News flash! Disagreeing with someone DOES NOT EQUAL 'hating'!

lafever

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Sorry, did you just basically say (and I confess I may well be reading you wrong, I've not found time for my morning coffee yet!) that in your opinion, racists, sexists and various other bigots should just be allowed to continue spreading their vicious, vile opinions, inflicting pain and suffering on those it pertains to, influencing young impressionable minds unhindered by the more knowledgeable, adult and open opinions of others, because ignoring it and pretending it doesn't matter gives you a blissful ignorance that it makes you the better person?

(I really hope I read it wrong, truly I do, and if I did, I further hope that you accept my apology. If I didn't however, just assume that upon reading that I didn't, I'll be banging my head against my desk and crying for the sake of all humanity!)
You read it right, BAN the fuckers, don't even give them a voice, that's the power you have as a mod but alas I'm just a member with the power to report someone. I'd rather just report them then feed into their bullshit.
Yes, I refuse to give them the power over my emotions and enjoy my ingnorant bliss. That doesn't mean I'm a better person, I'm better for not feeding into them, that's what they want, a confrontation. They are just stupid little morons looking for attention, yes?
If they are serious then it's time for the authorities to know but stupid little tactics for attention doesn't even stir an emotion.
 
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Kotchanski

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You read it right, BAN the fuckers, don't even give them a voice, that's the power you have as a mod but alas I'm just a member with the power to report someone. I'd rather just report them then feed into their bullshit. Yes, I refuse to give them the power over my emotions and enjoy my ingnorant bliss. That doesn't mean I'm a better person, I'm better for not feeding into them, that's what they want, a confrontation.

Ahh see, now we stumble across the even more depressing truth of the matter...

"Meh, let someone else deal with it"

I, and the rest of the team are bound not only by the ToS of the site as are you and every other member, but by an unwritten moderator code of conduct, moderator procedures, and a majority vote.

Excusing the term, if all things were black and white, a bigot of any kind that breaches the ToS could be removed from the site on the say so of one person alone, without the need for Heads Ups, Warnings and so on. Since everything is not black and white however, we have a majority vote and several steps to take prior to a perm banning, because we are not perfect and neither are any of you. We can't know for sure exactly how something was intended, or how it was read by all members on the site. So we take a vote, and the next step along the sanctions, giving the member in question the chance to say "Oh fuck, sorry, totally not how I meant it, I'll be more careful" and us the chance to say "Yeah sorry, you can see how it came across I'm sure, kinda glad we didn't just ban ya for it now!"

So while all that is going on, for our sake and yours, these posts are to go unchallenged? Or would you like to join the minority in supporting handing over full control to the moderator team to act alone based solely on their individual understandings of each comment, the ToS and the wishes of the owner? :eek:
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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All I'm saying is that you don't have to feed into someones hate, I don't have to buy what they're selling. The majority of the time those like you've mentioned are not worth my time, I feel as though if I engage them then somehow they've won by getting into my head. When they get into my head the next the you know I'm doing the same thing they are, hating. It's like a virus, and once you get the bug it's hard to get rid of the cough. I can allow idiots to be who and what they are today, try it some time and you'll gain some inward peace unlike any other.



Oh I'm sure I could live a quiet life of ease by not bothering to challenge bigotry, hate and ignorance when I encounter it.

I imagine Dr Martin Luther King, Mohandas K Ghandi or Aung San Suu Kyi could have lived quiet peaceful lives too.


My personal heroes aren't people who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people. My Heroes are people whose lives have been dangerous because they stood up to the ignorance and oppression around them and challenged the hate they encountered.


I'd rather live with the controversy and friction knowing I stood up for what I believed in rather than live in peaceful cowardice while smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinions I'm too risk averse to espouse.

If in your eyes that makes me infected with the virus of hate as you put it then so be it.
 

lafever

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Ahh see, now we stumble across the even more depressing truth of the matter...

