Nationalized Healthcare-unconstitutional?

B_VinylBoy

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You can buy health care stock.

Really?
Here are the current stock prices for some of our Health Insurance firms:

Wellpoint (WLP) - 56.56
Aetna (AET) - 30.19
Amerigroup (AGP) - 46.28
UnitedHealth (UNH) - 35.33
Cigna (CI) - 37.00

Without going into the obvious math (because I know you'd simply ignore it, making it a complete waste of my time), do you know how many shares of stock the average poor/working class person would need to buy in order to see any significant financial growth playing the stock market and purchasing heath care stock? Never mind the various necessities they would have to cut or live without just for the sake of gambling on the stock market?

Oy vey... :rolleyes:
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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Really?
Here are the current stock prices for some of our Health Insurance firms:

Wellpoint (WLP) - 56.56
Aetna (AET) - 30.19
Amerigroup (AGP) - 46.28
UnitedHealth (UNH) - 35.33
Cigna (CI) - 37.00

Without going into the obvious math (because I know you'd simply ignore it, making it a complete waste of my time), do you know how many shares of stock the average poor/working class person would need to buy in order to see any significant financial growth playing the stock market and purchasing heath care stock? Never mind the various necessities they would have to cut or live without just for the sake of gambling on the stock market?

Oy vey... :rolleyes:


about the same that welfare recipients sapent in a lifetime on lottery tickets. It'll take forever for me to have a million dolars so i should just spend what I have rather than save it. nice logic but just what i expect from you. if it's hard to do why try. just blame someone else and cry discrimination. what a sad way to live.
 

B_VinylBoy

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about the same that welfare recipients sapent in a lifetime on lottery tickets.

You've provided no proof of this so don't even speculate or assume here.
That is, unless, you can prove that not only all welfare recipients play the lottery but can also provide a monetary figure. And you can't.

It'll take forever for me to have a million dolars so i should just spend what I have rather than save it. nice logic but just what i expect from you. if it's hard to do why try.

First off, most people realize that they don't need to make a million dollars in order to live happily. That doesn't mean that nobody wouldn't try, but there's a difference between needs and wants, and a difference between making money and overall greed. Obviously, you don't know either of them. Also, I'm not the one suggesting that poor/working class people should play the stock market to make money. Just like blowing your wad on the lottery, blowing it on a chance at making money on the stock market is also just as irresponsible. Either way you look at it, they're still gambling... and that is a problem if they are foregoing the things they need in a desperate attempt to strike it rich.

Pay attention to who says what on the thread next time.

just blame someone else and cry discrimination. what a sad way to live.

No. This time I'm just gonna call you an insecure fool who can't read. Seriously, how many times are you going to try and infer that I'm speaking from the angle of a "victim" here? Don't get mad that I tell you a truth that you don't want to hear. :rolleyes:
 
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D_Davy_Downspout

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To quote another poster, I'll make this absurdly simple. People need resources, the only people that can create those resources are people, not the state. If you cannot rely on individuals to do this freely then forcing them to act in certain ways won't achieve anything, it's just an expensive exercise in crowd control.

This isn't true at all. Sorry.

Yes in an ideal world everything would be free and we'd all be nice to one another, but we don't live in an ideal world so the next best thing is profit: which allows people to achieve a fair reward for a fair days work.

What exactly is wrong with that?

People don't get a fair reward for their work, usually.

It's terribly ironic that you're saying stuff like that after saying we don't live in an ideal world. You just changed the ideals.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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The fact that Americans are having to rely on insurance to satisfy their healthcare needs at all concerns me, I'm a big believer in avoiding insurance unless it's a legal requirement. It may well socialise the losses for individuals, but the net cost of insurance will outweight the total value of medical procedures performed because those companies have significant overheads and need to generate their profits , they're an added -probably unnecessary- expense.

Instead of asking; how can we give people the money they need to cover their bills? Perhaps interested parties could start questioning why the cost of medical care is so expensive in the first place and tackle that. Throwing insurance money and government subsidies at it only inflates costs as providers tailor their prices to take advantage, they have absolutely no incentive to cut prices all the time they know the state will be there to make up the difference.

Insurance companies are almost certainly doing more harm than good, if I was an American I wouldn't be looking to them for help.

