new trial on evolution vs creationism in schools

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by SUMYUNGUY+Sep 29 2005, 12:16 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SUMYUNGUY &#064; Sep 29 2005, 12:16 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Sep 29 2005, 12:38 AM


If someone is truly retarded, having an iq under 70, they should be respected and helped. If someone is not in this category yet they exhibit the same thinking patterns, it&#39;s fine to point and laugh. Regardless, anyone who listens to and accept the theories of a person speaking against facts in preference of opinions is not to be trusted on any level. Calling someone a moron seems insulting, but often times it is merely an observation of their own behavior. If you (SUMYUNGUY) are defending ID as an equal alternative to evolution, you are a moron.

You, sir, are one strange.... thing. I&#39;d imagine that plenty of peole point and laugh at you, don&#39;t they? uke:

Freddie pretty much highlighted my main point, anyway.

[post=347509]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
What was the main point you have that I highlighted?

 

[SUMYUNGUY]

I feel that the issue is more about education than it is about trying to inflict one form of religion on someone.
Like you said, where does it stop? Where does the line get drawn on what you can and can&#39;t teach, where some form of religion may play a part in the lesson.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by SUMYUNGUY@Sep 29 2005, 07:32 PM
I feel that the issue is more about education than it is about trying to inflict one form of religion on someone.
Like you said, where does it stop? Where does the line get drawn on what you can and can&#39;t teach, where some form of religion may play a part in the lesson.

[post=347535]Quoted post[/post]​

Addressing a woman as "Sir" is moronic unless you are in the military, which you are not.

If you had read Freddie&#39;s post, you would understand that he does NOT advocate teaching ID in science class as a legitimate alternative to evolution, but rather in social studies as a part of the belief systems of different peoples, alongside other religion&#39;s practises. I agree with him implicitly on that.

 

[SUMYUNGUY]

Otay&#33;

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by SUMYUNGUY@Sep 29 2005, 07:32 PM
Where does the line get drawn on what you can and can&#39;t teach, where some form of religion may play a part in the lesson.

[post=347535]Quoted post[/post]​

check this out: you&#39;ve probably never thought to look for it, but there is actually a very clear line between belief and fact. people have a habit of pretending or assuming that that line doesn&#39;t exist, and that belief and fact are the same thing, which seems to be where you&#39;ve become confused.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Sep 29 2005, 09:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Sep 29 2005, 09:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-SUMYUNGUY@Sep 29 2005, 07:32 PM
lesson.

[post=347535]Quoted post[/post]​

very clear line between belief and fact.

[post=347621]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Dr. Rock. best statement so far on this thread. Let me add to that

Science: based on observations, hypotheses, theories and facts.

Religion: based on tradition, personal experience, belief and faith.

In the Christian Bible faith is defined in belief in things not seen.

Belief is an idea that a person thinks is true.

Science and religion can coexist peacefully. They are not by definition at odds with each other. They are two different things.

Though some people&#39;s religion may be at odds with the discoveries and observations of scienctists, it isn&#39;t always so.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by Freddie53@Sep 29 2005, 03:55 PM

Yet, schools must not ever teach a religion in the "we" mode. As in "we" believe that....... Or that is what I was taught and I also believe.

Any comments?

Freddie:

I attended a Catholic high school and even there I benefitted from religious history and comparitive world religion classes that I perceived as being objective and respectful in their treatment of other faiths. I remember listening keenly to see if I could detect a tone of bias or patronization from the instructor but I was pleased to have never encountered it. The curriculum was very professionally prepared and presented.

So, I think its very possible for schools, even secular public schools, to foster objective learning about religion without crossing the line into promoting religion or denigrating it. Further, I remain optimistic that, in the end, most Americans know the difference.

SG

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Very optimistic. But yeah, I went to a Catholic school, but I think that the general hatred coming from other students negated the fact that the staff were mainly decent people.

I feel it&#39;s through them I learnt something useful, but I doubt many did.
Oh well.