"Meh, let someone else deal with it"

I, and the rest of the team are bound not only by the ToS of the site as are you and every other member, but by an unwritten moderator code of conduct, moderator procedures, and a majority vote.

Excusing the term, if all things were black and white, a bigot of any kind that breaches the ToS could be removed from the site on the say so of one person alone, without the need for Heads Ups, Warnings and so on. Since everything is not black and white however, we have a majority vote and several steps to take prior to a perm banning, because we are not perfect and neither are any of you. We can't know for sure exactly how something was intended, or how it was read by all members on the site. So we take a vote, and the next step along the sanctions, giving the member in question the chance to say "Oh fuck, sorry, totally not how I meant it, I'll be more careful" and us the chance to say "Yeah sorry, you can see how it came across I'm sure, kinda glad we didn't just ban ya for it now!"

So while all that is going on, for our sake and yours, these posts are to go unchallenged? Or would you like to join the minority in supporting handing over full control to the moderator team to act alone based solely on their individual understandings of each comment, the ToS and the wishes of the owner? :eek:
I just think there are enough members out there who love that sort of thing so I can concentrate on playing with my big dick or letting someone else play with it. And yes, I'm glad no one person has the ability to have full control on lpsg and that you guys/gals get together and discuss the circumstances. I'm also glad there's a god and I'm not it because if I were god people would just burst into flames.
Oh I'm sure I could live a quiet life of ease by not bothering to challenge bigotry, hate and ignorance when I encounter it.

I imagine Dr Martin Luther King, Mohandas K Ghandi or Aung San Suu Kyi could have lived quiet peaceful lives too.


My personal heroes aren't people who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people. My Heroes are people whose lives have been dangerous because they stood up to the ignorance and oppression around them and challenged the hate they encountered.


I'd rather live with the controversy and friction knowing I stood up for what I believed in rather than live in peaceful cowardice while smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinions I'm too risk averse to espouse.

If in your eyes that makes me infected with the virus of hate as you put it then so be it.
I'm not trying to put myself on a cross and the last time I checked there were enough martyrs in the world. What you don't know about me is that I was a bouncer in a topless bar for ten years and I've had my share of fights, I've beat the hell out of men who abused their dancing girlfriends and knocked pieces of shit into next week. I've already had my wars, maybe you just feel guilty for doing nothing already so you're trying to make a difference in the world. I've already done that and been there and I have the t-shirt to prove it. I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else, I sleep really good at night knowing what I've already done. I've brokken the jaws and arms of woman beaters and child molesters when the police didn't care and/or looked the other way, what have you done?
 
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lafever

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I'm glad I can entertain everyone this morning, know if you don't mind I'm going to fix myself some coffee. :smile:
 

Kotchanski

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Oh dear lord, now we have some random amount of fight we need to put up before we've done our duty and can leave it to someone else, and if we're still fighting, it's because we're guilty that we've not met our quota?

I fought against the bigots where I grew up, who refused to accept me because of where I was born and how I spoke. I fought them from the age of 7, and continue to do so.

I fought against the racists who made the lives of the handful of black children we had in my very large school a living hell. Persistent bullying, name calling, physical assaults, refusing to allow them to use the library because "their kind wasn't wanted there"

I fought against every man out there who got in my way and decided I shouldn't enter my chosen professions because I was a woman.

I joined here and spent 5 years fighting for shorter, more to the point rules, more openness from the moderator team, fairer treatment for various minorities on the site where I felt things weren't as fair as they could be.

For the last 3 months, I've been fighting my own personal opinions and feelings on the topic of sexism so as to better represent the women on the site.

I've put myself in physical danger countless times when on a night out I've seen some woman being pushed around or otherwise hurt/harassed by men.

I've fought to have bans applied and lifted when I felt it was the right thing to do.