Edit to add, I remember watching an undercover investivgation into the British dental profession on the news, when some dentists were told the patient had insurance unsurprisingly they inflated their charges and offered unnecessary work so they could claim the maximum amount, clearly this pushes up the cost for those with no insurance as they have to compete with all this artificial demand.

American medical care is so expensive because of the for-profit private system. Simple as that. No other developed nation has a for-profit private system. Shit, the government can't even negotiate drug prices as an entity.

It's not hard to figure out why our system costs 2x as much.
 

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American medical care is so expensive because of the for-profit private system. Simple as that. No other developed nation has a for-profit private system. Shit, the government can't even negotiate drug prices as an entity.

It's not hard to figure out why our system costs 2x as much.


I was speaking to a colleague at work the other day, her sister runs a pub but she's having to close it down because margins are tight and she's unable to turnover a profit. That's taxes, skills, jobs and competition down the drain; other pubs have more scope for price increases now so add a bit of unhealthy inflation to the mix too.

That's the reality of a profitless environment, it puts people out of work. It's not something to be celebrated imo.
 

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This isn't true at all. Sorry.



People don't get a fair reward for their work, usually.

It's terribly ironic that you're saying stuff like that after saying we don't live in an ideal world. You just changed the ideals.


In the UK the gov't taxes 50% of the economy, that means if they got out the way all things being equal EVERYTHING in the economy would be 50% off. But instead we have incredible levels of taxation, and to offset the subsequent price increases government subsidies too, all because a few people are ideologically opposed to a free market.

Madness.
 

B_VinylBoy

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I was speaking to a colleague at work the other day, her sister runs a pub but she's having to close it down because margins are tight and she's unable to turnover a profit. That's taxes, skills, jobs and competition down the drain; other pubs have more scope for price increases now so add a bit of unhealthy inflation to the mix too.

That's the reality of a profitless environment, it puts people out of work. It's not something to be celebrated imo.

And being that I've been part of the club/bar industry for more than 20 years I will step in here. Although it's sad to see anyone of these places close (as it cuts down on opportunities for people such as myself to host a party or DJ), pubs usually do not shut down because others competitors are able to control the pricing of anything. Especially in cities like New York where there are far too many options for watering holes for any one establishment to set a standard.

Again, the main issue is greed. Everything a bar (or a pub) sells, whether it be a shot of vodka, a bottle of champagne, or even a bottle of water, is done at a huge markup and profit. Where I'm from, I know one bar that foregoes charging people for glasses of water, only charge up to $6 for a bottle beer, have amazing happy hour drink specials and always offer a few discounted drinks throughout the evening and usually charge no more than $10 for anything premium. At the same time, I know similar bars with the same amenities that force people to pay $5 for a bottle water (and offer no glasses of water), charge up to $10 for beer and even up to $15 for a mixed drink regardless if it's using top shelf liquor. Those bars come and go every 3-5 years, whereas the bar under the first example has been in existence for more than thirty.

During a recession, bars/clubs actually do better than most places since people still need a way to relax and have fun and these establishments provide a cheaper way to do it than trying to go on an actual vacation. You may want to use a different example here, because your colleague's pub is not a symbol of the changing economy by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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pubs usually do not shut down because others competitors are able to control the pricing of anything.

Once again you're reading what you want to read, not what I've actually written. I said that when her pub closes there's less competition around, and in a less competitive environment established companies may be able to put up their prices as there's less threat to their business.

But you're actually wrong with the point you made anyway, all participants influence the pricing mechanism. Some may have more control than others but they all play their part.



Again, the main issue is greed.
No it's not, profit as just economic information. If somebody is making a large profit it sends out signals that others may act upon, there's a greater incentive to reproduce a certain service if it yields a substantial profit; this mechanism helps lower prices and benefits the consumer.


Everything a bar (or a pub) sells, whether it be a shot of vodka, a bottle of champagne, or even a bottle of water, is done at a huge markup and profit.
A markup isn't the same thing as profit. What are their overheads?
 

B_VinylBoy

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Once again you're reading what you want to read, not what I've actually written.

Then perhaps you need to be more clear about what you say around here. It's not that hard to articulate a full statement where there is no room for misinterpretation.

But you're actually wrong with the point you made anyway, all participants influence the pricing mechanism. Some may have more control than others but they all play their part.

