Nice going Israel

D_Andreas Sukov

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I know someone who's Brother in law was on there, and i met the women who went on the last Flotilla to Gaza, just before Christmas. These people are in no way Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, or anything else. I highly doubt Al-qaeda are too keen on short, blonde haired, little old women from Portsmouth being members. Especially ones who are far from Islamic.

The Israeli's should atleast release the names of those Captured and Killed. For the benefit of the families, it is the least they could do.

Just to ask a question. Imagine if Iran had done this.
 

Calboner

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vince

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I'll just throw these videos into the discussion, for the benefit of those who are so confident that Israeli reports that their soldiers were responding to physical attacks on them are fictitious:

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship

I for one don't doubt that the commandos who boarded and seized those vessels in international waters were met with physical attacks. What would be surprising about that? I would fight back against an illegal hijacking too.
 

faceking

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Am curious on the breakdown (the honest one) on actual disagreement w/ Israel policies vs. anti-semitism. Curious what Farrakan thinks...
 

B_Nick4444

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just received (or just noticed -- I was enjoying the holiday) a missive I received from Stratfor on the situation

the analysts are stating that the shipment had been directed by the Israeli authorities to an Israeli port; the NGO ignored that request and proceeded directly to Gaza, whereupon Israeli military intercepted and attempted to board, whereupon the use of deadly force was used in response to the ship's crew initiated resistance.


they are indicating that Israeli Prime Minister is correct as characterizing it as a strategy to create an incident whereby Israel is portrayed as a brutal oppressor, driving a wedge between Israel and the rest of the world.


interestingly, they are describing it as a resurrection of the ploy used in Leon Uris's novel:


"...The ‘Exodus’ Scenario

In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called “Exodus.” Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British — who controlled Palestine, as it was then known — maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews — mostly children — from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.
There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British...."

their analyst on this video describes the strategic implications:

Video Dispatch: Israel's Options on the Gaza Convoy | STRATFOR


now back to my holiday ...
 
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Jason

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Me thinks there is more to this story than what we're being told...

Probably the best comment on this thread.

The political outcome of today's event is an enormous PR victory for Hamas and an enormous PR disaster for Israel. And the people of Gaza don't have their supplies, and peace in the Middle East has taken ten steps backwards.

What did the flotilla think it was doing? They must surely have known that there was no way that Israel would let them land in Gaza. They must have known that an incident would be cereated which would set back peace in the Middle East. They must have known that their actions would be of no benefit at all to the people of Gaza - indeed the result will actually hurt the people of Gaza. Is there any reasonable explanation other than that they were going out of their way to create an incident? Was this their sole motive?

The best solution would have been if Israel had been able to take charge of the ships without anyone getting hurt. But seeing the film of the attacks on the Israelis as they boarded one ship it seems that the flotilla ensured that this solution was not possible.
 

Bbucko

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The best solution would have been if Israel had been able to take charge of the ships without anyone getting hurt. But seeing the film of the attacks on the Israelis as they boarded one ship it seems that the flotilla ensured that this solution was not possible.

Would you really describe civilian self-defense and resistance to a military seizure of a boat in international waters as an "attack"?
 

tripod

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I for one don't doubt that the commandos who boarded and seized those vessels in international waters were met with physical attacks. What would be surprising about that?

Not surprising at all.

I'll just throw these videos into the discussion, for the benefit of those who are so confident that Israeli reports that their soldiers were responding to physical attacks on them are fictitious:

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship

I've been in bar fights where there was more confusion, violence and insanity than that. Deadly force does not ever need to be applied in a bar fight, is that what Israeli bouncers do? Start shooting up the bar once one of their other bouncers get's a beer bottler smashed over his head? The supposed "firebomb" never flashed so what in the hell was it actually? A bucket? A submarine sandwich?

They had no right to do what they did in international waters, absolutely none.

Who the fuck does Israel think that they are?

And if I hear another pro-Israeli stooge say that this was a PR victory for Hamas, I am going to throw up. this has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas, the supplies are for the Israeli people and over half of Gazan Palestinians are dependent on the aid for their survival.

It's nice that they are so sick and twisted that they see the death of innocent civilians as somehow a PR victory for Hamas.

Would you really describe civilian self-defense and resistance to a military seizure of a boat in international waters as an "attack"?

You are soooo right about that Bbucko.
 

vince

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interestingly, they are describing it as a resurrection of the ploy used in Leon Uris's novel:


"...The ‘Exodus’ Scenario

In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called “Exodus.” Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British...."
So one could draw the conclusion that the country was founded on lies and deception? Is that what you are saying? They certainly are great propagandists, I'll give them that.

Look at how well they are already controlling the flow of information. So far none of the activists, politicians, journalists or crew on the ships has been released or allowed to speak to a news organization or their consults. Much like the novels of Uris, one side of the story will be heard in US, with just enough from the side to make it "fair and balanced" and believable. This time though they don't only have the Palestinians to deal with. Tayip Erdogan is not going to shut up.

