card he bought his mum.

I believe your reading into chinese whispers regarding the child holing onto a mothers day card. If your dealing with a blast powerful enough to kill the child at the scene the blast would of taken his clothes off and the card was probably never found.

Deal with FACTS not emotions Warrington bomb attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bombs were placed into those bins as all bombs were in them days, which is why there are no bins in any airports or train stations these days, it's also why suit pockets are sewn up in good suit shops these days too from back then when the IRA would put bombs into pockets of clothes on racks.

As for the warning the IRA as with any army there is confusion, the same thing happened in the Omagh in 98 but that was the Real IRA who seem to have NO support any where.

When the british army call in an Air strike in afgan and kill civillians by getting it wrong it doesn't seem to be a terrorist attack.


I should point out before you start bashing me that my cousin was killed in Armagh by an IRA landmine ment for an army patrol vehical, by the army waved him through first and my cousin drove over it.

Did the IRA murder him? of course they didn't if there was no occupation of Ireland there'd be no resistance and no war and most definately no tragedy IN EITHER COUNTRY.

But there are countless incidents this is just one, not the biggest, not the most deadliest, but an example. So we should not confuse the nationist causes of the BNP and Sinn Fein.

Have a read of my posts and with a calm approach see if you can see why the IRA came to being, and see are they really the same as the BNP?

 

[Victoria]

I can't respond to your first posts or play devils advocate as I'm not familiar with the circumstances / causality of those events.

So you not being familiar with them means to you they don't matter? I provided you sources for you to read about what happened to you CAN familiarise your self with them.

So now you have NO excuse to ignore my post.

There are two sides to every story , I'm sure an informed member of the other community in n.i. ..how was it you described them in the chatroom.. huns?
(I had to goggle that term to realize it was a sectarian slur) could give there version of events.. i could piece the two versions together to form a likelier and more representative scenario.

Hun's are the british Army due to how the brutal way they acted in Ireland in the way of the acient group of the same name wiki link here A "hun" is also used for rangers fans in glasgow but the situation in my country runs a wee bit deeper than soccer in scotland.

If I were to use a slur I would of said "Orange" so and so as loyalists who are behind the Orange order who's marches are the cause of riots every year.



As it is the only information available to me is from a source i already know to be bias and bigoted.

I can only assume you mean yourself. I researched my argument and put it forward to you in way you could see the facts. If there is any truth to what you put in your last post find it for me on wiki.

As for disliking Irish people? (get a life you sad bastard)
hardly, my mother is from Dublin and i have relatives there.

Hmmm, I find it a little hard to swollow the fact that your so happy to imply the Irish are "terrorists" in the north and "nazi's" in the south and not have any disliking towards the Irish people. Again I notice you go to the name calling as your no longer to argue with maturity but I'd like to thank you his time for leaving out the bigoted comments. You can leave them to just shout at your pc screen.

I do however dislike terrorism and all forms and nationalism.

I can agree with you there witnessing several acts of terrorism committed by the british goverment in my country I know only too well how bad it is.

How about you post something critical about sinn fein instead to prove you're not the complete sycophant/ lemming i suspect you are?

I suggest you read my posts. if you had you'd see here that I said I don't support Sinn Fein.


Honestly, were you just hoping to have a load of people go along with you in bashing the Irish online? Is to you the only good Irishman the one who doesn't want freedom from british rule in his country?

I'm done trying to reason with you. your political ideology lacks self criticism and balance.

Your perverted idea of nationality unabated will destroy the northern part of ireland and possibly drag down the largely progressive and peaceful southern parts too in the process.

The hinges are coming off the gates, the terrorist monsters / puppets sinn fein created once pulled the strings of and used to do their bidding outside of the communities it isolated and controlled on a regime of vigilante tyranny , unspeakable violence and anti british sentiment are revolting. the hell hounds no longer look to sinn fein and seem only a few bomb attempts away from an unadulterated murder spree in their quest to "liberate ireland".

the only irony it seems is sinn fein according to an article i happended upon on google news last week proposed /are in the process of trying to pass an act which if passed will recede one of the most basic democratic liberties"freedom of assembly" presumably to quell and penalize (using a British police force / institution whose officers they once advocated the cold blooded murder of) the feral murderous element of their communities they no longer control being able to assemble in large groups legally and tarnish their very well cultivated image of peaceful meek Irish catholic victim.

which is understandable considering Irish tri-colour waving fascist isn't quite so palatable to international audiences ..:wink:

 

[Jason]

Someone above asked me for clarification on a point.

The referendums over the Good Friday Agreement were held in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic on the same day in 1998. In Northern Ireland 81% voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. In the Irish Irepublic 94% voted to amend the constitution of the Irish Republic to take out the constitutional claim to the six counties of Northern Ireland.

This constitutes overwhelming support at the ballot box for the peace process and for the Good Friday Agreement. This is the future. We have to turn our backs on the destructive nationalism repeated by some of the posts above. Both communities in Northern Ireland hurt. Both communities have had atrocities against them committed by the other side. Both communities believe they are the victim. Both communities have responsibility for terrible actions their community has committed. Both communities have a partial - perhaps understandably partial - view of history which sees them as more sinned against than sinning.