Bullshit. When it comes to bars & clubs, owners set their own prices based on their needs and expectations. When it comes to the price of alcohol, that doesn't increase or decrease just because some bars or clubs are able to make more off a bottle of Heineken than the other. Overall, people purchase more alcohol for their home & personal use than inside of a bar/club, and unless that changes the average pricing for it will not fluctuate much (if at all). There's a reason why some clubs that have a capacity in the thousands can survive for more than a decade purely on the sale of water, where other fully stocked bars with a capacity of a few hundred are closed within a few years. Believe me when I say that the bar/club game doesn't work the same as other corporate entities. Unless you have two decades of experience in the field like I do, it's best that you don't venture into how that industry works.

No it's not, profit as just economic information. If somebody is making a large profit it sends out signals that others may act upon, there's a greater incentive to reproduce a certain service if it yields a substantial profit; this mechanism helps lower prices and benefits the consumer.

Again... you don't know the difference between profit and greed.
Let me give you the most recent and most obvious example. The latest trend that has swept bars & clubs in America is the concept of bottle service. If you don't know what this is, bars & clubs now provide a waitstaff and a particular section of tables & chairs where people can be served drinks like if they were in a restaurant. This also allows the club establishment to sell more liquor and essentially make a bigger profit. From your angle, you see absolutely nothing wrong with that and think when I talk about people being greedy that I don't have a clue. But here's the effect of bottle service on the bar & club industry in a place like New York (and unless you live in a city that has as many bar & club options, I suggest that you stop trying to respond with your beliefs as if they will counter the facts).

The first few dance clubs that provided this service obviously made a lot of money. At the same time, they also had capacities in the thousands and had dedicated space for people who wanted to go out with a large group of friends and be waited on that didn't interfere with the regular workflow of a night club and its patrons that didn't want to go out and buy a bottle. Over time, these club owners got GREEDY and increased their bottle service areas, further sacrificing seating and dance floor space that all patrons had access to. On top of this, the price for regular cocktails if you didn't buy a bottle went up. Before this all started, it was OK for someone to go to a club alone or with one friend, pay a cover charge, get one or two drinks, dance and have a great night out. Now, these same establishments won't even let certain people in unless they opt to buy a bottle. Of course, that wouldn't be a problem if people went in larger groups. That way, the cost for the bottle could be split between several people and the price for alcohol would be on par to what you would usually spend at the bar anyhow. But then club owners responded and limited the number of people who could come under the purchase of one bottle. Before, you could go out with 6 people and purchase a bottle. Now, some places limit you to 4... some even less than that.

What I described to you is the business practices of one of the most popular club spaces in New York. I say "spaces" because as soon as they started to get GREEDY and push the bottle service idea too hard, attendance numbers decreased dramatically and it eventually lead to the closing of the space. In the last seven years, it has been under ownership of three different people and renamed four times. As of this moment, the place is still closed for business. Meanwhile the gay bar down the street that doesn't engage in bottle service antics never closed once or changed ownership. Also, other big clubs that didn't jump on the bottle service bandwagon to the point of abuse still remained open.

Perhaps this could be a clue?

A markup isn't the same thing as profit. What are their overheads?

Like I said before, everything sold in a bar/club is marked up tremendously. The same size bottle water that cost $1 in a neighborhood store sells easily for $4 in the right establishment. They all buy their products in volume on wholesale which allows them to purchase their supplies at a price we could only dream of getting for our own personal use. Even if they purchased a bottle of Grey Goose at the regular retail price, depending on the rules established by the owners as to how to pour a patron's drink it will still turn a profit if you go through even half a bottle. Again, the issue of "profit" isn't the problem here. You always want to think people are against others making money, and that is so not the case. At the end of the day, some people are just GREEDY and unless you know the difference you shouldn't be talking about economic matters at all.
 

JTalbain

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To quote another poster, I'll make this absurdly simple. People need resources, the only people that can create those resources are people, not the state. If you cannot rely on individuals to do this freely then forcing them to act in certain ways won't achieve anything, it's just an expensive exercise in crowd control.
What do you think it is when people are taxed and the money is used for anything benefitting the public? Say you need money to build new roads. Are you going to ask people to freely make donations to get money for those roads? No, because people won't pay in. the two most common methods are by raising taxes and raising the amount of money on traffic tickets.