Yes I read the book in the eighth grade and it contributed to my youthful enthusiasm for Israel and racism towards Arabs. Thankfully I grew out of that and learned that there are two or more sides to every problem.
 

dandelion

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What did the flotilla think it was doing?
According to the BBC (which someone posted they didnt trust?) The ships were loaded with aid supplies including such dangerous items as cement and windows which the Israelis have embargoed. The israelis were then told the cargo list. So obviously the intention was to force the Israelis to act. The report I heard said there was only fighting on one ship, so Id make a total guess that the one ship had the 'contraband' on it. Otherwise I expect some people got overexcited when the Israelis landed. Or I suppose they could have been suicide chair throwers.

They must surely have known that there was no way that Israel would let them land in Gaza. They must have known that an incident would be cereated which would set back peace in the Middle East.
Only if your idea of peace is for Israel to lay siege to its enemies until they all starve. Perhaps not literally for lack of food, but as I said the Israels are forbidding them to build anything. And every now and then they blow some more of the place up. Given the helpful hints in the bible I expect they embargo straw for making mud bricks too. Its a very biblical sort of revenge, come to think of it. Most people dont call that peace. They call it enemy occupation.

They must have known that their actions would be of no benefit at all to the people of Gaza - indeed the result will actually hurt the people of Gaza
No one ever won a war by agreeing to the enemy terms. It was as peaceful a way as you could imagine to force the Israelis into committing another illegal act of war.

Is there any reasonable explanation other than that they were going out of their way to create an incident? Was this their sole motive?
Well obviously they were creating an incident, but only in the way that british or US troops in Afghanistan who drive over a landmine are creating an incident by being blown up. Why do US troops keep getting themselves killed just to make diplomatic incidents? I would be surprised if the ships cargoes contained anything ordinary people consider terrorist supplies. The BBC said Israel was restricting imports to 1/5 their previous level, so no, not their sole motive: they were trying to provide some of the 4/5 a normal state would need to live on.

The best solution would have been if Israel had been able to take charge of the ships without anyone getting hurt. But seeing the film of the attacks on the Israelis as they boarded one ship it seems that the flotilla ensured that this solution was not possible.
Firstly that isnt Israel's style, and secondly I agree with others that they obviously didnt try. Someone said there were some EU parliamentarians on board? Israelis being Israelis its surprising they didnt manage to shoot some of them too, but I dare say they didnt look like arabs.

Come on Jason, Israel does not respect international law. They just do what they want. They know no action will be taken against them because the west does not want Israel overrun by Arabs. They take advantage of this to break all the normal rules when they think it is in their interest. In this case Im not sure if they did the right thing. Well see, they might have gone too far. I expect there will be another aid convoy along soon carrying some more dangerous cement.


peace in the Middle East has taken ten steps backwards.
No. its just the logical next stage of an unacceptable siege Israel is imposing. There was no peace to set back unless you mean the peace of the desert. The only peace Israel will accept is total surrender of their enemies and for all the people living there to go somewhere else leaving Israel in charge. I would say that is their strategy. Now, its understandable but that doesnt help find a genuine solution.
 

Drifterwood

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Maybe they are employing Somalis now.

If you look at the footage, you can see that this was a botched operation by the Israelis.

Apart from the fact that they have no right to board a ship within International Waters, and had it represented a real threat they would have gone in seriously, they underestimated the reaction of the crew.

Having made these mistakes and seeing some of their men (maybe women) taking a beating, they reacted with extreme prejudice, as is their way.

Another big fat fail for the Israelis coming quickly on the tail of being caught again murdering people on the back of stolen passports. I imagine that heads will roll while the spin continues.
 
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Jason

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Apart from the fact that they have no right to board a ship within International Waters, and had it represented a real threat they would have gone in seriously, they underestimated the reaction of the crew.

"International Waters" is an imprecise term. Certainly no part of the Mediterranean is classified as "High Seas", which is most often what is meant by "international waters". Israel has a 12 nautical mile band of territorial water. Outside of this there is an exclusive economic zone which will extend to the agreed borders with neighbours - Lebanon, Turkey, Cypress, Egypt. The point of course is that Israel boarded the ships outside of its territorial water.

Israel - and any other country - has the legal right to board a ship outside of its territorial waters (or indeed on the high seas) if it has reasonable grounds to believe that the ship is engaged in piracy or an act of warfare, including the transport of weapons to be used by an enemy. There was a case about 15 years ago when the UK seized on the high seas a ship carrying arms from Libya to the IRA - and no nation questioned our legal right to do this. It will be interesting to learn if there are indeed weapons aboard any of the ships. It will also be interesting to learn if there are such items as cement - given that the small quantities of cement that have entered Gaza so far have been put to military use.

While I don't doubt the legal issues will be made complex, they really shouldn't be. Israel almost certainly did have the legal right to stop these ships. What we seem to have is a bungled action. But even this line of thought is problematic. What do we all feel Israel should have done? Sent in its men and women with no arms whatsoever? Or gone in with much greater force with a view to intimidating and avoiding any resistance? Had they done either of these and it had worked we would all have said the method was appropriate. But if there had been an incident we would have condemned, just as we've all condemned what in fact happened.