We have to avoid falling back into a bloodbath. The bombs in the last fortnight and the tensions around the 12th July marching season remind us just how easy that backsliding would be.

The Irish Republic has recognised Northern Ireland - or at least 94% of its people have. 81% of the people of Northern Ireland voted for the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process. At every election in Northern Ireland since the creation of Northern Ireland a majority of people have voted for parties which support union with the United Kingdom. The EU accepts the boundaries of the UK and the Irish Republic. There is no UN dispute or dispute under international law, or in the legal systems of the UK or Ireland.

In international terms the terrorists of IRA, Continuity IRA and others are just that - terrorists. They are not patriots, freedom fighters or the like. Rather they are murderers. The problems before and after the fourmation of the Irish Republic are now before the time of most people alive today.

Sinn Fein get an amazing level of support in the Irish Republic, Northern Ireland and internationally, particularly in the USA. In the Irish Republic they still capitalise on their actions of a century ago when they did much to forge the Irish Republic, and the two main Irish Republic political parties acknowledge their heritage in Sinn Fein. In Northern Ireland they appeal to the politics of hate which have been created by the problems. Sadly people find it easier to hate than to build bridges. Outside of the island of Ireland their support is down to PR. How so many US citizens are able to support a Marxist party that has run a terrorist "army" I cannot imagine - a party that still runs the drug mafia and bully boy gangs of the Bogside and West Belfast (and elsewhere). The idea of a reunion of Ireland against the wishes of the people north and south and run by a Marxist bunch of murderers should be repugnant to everyone. Yet Sinn Fein have somehow got the PR right.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I'm done trying to reason with you. your political ideology lacks self criticism and balance.

I've yet to see you once look at my posts with examples of how the british behaved in Ireland and say anything. Your posts have no reason, you hate sinn fein cuz they are in favour of no british rule in Ireland is all I can see.

Are you under the impression that the Irish have been better off under british rule with the likes of bloody sunday and such massacres??

Your perverted idea of nationality unabated will destroy the northern part of ireland and possibly drag down the largely progressive and peaceful southern parts too in the process.


The only time the southern parts of Ireland have been effected where when then sunnydale agreement of 1973, and 33 civillians were killed by bombs planted by british paramilitary groups.

The sunnydale agreement was an idea by the british goverment for Irish and british groups in NI to share power, the bombs were planted by british paramilitarys with help from the army of were in collusion with them and unionist workers went on strike forcing NI to a standstill as they were so Adiment they did want the Irish people of the 6 counties to have a say in "thier country"


The hinges are coming off the gates, the terrorist monsters / puppets sinn fein created once pulled the strings of and used to do their bidding outside of the communities it isolated and controlled on a regime of vigilante tyranny , unspeakable violence and anti british sentiment are revolting. the hell hounds no longer look to sinn fein and seem only a few bomb attempts away from an unadulterated murder spree in their quest to "liberate ireland".

First off if your knew anything about the situation in NI (which you dont) You'd know the British isolated communites in by thier actions leading to the riots of 69 and after wards by incidents as bloody sunday and the 1000 odd other civilians killed by the british army.

Secondly there's no Anti british sentiment is there? where have you seen that? Wanting independce from britian is not anti british.


Who are these "hell hounds" you speak of?? If you mean the Continuity IRA they have thier own politial wings.

the only irony it seems is sinn fein according to an article i happended upon on google news last week proposed /are in the process of trying to pass an act which if passed will recede one of the most basic democratic liberties"freedom of assembly" presumably to quell and penalize (using a British police force / institution whose officers they once advocated the cold blooded murder of) the feral murderous element of their communities they no longer control being able to assemble in large groups legally and tarnish their very well cultivated image of peaceful meek Irish catholic victim.
which is understandable considering Irish tri-colour waving fascist isn't quite so palatable to international audiences..:wink:


You'll have to provide me with a link to that , I'm not sure what your talking about. By the way you did see in my last post I don't support sinn fein didn't you? or do you just ignore what I write and go on bigoted anti Irish reupublican rants?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Someone above asked me for clarification on a point.

The referendums over the Good Friday Agreement were held in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic on the same day in 1998. In Northern Ireland 81% voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. In the Irish Irepublic 94% voted to amend the constitution of the Irish Republic to take out the constitutional claim to the six counties of Northern Ireland.

This was done on the grounds that the Irish Republic now has a equal say as what happens in the north as the british goverment does also with the british troops withdraw from operations in NI and the border is taken down.

In someways "Northern Ireland" is just words as without the troops and the border it's just like anywhere else in the 32 counties until you get to flashpoint area's.

And in someways the IRA achieved the unitied Ireland seen as a tourist with no knowledge would ever know there's ment to be two countrys on the island.

This constitutes overwhelming support at the ballot box for the peace process and for the Good Friday Agreement. This is the future. We have to turn our backs on the destructive nationalism repeated by some of the posts above. Both communities in Northern Ireland hurt. Both communities have had atrocities against them committed by the other side. Both communities believe they are the victim. Both communities have responsibility for terrible actions their community has committed. Both communities have a partial - perhaps understandably partial - view of history which sees them as more sinned against than sinning.