This applies to other things as well. If they got rid of welfare, do you think everyone would voluntarily give money to the poor to cover their basic needs? If they abolished social security and medicare, do you think everyone would suddenly decide to give all their money to care for their parents? Do you think the draft was ineffective at filling the ranks of the military? Do you think that prisoners would volunteer to do all the free labor we get out of them if left to their own devices?
Yes in an ideal world everything would be free and we'd all be nice to one another, but we don't live in an ideal world so the next best thing is profit: which allows people to achieve a fair reward for a fair days work.

What exactly is wrong with that?
The CEOs of large corporations make more in a day than most of their employees make in a year. They make this regardless of whether they spend 12 hours in meetings or 2 signing papers followed by spending the rest of the day at the golf course. They get paid vactions, where they make more spending the day fucking in a jacuzzi than the worker bees do in a year. The worker is often involved in more physically demanding tasks that can cause health problems, but the CEO is the one guaranteed medical care for any ailment, work-related or not. Many of the CEOs are there because of nepotism or because they were more cutthroat than their peers. If fired, the CEO can demand much more money from his next job by merit of his "varied experience", whereas the more specialized worker often has to start over.

Where exactly is this fairness you dream exists in the workplace? Life isn't fair, it sucks.
But you're actually wrong with the point you made anyway, all participants influence the pricing mechanism. Some may have more control than others but they all play their part.
Health insurance providers have an absurd amount of control. They have the ability to increase their premiums to whatever they want and procedure prices are based on what the insurance companies are willing to pay. This also means that people are dependent on the insurance companies to receive any healthcare at all. Can you give me a reason why, besides unregulated greed, that any sector of the economy would grow like this: http://hcfan.3cdn.net/a9ce29d3038ef8a1e1_dhm6b9q0l.pdf during a recessionary period?
 
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Speculator

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What I described to you is the business practices of one of the most popular club spaces in New York. I say "spaces" because as soon as they started to get GREEDY and push the bottle service idea too hard, attendance numbers decreased dramatically and it eventually lead to the closing of the space. In the last seven years, it has been under ownership of three different people and renamed four times. As of this moment, the place is still closed for business. Meanwhile the gay bar down the street that doesn't engage in bottle service antics never closed once or changed ownership. Also, other big clubs that didn't jump on the bottle service bandwagon to the point of abuse still remained open.

Perhaps this could be a clue?


This is exact what I would expect to happen in a free market, the proprietor became too greedy and as a result he lost his business. Do you see the beauty of this type of setup? Customers vote with their feet if capitalists stop providing a decent quality service, this is exactly how it should be.

Capitalism and free markets prevent greed, you've more or less said so yourself.



Like I said before, everything sold in a bar/club is marked up tremendously. The same size bottle water that cost $1 in a neighborhood store sells easily for $4 in the right establishment. They all buy their products in volume on wholesale which allows them to purchase their supplies at a price we could only dream of getting for our own personal use. Even if they purchased a bottle of Grey Goose at the regular retail price, depending on the rules established by the owners as to how to pour a patron's drink it will still turn a profit if you go through even half a bottle. Again, the issue of "profit" isn't the problem here. You always want to think people are against others making money, and that is so not the case. At the end of the day, some people are just GREEDY and unless you know the difference you shouldn't be talking about economic matters at all.
A huge markeup still doesn't equate to a huge profit. They have wages to pay, rent, maintainence bills, insurance, not to mention taxes which are probably more draconian on clubs and pubs per shot than they are for supermarkets. Clubs need those markeups to cover costs, but for argument sake lets say they are making abnormal profits; the solution? More capitalism! Give consumers the choice.
 
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B_VinylBoy

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This is exact what I would expect to happen in a free market, the proprietor became too greedy and as a result he lost his business. Do you see the beauty of this type of setup? Customers vote with their feet if capitalists stop providing a decent quality service, this is exactly how it should be. Capitalism and free markets prevent greed, you've more or less said so yourself. A huge markeup still doesn't equate to a huge profit. They have wages to pay, rent, maintainence bills, insurance, not to mention taxes which are probably more draconian on clubs and pubs per shot than they are for supermarkets. Clubs need those markeups to cover costs, but for argument sake lets say they are making abnormal profits; the solution? More capitalism! Give consumers the choice.

