Nice going Israel

[798686]

Hmmm - does seem more complicated than I first thought.

The relief ships full of activists apparently knew there would be a confrontation if they approached Gaza this way - does seem like their aim was to provoke a stand-off. :/

 

[tripod]

It would have been preposterous for Israel to presume that the boats contained only building materials and not any contraband, such as arms.

Activists carrying humanitarian aid sounds like terrorists carrying weapons to you, you are the one with the problem in perception.

The boats were organized by Israel's ally Turkey. Why the hell would Turkey allow arms and weapons on the boats? The answer is that they wouldn't and Israel was only protecting the blockade (which in many respects is illegal) not the Israeli people.

Its forces were trying to compel the ships to land at the port of Ashdod for inspection, and five of the six ships did comply. Israel allows humanitarian aid into Gaza; it does not allow uninspected cargo.

The Marmara was the lead ship and was the first ship boarded, no doubt the other ships were alerted to the deadly force used by the Israeli security forces and were taken without incident.

The cargo was inspected by Turkish authorities before the ships left port and found to contain only humanitarian aid.

 

[Bbucko]

Activists carrying humanitarian aid sounds like terrorists carrying weapons to you, you are the one with the problem in perception.

The boats were organized by Israel's ally Turkey. Why the hell would Turkey allow arms and weapons on the boats? The answer is that they wouldn't and Israel was only protecting the blockade (which in many respects is illegal) not the Israeli people.



The Marmara was the lead ship and was the first ship boarded, no doubt the other ships were alerted to the deadly force used by the Israeli security forces and were taken without incident.

The cargo was inspected by Turkish authorities before the ships left port and found to contain only humanitarian aid.

One thought regarding the cargo on these boats keeps coming back to me: if there were weapons then why weren't they used? Why would the crews resisting the IDF resort to pipes and such if they had access to something more lethal?

Nineteen people were killed here. If they had weapons and didn't avail themselves of them then they were suicidal, knowing the risks involved in what they were doing. Were they planning to be martyrs?

 

[nattynatt]

I am AMAZED that so many people here are in support of terrorists and terrorist organizations. This was NOT an "aid" flotilla bound for Gaza and it's terrorist government and population that supports terrorism. It was an outright provocation and these were NOT "peace activists" that they are made out to be.

I would remind you that Israel is the ONLY democratic state in the Middle East where rights are respected. Half of you in support of these same "innocent" people would be put to death if you were living in their countries for you sexual orientation. The other half would be imprisoned just for being on this site as "immoral."

Isreal gave numerous warnings to these ships to stop, even before they left Cyprus. They were carrying paint ball rifles when they boarded and were met with slingshots, axes, pipe, bats, etc... Is that the actions of "peace activists"? Sadly, Israel fell right into their hands in creating world sympathy.

"I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you."

I agree. The vehement hatred expressed towards Israel on this forum is staggering.

 

[tripod]

I agree. The vehement hatred expressed towards Israel on this forum is staggering.

Criticism over Israel's policies regarding the Palestinians does not equal hatred towards Israel even though you WANT it to.

Every time Israel acts like asses and someone calls them out on it, they are then labeled as somehow anti-Israel and accused of expressing hate.

Nobody here that has come out against the malicious and deadly nature of the Israeli security force's attack on the humanitarian mission has expressed hatred for Israel.

Thanks for crying wolf douchenozzle.

 

[Calboner]

One thought regarding the cargo on these boats keeps coming back to me: if there were weapons then why weren't they used? Why would the crews resisting the IDF resort to pipes and such if they had access to something more lethal?

Nobody is claiming that the ships were carrying weapons (setting aside the improvised ones used against the Israeli soldiers). The point is that Israel was preventing ships from passing uninspected into port at Gaza to be sure that they were not carrying weapons. I don't see why they should be expected to take someone else's word for it in such a dangerous situation.

Nineteen people were killed here. If they had weapons and didn't avail themselves of them then they were suicidal, knowing the risks involved in what they were doing. Were they planning to be martyrs?

This morning's New York Times says nine people were killed. That's bad enough, so I don't see the need for inflated figures.

 

[Jason]

An absolutely bullshit statement ...
There you go.... sounding like a human being. Which is it gonna be Jason?

I'm posting to register offense at Tripod's language and at his personal attack. This is not an acceptable way to carry out a debate, be it face to face, on-line or through any other medium.