 

[SUMYUNGUY]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy@Sep 29 2005, 11:08 PM

So, I think its very possible for schools, even secular public schools, to foster objective learning about religion without crossing the line into promoting religion or denigrating it. Further, I remain optimistic that, in the end, most Americans know the difference.

SG

Exactly.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy+Sep 30 2005, 04:08 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpeedoGuy &#064; Sep 30 2005, 04:08 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Further, I remain optimistic that, in the end, most Americans know the difference.

[post=347633]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Sep 25 2005, 04:47 PM
A CBS poll last November found 65 percent of Americans favor teaching creationism as well as evolution while 37 percent want creationism taught instead of evolution.

Fifty-five percent of Americans believe God created humans in their present form, the poll found.

[post=346435]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
apparently your optimism is already misplaced.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by SUMYUNGUY@Sep 28 2005, 04:04 AM
Left=Lemmings

You loons all sound the same. Science used to think the world was flat and that if you went too far that you&#39;d fall off.

[post=347144]Quoted post[/post]​

Actually, the ancient Greeks knew the world was round. Some early Xian sects refused to believe it was round because this contradicted all the talk of the world&#39;s &#39;foundations&#39; and the &#39;windows&#39; in the sky.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Sep 30 2005, 09:04 PM
apparently your optimism is already misplaced.

[post=347826]Quoted post[/post]​

Sigh. Stats like that are depressing. Perhaps I hang out with too open-minded a crowd here in Oregon.

Maybe I should rephrase my optimism. I suspect a majority of reasonable Americans forced to sit through an objective presentation of the merits of fundamentalist Christian creationism versus Darwinian evolution would know the difference between science and faith.

SG

 

[Dr Rock]

and who&#39;s gonna force them?

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy+Oct 1 2005, 12:00 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpeedoGuy &#064; Oct 1 2005, 12:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Sep 30 2005, 09:04 PM
apparently your optimism is already misplaced.

[post=347826]Quoted post[/post]​

Sigh. Stats like that are depressing. Perhaps I hang out with too open-minded a crowd here in Oregon.

Maybe I should rephrase my optimism. I suspect a majority of reasonable Americans forced to sit through an objective presentation of the merits of fundamentalist Christian creationism versus Darwinian evolution would know the difference between science and faith.

SG

[post=347881]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


I&#39;m glad you&#39;re optimistic, youth is good for that.

I doubt that the "majority" of americans have the discernment necessary to draw such a conclusion, which is why I worry. Year after year we are seeing the results of a country being led by the nose into theocrasy, and we are NOT in a revolution, which is what it would take to stop it. No, we won&#39;t just come to our senses and have this whole ugly nightmare over with, we will have to go through it the hard way. Everything we know and love of value will have to crumble at our feet and the very threads of humanity be ripped out of us before we are angry enough to make it stop.

I&#39;m thinking about voting Republican from now on to help speed up the process, I&#39;m not kidding.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 1 2005, 02:45 AM
I&#39;m thinking about voting Republican from now on to help speed up the process, I&#39;m not kidding.

[post=347915]Quoted post[/post]​

Ay carumba, MZ. Don&#39;t drink the Kool-Aid.

I remain optimistic because America has survived crappy congresscritters and presidents before and will doubtless survive the current embarrassment in the White House.

Cheers

SG

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy+Oct 1 2005, 03:07 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpeedoGuy &#064; Oct 1 2005, 03:07 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Oct 1 2005, 02:45 AM
I&#39;m thinking about voting Republican from now on to help speed up the process, I&#39;m not kidding.

[post=347915]Quoted post[/post]​

Ay carumba, MZ. Don&#39;t drink the Kool-Aid.

I remain optimistic because America has survived crappy congresscritters and presidents before and will doubtless survive the current embarrassment in the White House.

Cheers

SG

[post=347922]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


I like you a great deal, but I just can&#39;t share you optimism, I wish I could.