Just so I know when I can take a cig break... tell me, how much more before I've met my quota?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I'm not trying to put myself on a cross and the last time I checked there were enough martyrs in the world. What you don't know about me is that I was a bouncer in a topless bar for ten years and I'v had my share of fights, I've beat the hell out of men who abused their dancing girlfriends and knocked pieces of shit into next week. I've already had my wars,



Who's talking about martyrdom? I'm not, I'm just saying that there are people out there in the world who are prepared to make huge sacrifices, sometimes the ultimate sacrifice, to stand up to hatred.

That would make me an utterly pathetic coward if I didn't challenge bigotry if all I stood to endure for doing so was some pretty minor agro wouldn't it?



maybe you just feel guilty for doing nothing already so you're trying to make a difference in the world


This comment makes a hypocrite of you btw. I've challenged what you've said based on the principles involved, I haven't speculated about you or your motivations. I don't know you and you don't know me.

However rather than come up with a cogent counter argument to the things I've said you've decided to make unflattering speculations about my motivations. So instead of doing the decent thing and treat me with the respect I've treated you with, you've decided to condescend to me and imply that I have a martyr complex driven by guilt about what you speculate is my lack of having made a difference in the world.


I couldn't possibly be someone who genuinely believes the things they've said could I? I couldn't possible have genuine motivations, and in your view it's likely my views are held because of guilt about my lack of contribution to society.


I don't think these are the comments of someone who desperately wishes not to be seen as a hater or who takes a principled stand on being peaceful and non-confrontational.
 
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lafever

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Oh dear lord, now we have some random amount of fight we need to put up before we've done our duty and can leave it to someone else, and if we're still fighting, it's because we're guilty that we've not met our quota?

I fought against the bigots where I grew up, who refused to accept me because of where I was born and how I spoke. I fought them from the age of 7, and continue to do so.

I fought against the racists who made the lives of the handful of black children we had in my very large school a living hell. Persistent bullying, name calling, physical assaults, refusing to allow them to use the library because "their kind wasn't wanted there"

I fought against every man out there who got in my way and decided I shouldn't enter my chosen professions because I was a woman.

I joined here and spent 5 years fighting for shorter, more to the point rules, more openness from the moderator team, fairer treatment for various minorities on the site where I felt things weren't as fair as they could be.

For the last 3 months, I've been fighting my own personal opinions and feelings on the topic of sexism so as to better represent the women on the site.

I've put myself in physical danger countless times when on a night out I've seen some woman being pushed around or otherwise hurt/harassed by men.

I've fought to have bans applied and lifted when I felt it was the right thing to do.

Just so I know when I can take a cig break... tell me, how much more before I've met my quota?
I love ya bunches but you know there's always someone waiting to take your torch, all you have to do is hand it off.
I too hate men who abuse women, I saw alot of it when I was working in the bar and don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't hesitate to knock someones head off for hitting a woman and I'd come out of retirement in a new york second to do so.
The last time I hit a man I wasn't even working, I was trying to enjoy myself and the bouncer who was working wasn't doing his job. When I saw a guy go after this woman I stepped in and beat him to the ground in front of a 100 people as they watched because they didn't want to get involved. Afterwords the bartender baught me a beer and all was good in the world for the moment.
The time before that I was bartending and I told my bouncers to watch this guy who walked in, the next thing I know I'm flying over the bar and beating a man off my manager because he was trying to break her jaw. I still to this day don't know what my two bouncers were doing. Anyways, I beat that boy all the way out of his shoes, litterly. They were on the ground were I knocked him into next week, I'm sure I broke several bones in his face. So yeah I'm glad that we all pick are fights I'm just enjoying a little vacation right now and I'm enjoying it emencely.
 
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lafever

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Who's talking about martyrdom? I'm not, I'm just saying that there are people out there in the world who are prepared to make huge sacrifices, sometimes the ultimate sacrifice, to stand up to hatred.

That would make me an utterly pathetic coward if I didn't challenge bigotry if all I stood to endure for doing so was some pretty minor aggro wouldn't it?






This comment makes a hypocrite of you btw. I've challenged what you've said based on the principles involved, I haven't speculated about you or your motivations. I don't know you and you don't know me.