For the record I am not Israeli nor am I an apologist for Israel. I have some experience of the problems of Northern Ireland. Applying the logic of the Northern Ireland conflict to the Middle East comes the realisation that neither side is ever right. The most damaging international response comes when people believe that one side or the other is the side at fault. If it were this simple it would have been solved years ago.

London has responded to the deaths with a big pro-Gaza demonstration. Of coure the demonstrators are 100% right - this is a terrible loss of life and Israel must be condemned. But they are also 100% wrong. It is at the same time a terrible loss of life for which the terrorist government of Gaza should be condemned. Just as the people on both sides of the Northern Ireland conflict were all 100% right in their views, so are people on both sides of the conflict in the Middle East 100% right. The challenge with the Middle East, as it was with Northern Ireland, is to find a win-win solution for both sides, where both sides can be right at the same time. The tragedy of the present event is that both sides are hurt. But the response of many in the West as seeing one side as guilty and the other innocent is - in view of the experience of Northern Ireland - deeply unhelpful, and the most likely way to perpetuate the problems.

The sort of bad language and personal insult of Tripod's post demonstrates the obstacle he and people with views like him put in the way of a measured response. It is very easy to say that Israel is the villain. And of course this is true. But at the same time it is wrong, and it is unhelpful to say it. The difficult thing is to say that both sides are villains, both sides are heroes. In this case the terrorists who usurped power in Gaza and are running a failed statelet to the great misery of the people of Gaza are every bit as responsible for the nine deaths as the Israelis. Tripod has every right to disagree with me. He does not have the right to do so in the offensive manner in which he has written. I know the US threads on this politics board have often degenerated into intemperate language but the UK/EU threads have generally managed to avoid this, and I recommend that we debate this Middle Eastern issue with UK/EU thread politeness.

 

[Bbucko]

Criticism over Israel's policies regarding the Palestinians does not equal hatred towards Israel even though you WANT it to.

Every time Israel acts like asses and someone calls them out on it, they are then labeled as somehow anti-Israel and accused of expressing hate.

Nobody here that has come out against the malicious and deadly nature of the Israeli security force's attack on the humanitarian mission has expressed hatred for Israel.

Thanks for crying wolf douchenozzle.

Expect cries of antisemitism whenever disagreeing with actions of the Israeli government. It goes with the territory; I'm surprised it took this long.

 

[mitchymo]

I'm still waiting to learn more. As i understand it there was trouble on just one of the flotilla. I'd like to know who was on that particular one and why the activists on that one responded differently to those on the other vessels.

I don't think blaming Israel stright off the bat is productive.
Activists are well known for creating situations and then crying when it all gets out of control.

 

[tray22nc]

First, I don't think that anyone who has posted here has said anything in support of terrorists. Perhaps those who think so, should go back and read a little more carefully.
Second, why does Gaza NEED to receive humanitarian aid? Because they have been cut off from resources by Israel. Over 1.5 million Gazans are basically being held prisoner in their own land, well their land until it was taken from them. Israel's actions scream in opposition to the very peace which they are trying to claim is the reason they have to search and/or block aid from Gaza. I have very strong ties to both Israel and Palestine, but I tend to side with the Palestinian (the citizens) view, simply because they are being held prisoner by two opposing sides...Israel and Hammas. Most people try to equate all Palestinians to Hammas, and Hammas to represent the views of ALL Palestinians. This couldn't be further from the truth.
To hear someone say that "Israel allows aid to come to Gaza" makes my entire body wretch. Israel is the reason that aid needs to come to Gaza.
There will NEVER be any sort of peace between the two sides until they BOTH stop playing the blame game. Both sides need to set aside their blame and actually move forward in making some sort of solution. But as long as Israel keeps denying human rights, there will be no peace.
And before anyone says that I am anti-semetic....I am a Jew. Jew does not equal Zionist, anti-Zionist does not equal anti-semetic. Pro-Arab does not equal anti-Israel, vice versa...I could go on and on, but it only makes me more angry.

 

[Bbucko]

Nobody is claiming that the ships were carrying weapons (setting aside the improvised ones used against the Israeli soldiers).

Really?

It would have been preposterous for Israel to presume that the boats contained only building materials and not any contraband, such as arms. Its forces were trying to compel the ships to land at the port of Ashdod for inspection, and five of the six ships did comply. Israel allows humanitarian aid into Gaza; it does not allow uninspected cargo.