Communites yes I agree with you there.Now how about countries? The worst of all atrocites were commited by the british army in Ireland yet there are very few brits who would put thier hands up to what has been done in the name of britian. Remember bloody sunday was a welcome gesture by the british goverment but it was only the tip of the iceberg of acts committed by the british army.

We have to avoid falling back into a bloodbath. The bombs in the last fortnight and the tensions around the 12th July marching season remind us just how easy that backsliding would be.

Agreed. I think the parades commission hads been doing a great job so far if only they could just fix the problems with the ardoyne in belfast I'm pretty sure the riots would almost dissapear completely in somecases.

The Irish Republic has recognised Northern Ireland - or at least 94% of its people have. 81% of the people of Northern Ireland voted for the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process. At every election in Northern Ireland since the creation of Northern Ireland a majority of people have voted for parties which support union with the United Kingdom. The EU accepts the boundaries of the UK and the Irish Republic. There is no UN dispute or dispute under international law, or in the legal systems of the UK or Ireland.

Your wrong with voting in the 6 counties, I replied to your last post with the facts but you seem to have missed it so I'll give you them again.

Sinn Fein was the party with the most number of votes, however the seats are divded up in such a manner the unionists stay in power. A few months after the elections they tried to have the voting system changed, remember only antrim has a majority of unionists every other county is nationalist.

The figures are from the BBC website here

In international terms the terrorists of IRA, Continuity IRA and others are just that - terrorists. They are not patriots, freedom fighters or the like. Rather they are murderers. The problems before and after the fourmation of the Irish Republic are now before the time of most people alive today.

They are an Army and as with any army deal with murder, british or Irish. But I get the impression you ignored my other posts/ try and read with an open mind my first post and my second post to you and tell me if you was a nationalist in the 6 counties what would YOU want to happen?


Sinn Fein get an amazing level of support in the Irish Republic, Northern Ireland and internationally, particularly in the USA. In the Irish Republic they still capitalise on their actions of a century ago when they did much to forge the Irish Republic, and the two main Irish Republic political parties acknowledge their heritage in Sinn Fein.

I was under the impression Sinn Fein got hardly any politcal backing in the south, where's FF were beginning to break into the north. Voting on political things in the republic still covers 32 counties.

The states of course they do, but they have the facts on the situation on NI I remember in 2002(I think??) when the siege of short strand in east belfast was going on where a small cul-de-sac of Irish nationals surrounded by 10's of thousands of protestant familys was held to siege for a summer by loyalists to try and get the IRA out of ceasefire and protect the nationalists. They didn't and bill clinton made a statement on the us news saying "it (the attacks) was the last grasp of a dying (orange) order." As it was well publised in the us media and funny enough not at all in the british media.

In Northern Ireland they appeal to the politics of hate which have been created by the problems. Sadly people find it easier to hate than to build bridges. Outside of the island of Ireland their support is down to PR. How so many US citizens are able to support a Marxist party that has run a terrorist "army" I cannot imagine - a party that still runs the drug mafia and bully boy gangs of the Bogside and West Belfast (and elsewhere). The idea of a reunion of Ireland against the wishes of the people north and south and run by a Marxist bunch of murderers should be repugnant to everyone. Yet Sinn Fein have somehow got the PR right.

In my last reply to you I asked you to provide evidence of the PIRA's activity of drugs. Paramilitares HAVE been convicted of drug offences, usually loyalists ones. There was in dublin a INLA man arrested over drugs and the INLA branch was shut down.

This terrorist word just annoys me, it's like the british are saying we can do what ever we want to you and dont you dare try and come back at us or you'll be a terrorist if you do the same to us.


Sinn feins PR was created by the fact the british for years showed PRO brit propaganda in the news. They are told what to report on subjects in NI. The rest of the world with it's own reporters in NI were not subjected to the same guidelines when reporting so the FACTS were told around the world.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Jason]

I look forward to your reply.

I'm not getting into a punch bag discussion. There is too much history, too much suffering on both sides.

Right now we have a realistic hope of a better future. It isn't perfect for anyone, we all know there are plenty of problems, but on balance Northern Ireland since 1998 has been a tremendous lot better than Northern Ireland in the quarter century or so before.

In the new order the British Prime Minister says sorry for Bloody Sunday. No it doesn't solve it or make it all go away, but it is a step. We look to the future.

Nationalism isn't part of any peaceful future. Sinn Fein has a legacy over half a century as a force for evil in Northern Ireland. Not the only force for evil of course, but one of them. Something like one person in four in NI actually votes for them, which in my view is tribute to their PR skills. The difference between SF and the BNP is that SF have in many ways won the PR battle and do get significant support.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I'm not getting into a punch bag discussion. There is too much history, too much suffering on both sides.

Right now we have a realistic hope of a better future. It isn't perfect for anyone, we all know there are plenty of problems, but on balance Northern Ireland since 1998 has been a tremendous lot better than Northern Ireland in the quarter century or so before.

In the new order the British Prime Minister says sorry for Bloody Sunday. No it doesn't solve it or make it all go away, but it is a step. We look to the future.

Nationalism isn't part of any peaceful future. Sinn Fein has a legacy over half a century as a force for evil in Northern Ireland. Not the only force for evil of course, but one of them. Something like one person in four in NI actually votes for them, which in my view is tribute to their PR skills. The difference between SF and the BNP is that SF have in many ways won the PR battle and do get significant support.