However rather than come up with a cogent counter arguments to the things I've said you've decided to make unflattering speculations about my motivations. So instead of doing the decent thing and treat me with the respect I've treated you with, you've decided to condescend to me and imply that I have a martyr complex driven by guilt about what you speculate is my lack of having made a difference in the world.


I couldn't possibly be someone who genuinely believes the things they've said could I? I couldn't possible have genuine motivations, and in your view it's likely my views are held because of guilt about my lack of contribution to society.


I don't think these are the comments of someone who desperately wishes not to be seen as a hater or who takes a principled stand on being peaceful and non-confrontational.
Good, then you know how you made me feel, doesn't feel nice does it? You jumped to the conclusion that I don't do anything but what you didn't know is that I've done my share. That's my main point here, people go off on a tanget when they could just let dogs lay.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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Good, then you know how you made me feel, doesn't feel nice does it? You jumped to the conclusion that I don't do anything but what you didn't know is that I've done my share. That's my main point here, people go off on a tanget when they could just let dogs lay.


Rubbish, I never once said that. If you read that into my comments that's your own lookout. I never once speculated about you or your contribution to society.

And if your response to something I never actually said about you is to go on the attack that still makes you a hypocrite.
 
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Kotchanski

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So you're more than happy when there is a real life, in your face physical need to protect someone. So you aren't quite as bad a person as I may have thought from your previous posts.

As for me handing over the torch, I could do, and there are plenty of others who would do the job just as well as I, probably better too, though you never know until they've been handed it.

The difference here is, that I don't require it to be in my face, I don't require it to be physical, and I certainly don't think that there being others just as capable as I means I shouldn't have to bother. I bother and continue to bother because each person that doesn't is enabling it to continue.

I can not and will not allow things I care about to be "left to others" If we all thought like that, women wouldn't be voting, black people would still be slaves, and homosexuals would still be forced to "man up, marry and knock out a few kids"

I love ya bunches but you know there's always someone waiting to take your torch, all you have to do is hand it off.
I too hate men who abuse women, I saw alot of it when I was working in the bar, don't get me wrong, I won't hesitate to knock someones head off for hitting a woman and I'd come out of retirement in a new york second to do so.
The last time I hit a man I wasn't even working, I was trying to enjoy myself and the bouncer who was working wasn't doing his job. When I saw him go after her I stepped in and beat him to the ground in front of a 100 people as they watched because they didn't want to get involved. Afterwords the bartender baught me a beer and all was good in the world for the moment.
The time before that I was bartending and I told my bouncers to watch this guy who walked in, the next thing I know I'm flying over the bar and beating a man off my manager because he was trying to break her jaw. I still to this day don't know what my two bouncers were doing. Anyways, I beat that boy all the way out of his shoes, litterly. They were on the ground were I knocked him into next week, I'm sure I broke several bones in his face. So yeah I'm glad that we all pick are fights I'm just enjoying a little vacation right now and I'm enjoying it emencely.
 

lafever

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Rubbish, I never once said that. If you read that into my comments that's your own lookout. I never once speculated about you or your contribution to society.

And if your response to something I never actually said about you is to go on the attack that still makes you a hypocrite.
Really?
Oh I'm sure I could live a quiet life of ease by not bothering to challenge bigotry, hate and ignorance when I encounter it.

I imagine Dr Martin Luther King, Mohandas K Ghandi or Aung San Suu Kyi could have lived quiet peaceful lives too.


My personal heroes aren't people who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people. My Heroes are people whose lives have been dangerous because they stood up to the ignorance and oppression around them and challenged the hate they encountered.


I'd rather live with the controversy and friction knowing I stood up for what I believed in rather than live in peaceful cowardice while smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinions I'm too risk averse to espouse.