I don&#39;t see how we&#39;re going to survive the supreme court becomming what it inevitably will when it is filled with a bunch of right wing assholes for the next fifty years. Prepare for Roe v. Wade to be overturned with a quickness and all our freedoms get shot down one by one under a system where "the buck stops" nowhere good. This adminsitration differs from past ones because while many were ineffectual, this one is aggressively corrupt. The effects of bush on the supreme court for decades to come will be horrifying, to say the least. I want it in print that I said it out loud, just so I can say "I told you so" right before I die. I said it in 2000 and I was right then, so I doubt this will be any different.

Unless someone takes Dr. Rock&#39;s suggestion, we are in for an ugly time in history, and it pisses me off that this is the only chance I get in this life. I hope someone has more courage than me.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora+Sep 30 2005, 10:28 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Sep 30 2005, 10:28 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy@Oct 1 2005, 03:07 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora

@Oct 1 2005, 02:45 AM
I&#39;m thinking about voting Republican from now on to help speed up the process, I&#39;m not kidding.

[post=347915]Quoted post[/post]​

Ay carumba, MZ. Don&#39;t drink the Kool-Aid.

I remain optimistic because America has survived crappy congresscritters and presidents before and will doubtless survive the current embarrassment in the White House.

Cheers

SG

[post=347922]Quoted post[/post]​

I like you a great deal, but I just can&#39;t share you optimism, I wish I could.

I don&#39;t see how we&#39;re going to survive the supreme court becomming what it inevitably will when it is filled with a bunch of right wing assholes for the next fifty years. I was right then, so I doubt this will be any different.

Unless someone takes Dr. Rock&#39;s suggestion, we are in for an ugly time in history, and it pisses me off that this is the only chance I get in this life. I hope someone has more courage than me.

[post=347928]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Jana, many of us are upset knowing that at his young age the new Chief Justice will be sitting on his throne the rest of our lives. It is scarry what the Bushites might do.

Haivng said this, you are a fighter. And you have courage. I don&#39;t know anyone here with more courage than you.

It is about character. We may lose, but we know who we are and we know that in the end, goodness will win. It may not be here on earth or in our lifetime, but goodness will overcome evil in time.

I can&#39;t give up the faith now. I&#39;ve come too far to turn back. You can&#39;t either.

You may be down and I can tell that you are. But no one here has more courage than you. Sleep in emotionally a day or two and then get back for the fight. You have a deep sense of right and wrong and have a very true caring attitude for the world. I wish we had more like you in this world. It would be a better place to live.

God knows your heart and in the end, that is what matters.

Your brother,

Hugs,

Freddie

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Freddie53@Oct 1 2005, 02:30 PM
Jana, many of us are upset knowing that at his young age the new Chief Justice will be sitting on his throne the rest of our lives.

[post=347985]Quoted post[/post]​

not if somebody smashes an icepick through his skull he won&#39;t

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Oct 1 2005, 08:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Oct 1 2005, 08:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53@Oct 1 2005, 02:30 PM
Jana, many of us are upset knowing that at his young age the new Chief Justice will be sitting on his throne the rest of our lives.

[post=347985]Quoted post[/post]​

not if somebody smashes an icepick through his skull he won&#39;t

[post=348053]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


*scrounges in pocket for money to fly Dr. Rock to the states*

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora+Oct 1 2005, 04:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Oct 1 2005, 04:04 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Oct 1 2005, 08:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53

@Oct 1 2005, 02:30 PM
Jana, many of us are upset knowing that at his young age the new Chief Justice will be sitting on his throne the rest of our lives.

[post=347985]Quoted post[/post]​

not if somebody smashes an icepick through his skull he won&#39;t

[post=348053]Quoted post[/post]​

*scrounges in pocket for money to fly Dr. Rock to the states*

[post=348058]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Or we could buy the chief justice a condo in Antarctica as a permanent residence with immediate retirement beneifits.