I was thinking you head your head screwed on about the situation till that last part of your post.

before I was born a relative of mine was in new york in the mid to late 70's. the relative in question was and still to this has no feelings for or against the IRA and was out visiting a friend who moved out there and was waiting for a mate of thiers who worked in the nypd.

They were waiting in the offices with all the other policemen while thier pay packets were handed out and a pot was passed around for money to be sent back to Ireland to help with "the struggle". The money went to sinn fein, now granted around half the police were from Irish backgrounds everyone chipped a few bob.

This was becuase the news reported accuately as to what was going on in america and the US have known for sometime what was going on there. There was NO PR battle there. it wasn't needed.


The BNP are indescriminate in there indescrimination of race and ethnic background if you want to live in britian. Sinn fein represent the peoples army of a ethinic group oppressed for generations wanted to break free from there oppressers. THAT is the difference between the two.


You've been ill informed if you think the case is otherwise.

 

[Jason]

Yes the USA in effect funded Sinn Fein IRA, a party with a marxist ideology in league with a terrorist "army" and buying arms from Libya. It took 9/11 to change minds in the USA.

Now we have to look to the future. If Sinn Fein can reform themsleves into a peace-loving and democratic political group then they have a place in that future. If they can't they don't. The Sinn Fein of the years up to 1998 was an evil group of terrorist murderers with superlative PR. If they have managed to repent their sins then that is just great. But I'm still not trusting them enough to vote for them and I'm sad that anyone does. They are the past, the past that needs to be dead and buried.

Let the island of Ireland move forward into a new age of peace and love.

 

[freyasworld]

Couldn't agree with you more. Being an Irishman in england I've been subjected to abuse from those very men you speak of down the pub.





This however is compete nonsence, 3524 people died in total in what became known as the troubles. source here which just goes to showwith the IRA volunteers killed by the british army alone NOT including the hundreds of civilians murdered by them too by means of collusion with loyalist death squads or by such incidents as bloody sunday.

I suggest you read up on how the PIRA were formed and the situation the Irish were forced to live under in 1960's NI in this post here and




I believe your reading into chinese whispers regarding the child holing onto a mothers day card. If your dealing with a blast powerful enough to kill the child at the scene the blast would of taken his clothes off and the card was probably never found.

Deal with FACTS not emotions Warrington bomb attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bombs were placed into those bins as all bombs were in them days, which is why there are no bins in any airports or train stations these days, it's also why suit pockets are sewn up in good suit shops these days too from back then when the IRA would put bombs into pockets of clothes on racks.

As for the warning the IRA as with any army there is confusion, the same thing happened in the Omagh in 98 but that was the Real IRA who seem to have NO support any where.

When the british army call in an Air strike in afgan and kill civillians by getting it wrong it doesn't seem to be a terrorist attack.


I should point out before you start bashing me that my cousin was killed in Armagh by an IRA landmine ment for an army patrol vehical, by the army waved him through first and my cousin drove over it.

Did the IRA murder him? of course they didn't if there was no occupation of Ireland there'd be no resistance and no war and most definately no tragedy IN EITHER COUNTRY.


Have a read of my posts and with a calm approach see if you can see why the IRA came to being, and see are they really the same as the BNP?

they are most definately not the same, the dragging up of ancient and painful history is not helpful to anyone and just further propogates the anti british or anti loyalist feelings, and the IRA - whatever name they go by are just a bunch of murdering thugs out for their own greed.

If you want to blame anybody for the troubles then it was most definately Henry 11.

By the way I am originally from Limerick and I was convent educated too and so is all my family!

Now the republic of Ireland is a member of the EU, that means every citizen of the EU has the right to live and work in any member state and be free from persecution, oppression and violence, able to worship whoever they want, regardless of religious persuasion. The people voted for that and got it!

So deal with it. If there's a bunch of rabid dogs, murdering and killing innocent men women and children they should be put down! regardless what colour they are or what religion they are. But blaming things that happened 40 years ago, 90 years ago or even a thousand years ago is absolutely pointless and ludicrous! Seriously the IRA Sinn Fein and the reasons for the troubles is a fucking joke!

Now the people have voted and demanded and end to the troubles, if the IRA don't like it they can fuck off and die, or at least send back their benefits.

Now there are victims on all sides and neither side were whiter than white, whether they be the English, loyalists or republicans. It was a war of attrition. But it is over, deal with it, no matter how painful it is.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

Yes the USA in effect funded Sinn Fein IRA, a party with a marxist ideology in league with a terrorist "army" and buying arms from Libya. It took 9/11 to change minds in the USA.

Now we have to look to the future. If Sinn Fein can reform themsleves into a peace-loving and democratic political group then they have a place in that future. If they can't they don't. The Sinn Fein of the years up to 1998 was an evil group of terrorist murderers with superlative PR. If they have managed to repent their sins then that is just great. But I'm still not trusting them enough to vote for them and I'm sad that anyone does. They are the past, the past that needs to be dead and buried.

Let the island of Ireland move forward into a new age of peace and love.

Ok I understand you wouldn't vote for sinn fein, (I can only assume your from NI) but why does it make you sad that anyone in the Irish community does vote for them?