If in your eyes that makes me infected with the virus of hate as you put it then so be it.
"aren't peole who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people" " Smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinion I'm too risk averse to espouse " hilaire

So those weren't derogatory remarks directed towards me, just saying.
So you're more than happy when there is a real life, in your face physical need to protect someone. So you aren't quite as bad a person as I may have thought from your previous posts.

As for me handing over the torch, I could do, and there are plenty of others who would do the job just as well as I, probably better too, though you never know until they've been handed it.

The difference here is, that I don't require it to be in my face, I don't require it to be physical, and I certainly don't think that there being others just as capable as I means I shouldn't have to bother. I bother and continue to bother because each person that doesn't is enabling it to continue.

I can not and will not allow things I care about to be "left to others" If we all thought like that, women wouldn't be voting, black people would still be slaves, and homosexuals would still be forced to "man up, marry and knock out a few kids"
Yes, I'm a hands on type guy, not much for fighting with my pen. I'm not so book savy as many on here are and my literary skills kinda show that so I guess that's why I've always been an easy target here. I let people bait me sometimes or maybe I'm just bored and need a little excitement or as you put it, make the quota.
I'm glad that pen savy members like you are around, if that's what you're good at then stick to it and leave the hands on to someone like me.
I've learned to let things go when it comes to certain things or hatred, please let me further explain.
My father faught in a war no one believed in but what people didn't realize is that he was drafted. Even years after the war my family took shit from people who were fighting for what they believed in, when I was 12 years old the kid next door spit in my face and told me we couldn't play with each other based on his parents belief. Now I could have knocked the lights out of him but I turned and walked away sadened by his family and their ignorance of a war that peole were forced to fight. They didn't know anything about me or my dad but they had drawn a hard opinion of people they assumed we were. My dad certainly did not run to sign up and say I want to be a baby killer.
Sadly people don't always look at both sides of the coin.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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Really?

"aren't peole who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people" " Smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinion I'm too risk averse to espouse " hilaire

So really, those weren't derogatory remarks directed towards me, just saying.


Look at what I wrote.-

Oh I'm sure I could live a quiet life of ease by not bothering to challenge bigotry, hate and ignorance when I encounter it.

I imagine Dr Martin Luther King, Mohandas K Ghandi or Aung San Suu Kyi could have lived quiet peaceful lives too.


My personal heroes aren't people who lived quiet lives because they chose to ignore the prejudices and hate of other people. My Heroes are people whose lives have been dangerous because they stood up to the ignorance and oppression around them and challenged the hate they encountered.


I'd rather live with the controversy and friction knowing I stood up for what I believed in rather than live in peaceful cowardice while smugly congratulating myself on the rectitude of opinions I'm too risk averse to espouse.

If in your eyes that makes me infected with the virus of hate as you put it then so be it.



I was talking about my personal principles and how they relate to my behaviour and what I would think of myself if I didn't attempt to live up to the example of those I hold in the highest regard.


Nothing I wrote is a reflection on you, and nor does it contain a single speculation about you.


And besides even if I had made such speculations you've already stated -

lafever said:
If I'm ok with me then I'm ok with you and what you believe, everyone has a right to their own opinion without me pissing on it.
One of the greatest challenges in life is letting people have an opinion.


Apparently that's not true now, because you've decided to make entirely baseless and unpleasant speculations about me for merely explaining my personal principles.
 

lafever

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Look at what I wrote.-





I was talking about my personal principles and how they relate to my behaviour and what I would think of myself if I didn't attempt to live up to the example of those I hold in the highest regard.


Nothing I wrote is a reflection on you, and nor does it contain a single speculation about you.


And besides even if I had made such speculations you've already stated -




Apparently that's not true now, because you've decided to make entirely baseless and unpleasant speculations about me for merely explaining my personal principles.
The way you're putting it makes me feel as though you're intentionaly putting me down for what I believe which is neither perfect or the golden rule and I don't always follow things to the letter or by the book so confronting you doesn't make me a hyprocrite I'm just an idiot who's fallen into your trap, aren't you happy?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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The way you're putting it makes me feel as though it's putting me down for what I believe which is neither perfect or the golden rule and I don't always follow things to the letter or by the book so confronting you doesn't make me a hyprocrite I'm just an idiot who's fallen into your trap, aren't you happy?