That's not what I said so stop trying to put words in my mouth. Even I know that a country couldn't survive on an economy that is 100% Capitalist and Free Market. Because eventually a few conglomerates will eliminate all of the other competition. And with no competition, they'll control the market and be able to dictate whatever prices they wish regardless of how high it is. That's why our health care is in such disarray in this country, because the major insurance companies have no competition whatsoever. Which is also another reason why your pub analogy falls short because not only does that market affects a much smaller population, it's also not a necessity of life to have a drink at Cheers.

Our own financial system is a hybrid of Capitalist and Socialistic practices. They both keep things in check so that people can still be competitive and make the money they want, but hopefully not at everyone else's expense. How is it that you cannot see the bigger and grander picture here?
 

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Vinylboy speaketh the truth. I own a bar. But I have very little say in how it is run. When Elko County, Nevada, had an economy in the dirt (1980s) I had the option of closing or selling the place. But it came with a restaurant food license as well as the coveted liquor license. Still, it lacked what most other venues in Elko had lots of: slot machines and video poker.

Rather than close or sell the place I had a meeting of all the employees, almost all of them were women waitressing and tending bar to help keep their families in Hamburger Helper. I told them I could close the place, which meant everyone would lose their part time jobs. Or they could put their heads together and figure out a way to increase profits while paying off a lot of unsecured (inherited) debt.

Most of those employees are still working there. They are well known throughout the community. None of them are even close to being a curvy Vegas-style cocktail waitress. In fact they claim they look like the clean up staff at a meat packing plant. But they all took pay cuts (especially me, I didn't take a dime from the place for years). They built up lunch clientele of the "ladies" of Elko who needed a place to "lunch." And because they were all mothers with families and husbands chronically out of work, they knew how to stretch a buck.

They are now flourishing, although they still don't make as much as food service workers in other establishments with large casinos that have gaming tables. But they aren't greedy. They split all tips with the kitchen and cleaning staff. There are some drinks that cost more than $12 because they have six different shots of liquor in them. But a domestic bottle of beer is $1.75. Cheapest price in the entire city. After the ladies luncheon crowd has been swept away (about 2:00 PM) they juggle their schedules to pick up kids from school, rescue grandchildren from day care, and manage their own households. By 4:30 PM the "men" begin to show up and the bar is packed four or five deep by 5:30. They begin seating people for dinner at 6:00 PM and stop at 8:30 PM. The bar continues to be packed four of five deep as the manly men discuss Neumont Mining, Ruby Hills Gold, their horses, their success or lack of killing a deer, elk, or antelope. And I stay the Hell away from the whole operation. If the till becomes short a couple of times within a week, they usually know who the new employee is with the sticky fingers and take care of the situation.

Now, if you want the standard casino food and watered drinks Nevada is famous for, there are plenty of places where you can spend your money. But I sort of get all teary-eyed and happy when I hear one of these middle-aged women complain she served 96 tables on a Monday night and know that she is bragging more than she is complaining about her bunions. And if you get drunk on your ass and become a nuisance, they know just how to handle you.

I get a major yuck out of Vinylboy's remarks about a bottle of Grey Goose vodka. Even in a little out of the way place like mine the equation holds true that if we sell half a bottle we've made a tremendous profit. A couple of times the liquor rep has tried to increase his or her prices telling us that "the cost of liquor is just going up." Each time we've cancelled any automatic refill orders and the women have gone to Albertsons or Kroger grocery stores and bought the same shit at the marked up prices liquor is sold at those stores. We still made a generous profit. And the liquor reps know better than to get greedy, thinking they can squeeze an extra couple of grand out of us. We won't pay it. Eventually, they come back with "special deals . . . shhhhh . . . don't tell any of the other bars!" LOL! Special my painful ass cheek! If people knew how unspecial Grey Goose vodka really is, they'd never ask for the shit. It's a marketing ploy to make you think you are special and better than everyone else. When you get right down to it, it's just fucking vodka. And you've probably got a drinking problem upon which we are taking advantage of to make money! LOL!

Probably the best thing about being the owner of my bar is that I've allowed an environment to exist where the employees act -- and pay themselves -- as if they were the owners. And that means they are the bread winners who usually participate in the group insurance rate available to them. I can't participate because of my age, which would dramatically change the metrics of their group insurance. And don't kid yourself into thinking that the free market is going to save these same employees in the future. As soon as the the majority of them reach 60 years of age, their premiums will skyrocket. And there's nothing I can do about it.
 