As a republican my self I know that sinn fein are the most british friendly group. And as a Unionist(I'm guessing) you'd know about the voting situation in NI(you don't vote for who you want to get in you vote for who you DONT want to get in daft I know but there you go).

Now I think the unionist community need to take responsibilty for it's actions over the years, by this I mean the british mobs who went burning Irish people out of house and home, the PSNI/RUC who WERE the unionist community escorting the mobs in and backing them while they carried out thier campaigns of sectarian hated and indoing so gave birth to IRA.

NI like anywhere in the world is cause and effect, the sectarian attitudes of the unionist community towards the nationalists and outright bigotry from the goverment in power at the time caused the backlash being the IRA.

Putting the past behind is all well and good but it needs to done properly from all 3 sides republican/loyalist and the british goverment for thing to move on. It should be a hard thing to do if it's done properly as anything in this world worth doing is never easy.

Now having the upbringing in the almost completely nationalist city I'm from and living on a mixed street as a kid as well as my father encouraging us to play soccer as well as GAA I've never really had much in the way of anti Irish sectarian abuse/violence against me from protestants (british Army excluded) so I've never really been Anti protestant. So when I met lads from belfast on a job I was from in wales I couldn't really understand the hostility towards me these lads showed. It was only when a lad from antrim asked me why I'd talk to them and I said why wouldn't I, they're from home ain't they? he replied they're prods. I said aye I know and to behonest was a bit pissed off with his attitude. He said you think they wanna talk to you? your only a taig to them. Then it all became clear and hit me like a ton of bricks, no politics were mentioned and before I opened my mouth the hatred was there for me purely for what I was rather than who I am.


Now where I'm from had the highest level of IRA activity at the time which ment the army were shitting themselves daily(as would anyone else who's life is in immenent danger and as I'm sure over most of 6 counties) which led to panic and a lack of disipline. Which then in turn led mistakes being made, civillians being killed for no reason as the soldier can no longer function due to fear.
I've seen my fair share of blood shed over the years at the hands of the army alone. Now to witness the very same from mobs backed by people ment to be keeping the peace I just cannot imagine the hatred that must still burn in these people and to be still subjected to things like the orange marches where they're prisoners in they're own home is just rubbing sault in the wounds.

Yet sinn fein can look past this and to a brighter future, even though I don't like them I can still admire them for doing so.



Now this whole forget the past and look to the future I agree with but this bigoty thats still rife in the police force and very much anti nationalist is dragging the back not to mention the way the voting seats are allocated.


If there as something along the lines of an all Ireland police force that sinn fein were trying to get in as well as 6 county voting I'd be 100% against the IRA but I'm afraid it doesn't matter what the ruc/psni are called it's the same ideals that are there and while they are I'm against the british occupation of Ireland as there's still not the equality there should be.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

they are most definately not the same, the dragging up of ancient and painful history is not helpful to anyone and just further propogates the anti british or anti loyalist feelings, and the IRA - whatever name they go by are just a bunch of murdering thugs out for their own greed.


I take it you must know very little about the situation in NI to come to that conclusion. The IRA were made nesserecy by the actions of the loyalist sectarian mobs backed by a bigoted police force. It must be very easy for you to think that the IRA that liberated the 26 countes by using different tactics but you'd be wrong as the british media never gave you histroy lessons at school.


If you want to blame anybody for the troubles then it was most definately Henry 11.

Wouldn't he be blame for the occupation of Ireland? I very much doubt he's behind the bitter sectairian attitudes of the loyalist community today.

By the way I am originally from Limerick and I was convent educated too and so is all my family!

Well I think we can both agree that we are scared of nuns then!

Now the republic of Ireland is a member of the EU, that means every citizen of the EU has the right to live and work in any member state and be free from persecution, oppression and violence, able to worship whoever they want, regardless of religious persuasion. The people voted for that and got it!

I'm not sure what your trying to say by that. That you don't have oppression in the 26 but haha you still have it in the six?

So deal with it. If there's a bunch of rabid dogs, murdering and killing innocent men women and children they should be put down! regardless what colour they are or what religion they are. But blaming things that happened 40 years ago, 90 years ago or even a thousand years ago is absolutely pointless and ludicrous! Seriously the IRA Sinn Fein and the reasons for the troubles is a fucking joke!

The Irish not having the chance to vote and being murdered, tortured and murned out of house and home in sectarian attacks at random is a joke to you then? You must be one of those people who either has no compassion or no intelligance.

Now the people have voted and demanded and end to the troubles, if the IRA don't like it they can fuck off and die, or at least send back their benefits.

The PIRA no longer exist. The people voted for equality(yet to be fully admistered) and so the IRA wouldn't be needed anymore. It's far from perfect but the situation is better than 10-15 years ago.

Now there are victims on all sides and neither side were whiter than white, whether they be the English, loyalists or republicans. It was a war of attrition. But it is over, deal with it, no matter how painful it is.

Must be great having an opinion on something you've not had to deal with first hand. See how many people your know and are close to you can watch murdered and THEN we'll have your thoughts on "dealing with it" after that.

Just so you know people are still being killed in sectarian attacks so although the troubles may offically be over, there's still no holiday atmosphere in NI.