Oh please. Now I'm setting traps for you? Me explaining my personal beliefs makes you feel bad about yourself? What the hell does that have to do with me? And why would I be setting traps for you? Because I'm unscrupulous and a "Hater" I suppose, right? :rolleyes:


How about you quite blaming me for your feelings of guilt? Oh and while you're at it how about you quit tone policing too - Defences of bigotry I: Tone and sensitivity
 
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Kotchanski

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The way you're putting it makes me feel as though you're intentionaly putting me down for what I believe which is neither perfect or the golden rule and I don't always follow things to the letter or by the book so confronting you doesn't make me a hyprocrite I'm just an idiot who's fallen into your trap, aren't you happy?

To be fair, we're free to read things as we wish if they are left open to such reading.

You read him as attacking you, which he claims isn't the case.
I read you as attacking me, which I've opted to ignore because I can't be bothered with a load of back and forth where we discuss nothing but who is attacking who.

Maybe it would be best if we just said:

All three of us agree that there are fights to be had when it comes to bigots and "unfavorable" behavior. We simply differ in our methodology and when we think it should be applied, and to some degree, are all failing at making ourselves understood to the other parties.
 

lafever

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To be fair, we're free to read things as we wish if they are left open to such reading.

You read him as attacking you, which he claims isn't the case.
I read you as attacking me, which I've opted to ignore because I can't be bothered with a load of back and forth where we discuss nothing but who is attacking who.

Maybe it would be best if we just said:

All three of us agree that there are fights to be had when it comes to bigots and "unfavorable" behavior. We simply differ in our methodology and when we think it should be applied, and to some degree, are all failing at making ourselves understood to the other parties.
I agree, we've enteratained the masses, let's all go and masterbate or have sex, I'm sure we'll all feel better, I've already started. :rolleyes:
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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To be fair, we're free to read things as we wish if they are left open to such reading.

You read him as attacking you, which he claims isn't the case.
I read you as attacking me, which I've opted to ignore because I can't be bothered with a load of back and forth where we discuss nothing but who is attacking who.

Maybe it would be best if we just said:

All three of us agree that there are fights to be had when it comes to bigots and "unfavorable" behavior. We simply differ in our methodology and when we think it should be applied, and to some degree, are all failing at making ourselves understood to the other parties.




With respect Aconitum, I was perfectly clear about what I meant. It isn't a "claim" that I wasn't attacking Lafever. I never once mentioned him nor made any speculations about him.


The discussion turned to how one justifies confronting prejudice and bigotry, I explained why I feel compelled to do so.
 

Kotchanski

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With respect Aconitum, I was perfectly clear about what I meant. It isn't a "claim" that I wasn't attacking Lafever. I never once mentioned him nor made any speculations about him.


The discussion turned to how one justifies confronting prejudice and bigotry, I explained why I feel compelled to do so.

I know that you didn't, but I also know how you intended your post to be read.

Taking myself outside the situation though, given that I pretty much did attack his position, and that from that point he was thrown into the defensive, I can see how he may well have felt that your post was continuing my attack.

We're all more than capable of reading more into a post than is there, especially if we've been thrown into a particular mindset by another post within the thread.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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I know that you didn't, but I also know how you intended your post to be read.

Taking myself outside the situation though, given that I pretty much did attack his position, and that from that point he was thrown into the defensive, I can see how he may well have felt that your post was continuing my attack.

We're all more than capable of reading more into a post than is there, especially if we've been thrown into a particular mindset by another post within the thread.


OK, but that's not really my responsibility or fault, is it? And it doesn't make it OK for Lafever to make completely baseless and unfavourable speculations about me does it?


Just so we're clear though, I'm not attacking you :wink:
 
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