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It is... or at least the individual mandat will be. But see, in Mass, hospitals are now screening potential hires for nicotene. Now, they are doing this because eventually the health care costs for those people will be more, so they dont want them. But...following this to its logical conclusion will be discriminating people based on genetics. Or also, for just being too damn old to want to pay for them. I hope my neighbor doesnt smell my smoker on. i got ribs in there and i dont want him reporting me to DHS because my fat intake will cost him in the future. think people.
 

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What do you think it is when people are taxed and the money is used for anything benefitting the public? Say you need money to build new roads. Are you going to ask people to freely make donations to get money for those roads? No, because people won't pay in. the two most common methods are by raising taxes and raising the amount of money on traffic tickets.

It's an interesting question and something I've spent a fair bit time thinking and studying about. Lets say that you did have this choice, everytime you bought a coffee for example you could make a 10% donation to the local road fund, if people decided to pay then you can be sure they valued the presnce of road more than the extra 10% in their pocket. If they decided to keep the money they obviously didn't want the road that badly.

The are two problems with the current taxation system;

1) once the road has been built the taxes don't cease,
2) taxation is levelled indiscriminately.

What I mean by 2 is, the road is a capital good and as such produces a return; it "earns" an income by providing a service to people. The tax system doesn't tax the people that benefit from the road, they tax everybody, this means some people overpay and others underpay. A fairer more equitable tax system would take account of these anomlies and adjust itself accordingly, but ours doesn't. It's like paying 50 cents for milk whether you purchase a pint or a swimming pools worth, and asking others to subsidise your choices if you demand more. In other words it's unfair on a lot of people.


This applies to other things as well. If they got rid of welfare, do you think everyone would voluntarily give money to the poor to cover their basic needs? If they abolished social security and medicare, do you think everyone would suddenly decide to give all their money to care for their parents? Do you think the draft was ineffective at filling the ranks of the military? Do you think that prisoners would volunteer to do all the free labor we get out of them if left to their own devices?

Forcing people to do stuff does get stuff done, but it's an inefficient system imo. There are better ways to go about things.

The CEOs of large corporations make more in a day than most of their employees make in a year. They make this regardless of whether they spend 12 hours in meetings or 2 signing papers followed by spending the rest of the day at the golf course. They get paid vactions, where they make more spending the day fucking in a jacuzzi than the worker bees do in a year. The worker is often involved in more physically demanding tasks that can cause health problems, but the CEO is the one guaranteed medical care for any ailment, work-related or not. Many of the CEOs are there because of nepotism or because they were more cutthroat than their peers. If fired, the CEO can demand much more money from his next job by merit of his "varied experience", whereas the more specialized worker often has to start over.

Yes I agree with this, but I don't think there's a lot that can be done about it. If all CEOs' wages were reduced by 80% tomorrow it would have a negligeable effect on the nation's prosperity. There are bigger fish to fry imo.


Health insurance providers have an absurd amount of control. They have the ability to increase their premiums to whatever they want and procedure prices are based on what the insurance companies are willing to pay. This also means that people are dependent on the insurance companies to receive any healthcare at all. Can you give me a reason why, besides unregulated greed, that any sector of the economy would grow like this: http://hcfan.3cdn.net/a9ce29d3038ef8a1e1_dhm6b9q0l.pdf during a recessionary period?


The best type of regulation is the free market kind; government control is just another form of monopoly. As you're arguing against the monopolistic powers of health insurance companies it seems a little counter-productive to advocate another form of centralised control as a permanent solution.
 

Speculator

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That's not what I said so stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm not trying to put anything in your mouth, I'm simply pointing out what you intuitively understand but refuse to admit openly because others may label you 'greedy', 'immoral' or 'a corporate shill' for saying so.

Your tale was about the triumph of the free market, a greedy capitalist tried to extract too much but the will of the people -as embodied by "the market"- prevailed and stopped his greed in its tracks. The story would have been complete if another less greedy capitalist was able to take his spot and offer the locals what they really wanted; a bar without the aggressively pitched bottle service.



How is it that you cannot see the bigger and grander picture here?
I can, which is why I don't get bogged down with the morality of profit. It's amoral.
 