 

[Jason]

In case anyone's interested I don't live in Northern Ireland or Ireland (and never have done), so I'm not able to vote for any of the NI or Irish political parties.

My point was that I see a vote for Sinn Fein as being as sad as a vote for BNP. Both are groups whose agenda is based on a nationalist agenda, and both have uncomfortable links with violence. Both appear to offer a creed based on hatred.

Sinn Fein's goal of a united Ireland is increasingly irrelevant within the context of the EU. We have an open border, free movement of labour, goods and services, access to the social security and health systems both sides. Their support in the Irish Republic is rather small, and understandably so as they seem of little relevance (though in my view a single vote for them is one to many). In NI they get about a quarter of the votes. I think it would be reasonable to gloss their electoral message as "vote for us and we will work to get one over those horrible British Unionists (your neighbours) who are responsible for everything that is wrong in your life". It is very like the BNP: ""vote for us and we will work to get one over those horrible black and Asian foreigners (your neighbours) who are responsible for everything that is wrong in your life". Nationalism is wrong; the mindset is wrong.

In the last couple of weeks we've had bombs in London/Derry and Cookstown. Does anyone comprehend what they are about? Sinn Fein is actually in government (with the DUP) in NI. There is a mechanism for sorting out problems and inequalities which exist in NI. There is even a mechanism where with majority support NI could leave the UK, either as an independent country or to join the Irish Republic (if the Irish Republic were fool enough to accept them). The bombs seem no more than a statement that the Republican community hurts (of course it does) so its going to relieve its frustrations by trying to murder a few innocents. It is beyond any defence. In moving into the democratic arena Sinn Fein left behind nut jobs in groups like the Continuity IRA - but it is Sinn Fein/IRA who a couple of decades ago fostered these people.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

In case anyone's interested I don't live in Northern Ireland or Ireland (and never have done), so I'm not able to vote for any of the NI or Irish political parties.

So Ignoring my first reply to you was just plain ignorance then? You made points that were wrong which I corrected you on and flat out ignored them.

My point was that I see a vote for Sinn Fein as being as sad as a vote for BNP. Both are groups whose agenda is based on a nationalist agenda, and both have uncomfortable links with violence. Both appear to offer a creed based on hatred.


Well sorry to tell you this but you see it wrong. The fact that sinn fein are are in power in NI is testement to the fact they are ready and more than willing to work wth the people who's oppression and murdering caused the IRA to be in exisitance. Something which you still seem to be ignoring, at somepoint you'll have to open your eyes to the fact the IRA didn't just turn up one day. They were needed to protect the Irish people.




Sinn Fein's goal of a united Ireland is increasingly irrelevant within the context of the EU. We have an open border, free movement of labour, goods and services, access to the social security and health systems both sides.

That isn't sinn feins goal, it's the goal of the Irish in both sides of the border. Before you quote votes and anything else YOU addmitted you've never lived in Ireland where I have and I can tell you it's something EVERY Irishman in the 32 counties would love to see one day.


Their support in the Irish Republic is rather small, and understandably so as they seem of little relevance (though in my view a single vote for them is one to many).

Hating Sinn Fein without a proper understanding of them just makes you look stupid. Why are you so intent on blatently ignoring the reasons why there came to be?



In NI they get about a quarter of the votes.


They got more votes than any other party in the 2010 elections why do you reply to my posts when you clearly do not read them?


I think it would be reasonable to gloss their electoral message as "vote for us and we will work to get one over those horrible British Unionists (your neighbours) who are responsible for everything that is wrong in your life". It is very like the BNP: ""vote for us and we will work to get one over those horrible black and Asian foreigners (your neighbours) who are responsible for everything that is wrong in your life". Nationalism is wrong; the mindset is wrong.

It would be reasonable to assume that if you were uneducated in the matter which you clearly are. The thing that annoys me is there is ample material in this thread alone for you to educate yourself with yet you don't as you appear to be to ignorant to.

Sinn Feins campaign for the end of partition is so we can live without british rule as we no longer wish to be under it due to the british goverment time and time again throughout the ages proving they are not capable of running our country.

Sinn Fein = Anti british GOVERMENT.
BNP = anti foreign PEOPLE.

thats as simple as it can be put, what can't you understand about that?

In the last couple of weeks we've had bombs in London/Derry and Cookstown. Does anyone comprehend what they are about? Sinn Fein is actually in government (with the DUP) in NI. There is a mechanism for sorting out problems and inequalities which exist in NI.

I could actually thump you for your ignorance. I've already explained what these attacks are about and won't again.

There is even a mechanism where with majority support NI could leave the UK, either as an independent country or to join the Irish Republic (if the Irish Republic were fool enough to accept them).

There is no way loyalists would ever give up being part of the UK, if you knew your history there was talk of them becoming ther own country but they gave that up with the GFA in 98. Which is why there's no border in Ireland any more.



The bombs seem no more than a statement that the Republican community hurts (of course it does) so its going to relieve its frustrations by trying to murder a few innocents. It is beyond any defence. In moving into the democratic arena Sinn Fein left behind nut jobs in groups like the Continuity IRA - but it is Sinn Fein/IRA who a couple of decades ago fostered these people.