Israel is in a position where absolutely anything it does is wrong. Of course it is wrong to hinder the passage of aid, just as Israel is wrong in the civilian deaths and misery caused by its recent Gaza invasion. Israel must be condemned. But the terrorist regime governing in Gaza that daily assults the people of Gaza is the true source of evil.
 

leoboy63

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I am AMAZED that so many people here are in support of terrorists and terrorist organizations. This was NOT an "aid" flotilla bound for Gaza and it's terrorist government and population that supports terrorism. It was an outright provocation and these were NOT "peace activists" that they are made out to be.

I would remind you that Israel is the ONLY democratic state in the Middle East where rights are respected. Half of you in support of these same "innocent" people would be put to death if you were living in their countries for you sexual orientation. The other half would be imprisoned just for being on this site as "immoral."

Isreal gave numerous warnings to these ships to stop, even before they left Cyprus. They were carrying paint ball rifles when they boarded and were met with slingshots, axes, pipe, bats, etc... Is that the actions of "peace activists"? Sadly, Israel fell right into their hands in creating world sympathy.

"I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you."
 

tripod

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Israel has a 12 nautical mile band of territorial water.

Okay, sounds good, we're all in agreement here.

Israel almost certainly did have the legal right to stop these ships.

You just contradicted yourself with the statements below. You are like most Israeli apologists, full of crap and high on your own hubris.

The point of course is that Israel boarded the ships outside of its territorial water.

Israel - and any other country - has the legal right to board a ship outside of its territorial waters (or indeed on the high seas) if it has reasonable grounds to believe that the ship is engaged in piracy or an act of warfare, including the transport of weapons to be used by an enemy.

It will also be interesting to learn if there are such items as cement - given that the small quantities of cement that have entered Gaza so far have been put to military use.

Nice... real nice. Destroying Gaza and then refusing to allow building materials in so that they can rebuild.

It's absolute evil.

If Israel would take their feet off of the necks of the Palestinians, they would get the security that they so crave. Until then, they are just a bunch of whiny bitch three year olds trying to force fit a circular peg into a square hole.

Israel is in a position where absolutely anything it does is wrong.

An absolutely bullshit statement when in reality Israel has constantly gotten a free pass from the various presses of the world whenever they act like colonial barbarians. There is no country that has been coddled and babied like Israel over the years. The former best friend of colonial South Africa has had most of their crimes and atrocities whitewashed and suppressed in the media over the years. They have experienced only a fraction of the vilification that they are due.

Of course it is wrong to hinder the passage of aid, just as Israel is wrong in the civilian deaths and misery caused by its recent Gaza invasion.

There you go.... sounding like a human being. Which is it gonna be Jason? Blind adherence to Israel's Draconian policies or treatment of other humans as human beings? Israel treats the Gazans like they are Israel's revolting slaves that they've have cornered in a ghetto. Israel has no right to exterminate the Gazans. Have the Israelis learned nothing from the WWII? They are participating in a holocaust of their own making.
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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I am AMAZED that so many people here are in support of terrorists and terrorist organizations. This was NOT an "aid" flotilla bound for Gaza and it's terrorist government and population that supports terrorism. It was an outright provocation and these were NOT "peace activists" that they are made out to be.

After all that the palestinians have been through, can you not blame them for electing "terrorists"? What about your terrorist government? What about my terrorist government?

I would remind you that Israel is the ONLY democratic state in the Middle East where rights are respected. Half of you in support of these same "innocent" people would be put to death if you were living in their countries for you sexual orientation. The other half would be imprisoned just for being on this site as "immoral."

It does not respect rights. What about the rights of the native Palestinian people? Does you memory if middle east history end pre-1940's? Your just keep buying up the horror stories the media sells you, bub.

Isreal gave numerous warnings to these ships to stop, even before they left Cyprus. They were carrying paint ball rifles when they boarded and were met with slingshots, axes, pipe, bats, etc... Is that the actions of "peace activists"? Sadly, Israel fell right into their hands in creating world sympathy.

Sounds more like Dennis the menace to me:biggrin1: When someone gets hostile to you, you have to come back in equal force. These people were not going to be pushed to one side by the IDF. They had a reason and a passion for the Palestinian people, so they were never going to just give up. Do you have any idea the efforts put into the relief boat, getting money and materials to take there? People dont just give that up.

"I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you."

How much have the lobbyists got this guy on?:rolleyes:
 

Calboner

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Nice... real nice. Destroying Gaza and then refusing to allow building materials in so that they can rebuild.
It would have been preposterous for Israel to presume that the boats contained only building materials and not any contraband, such as arms. Its forces were trying to compel the ships to land at the port of Ashdod for inspection, and five of the six ships did comply. Israel allows humanitarian aid into Gaza; it does not allow uninspected cargo.
If Israel would take their feet off of the necks of the Palestinians, they would get the security that they so crave. Until then, they are just a bunch of whiny bitch three year olds trying to force fit a circular peg into a square hole.
Israel's withdrawal of its occupying forces and expulsion of all Israeli settlers from Gaza in 2005 was immediately followed by an increase in rocket attacks launched therefrom. How you can say that Israel could get security by just leaving the Palestinians alone in the face of such history is beyond me.