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JTalbain

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It's an interesting question and something I've spent a fair bit time thinking and studying about. Lets say that you did have this choice, everytime you bought a coffee for example you could make a 10% donation to the local road fund, if people decided to pay then you can be sure they valued the presnce of road more than the extra 10% in their pocket. If they decided to keep the money they obviously didn't want the road that badly.
Coffee's kind of a bad example, because there are alternatives to it. Most people have coffee out of habit and for the caffeine, but they could drink tea or other such drinks that are a substitute just because they won't have to pay the tax on the coffee. In any case, the roads won't get built, and Starbucks would sue you for a discriminatory law. But this actually illustrates that you have to either take it from everybody or not at all. The best parallel to what you said would be sales taxes, which are commonly used to help pay for public projects.

The are two problems with the current taxation system;

1) once the road has been built the taxes don't cease,
2) taxation is levelled indiscriminately.

What I mean by 2 is, the road is a capital good and as such produces a return; it "earns" an income by providing a service to people. The tax system doesn't tax the people that benefit from the road, they tax everybody, this means some people overpay and others underpay. A fairer more equitable tax system would take account of these anomlies and adjust itself accordingly, but ours doesn't. It's like paying 50 cents for milk whether you purchase a pint or a swimming pools worth, and asking others to subsidise your choices if you demand more. In other words it's unfair on a lot of people.
For 1, this is not always the case. Many taxes are set to apply for a specified length of time so that they may automatically come up for review. And if we're talking about roads in particular, then 2 isn't entirely accurate either. A common way to get money for roads is via a toll booth, which is a direct tax in proportion to use, but this isn't always an option outside of road service.

Also, it isn't entirely true to say that roads don't benefit people who don't directly use them. A more efficient, better planned road system means that everybody has less traffic.
Forcing people to do stuff does get stuff done, but it's an inefficient system imo. There are better ways to go about things.
It has its issues, but inefficiency is not among them. Trying to drum up interest for something, asking people to donate for it, creating the infrastructure to allow for those donations, etc. is a lot less efficient than just jumping up the sales tax in order to pay for something.
Yes I agree with this, but I don't think there's a lot that can be done about it. If all CEOs' wages were reduced by 80% tomorrow it would have a negligeable effect on the nation's prosperity. There are bigger fish to fry imo.
Maybe not 80%, but you'd think people wouldn't balk at a 3% increase, which is exactly what the Republicans planted their feet and refused to budge on with the Bush era tax cuts. It's estimated that the extension of his tax cuts will add 3.9 Trillion dollars to the deficit over the next decade. What exactly could we be using that money for? Starve the beast, anyone?
The best type of regulation is the free market kind; government control is just another form of monopoly. As you're arguing against the monopolistic powers of health insurance companies it seems a little counter-productive to advocate another form of centralised control as a permanent solution.
Well, first off I wasn't suggesting moving to full socialized medical care, I was more suggesting that there need to be regulations which allow the government to prevent overinflation of insurance costs. A public option would have done exactly that, but so many people bought that "public option" was just political doubletalk for "socialized takeover of the American medical system" that it was removed from the healthcare legislation. Honestly, if the Democrats have learned anything from getting DADT repealed, they'll try in the near future to get a public option passed as a standalone bill, where it isn't attached to 1000+ other pages which obfuscate what it really is.

There are some benefits to a socialized system, though. It is extremely sensitive to cost-benefit analysis, so treatments that aren't effective are kicked to the curb. Additionally, it focuses much more on effective preventative care than putting out fires. Our medical system, by contrast, makes a lot of money putting out those fires, and many people skip routine medical examinations or don't seek medical help until their condition is serious. 10 years ago, we spent about twice as much of our GDP on our healthcare system than either Canada or Britain, both of which have socialized medicine. Considering how much the cost has increased as of late, I'm sure you can extrapolate how much that means we spend now.
 
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Speculator

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Coffee's kind of a bad example

I think you've missed the point, the idea was introduce an element of choice into public finances to see whether people would choose to pay for the road or not. Your response is to take away that choice and force everyone to opt in, it doesn't tell us whether people were willing to pay for that road.

In fact in a roundabout way you have answered your own question. People would probably choose to purchase an alternative product avoid the tax and not have the infrastructure. If that's their choice why do you feel the need to overrule it? I seems a little dictatorial to me.

I can't answer the rest of your your post as I have to go out now.