British forces occupying Ireland are hardly innocent, they carry weapons at all times. Anyone can resist british rule by any means they see fit. Sinn fein are just doing what the Official IRA did in the 60's and 70's the Provisional IRA split from them

When the PIRA said they were going to make a deal with the british they then had a split in the PIRA and the CIRA were formed in 96 I think it was.


If you go back to the official IRA they split from the IRA who liberated the 26 counties from the british so you can now call the republic "terrorists" as it seems your more interested in branding people than actually finding out the situation from anyone's perspective other than your own.

 

[Jason]

I've decided that the best way to wind up Big Dave is not to read his posts.

Another way to wind him up is that I can put forward the unthinkable option for the island of Ireland:

* Euro woes are substantial. Sovereign debt default by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland are all possibilities. A default would almost certainly lead to the country being forced to leave the Euro. Of course this is unthinkable, but I'm giving the unthinkable option!

*Outside the Euro these countries would be forced to float a fiat currency. As they have irrevocably given their reserves to the Eurozone this would be based on IOUs which would make them very weak. Possibly Club Med would work together with some sort of "Southern Euro", with some sort of critical mass. Who knows, it is all speculation.

* Ireland would be in a bind. Its economy doesn't fit with Club Med. The pragmatic solution would be to work on a floating peg with sterling - back to the punt therefore. Of course in a post-Euro-breakup world there would be a need for "economic governance" as the EU calls it (in past years the UK and Ireland didn't bother with this). Economic governance in this circumstance would need a committee from the four home nations of the UK, plus Ireland, perhaps plus Channel Islands and Isle of Man. It would in effect create a supra-national body, a sort of "Council of the Isles". If there was agreement that sovereign debt could be issued only by this one body then we would in effect have a re-unification of Ireland.

This is an unthinkable scenario. Yet the geo-political reality is that the nations of our islands need to work together, and geo-politics makes a "Council of the Isles" sensible. My personal view is that nine times out of ten economic reality directs politics. I think it is within the bounds of possibility.

I can see political parties in Great Britain and the Irish Republic getting behind a politically necessary decision on these lines. I imagine DUP, UUP and SDLP would agonise but probably support. I wonder if Sinn Fein would support? It would give a form of a united Ireland which is what they claim is what they want. Or are they so entrenched in the politics of hate that they would oppose a big step towards Irish unity because it meant working with the governments of both the UK and the Irish Republic?

 

[B_crackoff]

I find you distasteful to put it mildly.

My opinions dolt!

Your opinions while you're entitled to them of course are perverse and worrying.

Well you're the one with the BNP solution to dissent - send them all back to Ireland!
If you cannot distinguish between ideas of innocuous national pride and populist political ideologies that in the absence of tangible rationale to justify their "cause" resort to vilifying and dehumanizing other human beings that do not qualify or fit whatever pseudo "race" they create for cynical political purposes and claim to be ambassadors and "liberators". of...

See, you've been sucked in by an idealogical hatred of nationality, where it is only a continuance of community. Exactly who has this policy? Please show me a direct link - & back up what you claim.


Hitler made those claims. Stalin made those claims.

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Bill Clinton, George Bush & Barrack Obama have made these claims too!
they're obvious examples but germane when discussing historical instances of nationalist ideology.

No - they are examples of empire idealogy. The Nazis wanted a Greater German Empire, & the Russians an International Communist Community(or empire)

National pride and militant murderous nationalism aren't the same thing.
You speak of "internationalism" ireland would not be viable economic entity were it not for the eu and the investment and money it's generously pumped into it.

Well it survived long before that. Despite a 700 year Nazi / Stalinistic purge of indigenous peoples by the British Crown.Lol

The "Celtic" tiger would be anemic and in it's death throws if Ireland moved away from this internationalism you speak about...

it obviously has it benefits.

Well the Celtic Tiger is already dying. You clearly don't even know that the Chief of the Garda accused the political classes of ruining the nation, bribery, corruption, & saddling the nation with an insurmountable debt, following a bank bail out that dwarves anyother percentage wise.
Nationalism is an unhealthy ideology. the pages of history bare this out.
Learn from those instances instead of propagating arrogantly presented specious nonsense.

Empire building is unhealthier by far. Not pages, but entire encyclopedias worth of history bear this to be true.

The wanton destruction of other peoples & cultures without consent.

The Babylonians, Macedonians, Chinese, Mughals, Mongols, Aztec, Romans, British, French, German, Nazi, Communist, US, & now the international finance driven EU, AU, & prospective NAU.

So empires are OK, but people's right to self determination isn't.

The anti anykind of nationalism is stoke by the funds & media controlling the push towards Federalism.

It's hardly unbiased. It's always biased, & there are lots of easily led people shilling for that cause.

There is nothing more diverse than different countries having different dominant cultures. That's what makes humanity so interesting, & travel so exciting.

If diversity of thought isn't accepted, who gives a shit about diversity of creed or colour?

 

[BIG_DAVE]

I've decided that the best way to wind up Big Dave is not to read his posts.

Not to mention make yourself look like an ignorant fool.

Another way to wind him up is that I can put forward the unthinkable option for the island of Ireland:

* Euro woes are substantial. Sovereign debt default by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland are all possibilities. A default would almost certainly lead to the country being forced to leave the Euro. Of course this is unthinkable, but I'm giving the unthinkable option!

*Outside the Euro these countries would be forced to float a fiat currency. As they have irrevocably given their reserves to the Eurozone this would be based on IOUs which would make them very weak. Possibly Club Med would work together with some sort of "Southern Euro", with some sort of critical mass. Who knows, it is all speculation.

* Ireland would be in a bind. Its economy doesn't fit with Club Med. The pragmatic solution would be to work on a floating peg with sterling - back to the punt therefore. Of course in a post-Euro-breakup world there would be a need for "economic governance" as the EU calls it (in past years the UK and Ireland didn't bother with this). Economic governance in this circumstance would need a committee from the four home nations of the UK, plus Ireland, perhaps plus Channel Islands and Isle of Man. It would in effect create a supra-national body, a sort of "Council of the Isles". If there was agreement that sovereign debt could be issued only by this one body then we would in effect have a re-unification of Ireland.

This is an unthinkable scenario. Yet the geo-political reality is that the nations of our islands need to work together, and geo-politics makes a "Council of the Isles" sensible. My personal view is that nine times out of ten economic reality directs politics. I think it is within the bounds of possibility. I didn't bother reading that as it's nothing to do with whats actually happened and why your bigoted against the Irish people. Which if your against sinn fein and you've read how they came to be you must be.

 

[Jason]

I didn't bother reading that as it's nothing to do with whats actually happened and why your bigoted against the Irish people. Which if your against sinn fein and you've read how they came to be you must be.

What a lovely demonstration of all that is wrong with Nationalism! Anyone who is against Sinn Fein is a bigot!

We're talking about the group that has a long and deep relationship with the IRA, internationally considered to be terrorists. This is the group responsible for the terrorist murder of thousands of civilians and maiming of thousands more. This is the group that tried to destroy the UK government by blowing up the Grand Hotel Brighton when Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet were there - and the group that tried to put a missile in 10, Downing Street. But anyone who criticises them gets called a bigot.

And in Lurgan over the weekend three children were injured by a bomb from an IRA splinter group - the fifth bomb in two weeks. The children were aged 12, 12 and 2. The injuries are minor, but they might not have been. But anyone who criticises the evil people who planted this bomb risks being called a bigot because of course they are supporting the cuddly Republican cause that has such great PR.

Nationalism uses history as a perverse justification. But the problems of NI today cannot be justfied in this way. The whole world has had its tragedies and its injusticies, its invasions and battles and famines. The problems of Ireland are not "caused" by Henry I or the Battle of the Boyne or the Potato Famine or the Fenians or the Unionists or Bloody Sunday or anything else. They are caused by people who dwell on their hatred. We now have a robust political process in NI with full support in the Irish Republic which is a way of resolving whatever wrongs there are in NI. We all need to get behind it. So someone in the Republican community feels hurt? Right, lets sort it out. There is a mechanism. It isn't perfect, but it isn't bad either.

The politics of hatred and the politics of nationalism have no place, and it is up to every one of us in every situation to take a stand against them. Sinn Fein's embracing of democracy and renunciation of terrorist violence is to be applauded. But the idea that anyone who criticises them is a bigot is beyond defence.

Sinn Fein do demonstrate the danger of nationalism. Their support in NI is significant. They have won the PR battle. The big worry is that groups like BNP could do it in Great Britain. It could be that something as simple as employing a PR company could give them the sort of support that Sinn Fein now have. Now that is truly frightening!

 

[freyasworld]

So you think it is ok to try and murder 2 twelve year old girls and their 2 year old sister on their way to buy a loaf of bread in Lurgan then!

I rest my case - rabid dogs that tried to murder innocent children, they should be hunted to the ends of the earth and put to death! There is no place for these scum in any society.

We should not be comparing them to the BNP but rather the Taliban.

If the children were killed, what would happen.... father brother mother uncle etc etc all out for bloody revenge, it is self propogating violence.

Time for these mongrels to get a job and join the human race or get off the planet and there is no way that this can be justified.

 

[BIG_DAVE]

So you think it is ok to try and murder 2 twelve year old girls and their 2 year old sister on their way to buy a loaf of bread in Lurgan then!


Of course I don't and I'd put mony on the IRA not wanting to either, but you as well me do NOT know it was the IRA that planted the thing.

Another point to make is that was NOTHING TO DO WITH SINN FEIN.


I rest my case - rabid dogs that tried to murder innocent children, they should be hunted to the ends of the earth and put to death! There is no place for these scum in any society.

I'm fairly sure if the IRA did plant the device, it would be to kill members of the PSNI rather than kids.

We should not be comparing them to the BNP but rather the Taliban.

I'm sure with the knowledge you have on all 3 you could also compare them to button moon for all your shown your education on the matter to be.

If the children were killed, what would happen.... father brother mother uncle etc etc all out for bloody revenge, it is self propogating violence.

Really? it must of just started out of no where. What a stupid thing to say.

Time for these mongrels to get a job and join the human race or get off the planet and there is no way that this can be justified.

Time for the british rule to end in Ireland and you'd see these attacks dissapear but you seem pretty quick to forget what happened to the Irish people.


I noticed like the other two people arguing with me on here, you've not the brains to actually reply to what I say, just spout shite instead of taking the points I've made on board and arguing them.