Israel - and any other country - has the legal right to board a ship outside of its territorial waters (or indeed on the high seas) if it has reasonable grounds to believe that the ship is engaged in piracy or an act of warfare, including the transport of weapons to be used by an enemy. There was a case about 15 years ago when the UK seized on the high seas a ship carrying arms from Libya to the IRA - and no nation questioned our legal right to do this. It will be interesting to learn if there are indeed weapons aboard any of the ships. It will also be interesting to learn if there are such items as cement - given that the small quantities of cement that have entered Gaza so far have been put to military use.

This morning's New York Times says nine people were killed. That's bad enough, so I don't see the need for inflated figures.

The figure of 19 has been quoted several times on the first page of this thread, which is where I got it. The BBC quotes "at least ten", as does ABC. The NRO quotes 15.

I think it's fair to say that the only people who know precisely how many deaths occurred is the Israeli government.

 

[Calboner]

Really?

Let me get this straight, Bbucko: you quote my saying "It would have been preposterous for Israel to presume that the boats contained only building materials and not any contraband, such as arms" as evidence against my assertion that "Nobody is claiming that the ships were carrying weapons (setting aside the improvised ones used against the Israeli soldiers)"? Have I got that right? You really cannot tell the difference between "Israel did not presume that the boats were not carrying guns" and "The boats were carrying guns"? Or between "Israel did not presume that the boats were not carrying guns" and "Israel presumed that the boats were carrying guns"? You can't tell the difference between not presuming not-X and presuming X?

If that is the level of your competence in everyday logic, then it is plainly pointless of me or anyone to attempt rational disputation with you.

 

[Bbucko]

Let me get this straight, Bbucko: you quote my saying "It would have been preposterous for Israel to presume that the boats contained only building materials and not any contraband, such as arms" as evidence against my assertion that "Nobody is claiming that the ships were carrying weapons (setting aside the improvised ones used against the Israeli soldiers)"? Have I got that right? You really cannot tell the difference between "Israel did not presume that the boats were not carrying guns" and "The boats were carrying guns"? Or between "Israel did not presume that the boats were not carrying guns" and "Israel presumed that the boats were carrying guns"? You can't tell the difference between not presuming not-X and presuming X?

If that is the level of your competence in everyday logic, then it is plainly pointless of me or anyone to attempt rational disputation with you.

Parse it any way you'd like, but to my mind (as irrational as you evidently find it) both you and Jason have suggested in the quotes above that weapons were in the flotilla cargo.

If you find me so distractingly incompetent and illogical, I suggest that you put me on ignore. It will help keep you on a more even keel.

 

[Calboner]

Parse it any way you'd like, but to my mind (as irrational as you evidently find it) both you and Jason have suggested in the quotes above that weapons were in the flotilla cargo.

If you find me so distractingly incompetent and illogical, I suggest that you put me on ignore. It will help keep you on a more even keel.

I think rather that the burden is on you to stop being intellectually lazy -- reading your own assumptions into what people have written and clinging to them after the absurdity of your inferences has been pointed out to you -- and start showing some discernment. I regret the snide tone of my previous post, and I don't expect you to grant anything to me in the dispute over this particular point, which I am content to conclude now, but if you are interested in understanding what is going on in this affair rather than just in propagating your fixed opinions about it, you are going to have to exercise your reason more.

 

[798686]

Just to ask a question. Imagine if Iran had done this.

I think if a boat full of activists (even if taking aid) provocatively sailed through an area near to Iran that they knew would cause trouble - then they could probably expect an even worse response than the Israeli one. :frown1:

I do think Israel is being too harsh on Gaza, and provocative itself with the settlements, but deliberately sailing an aid ship through a contentious area is only gonna end in tears. :/

 

[davidhayter72]

btw just to tell you guys, I know people with families there and the supplies don't go to hamas. . people there actually depend on these supplies for survival .. I have nothing more to add. . what happened is enough to expose people's politics.

 

[Victoria]

i can't claim to know a great deal about middle eastern conflict , so perhaps i should refrain from posting anything at the risk of it sounding like ill-informed nonsense..

However. On the basis of my current very limited understanding this isn't an isolated incident , it's merely one it a long line of incidents.. a catalogue if you will that don't paint Israel in a favourable light.


In light of everything mentioned above i think (as i would of any country with a record like israels) Israel needs to be humbled and foreign governments need to stop coisiting and blindly bank rolling their regime and start holding it culpable for it's actions.

 

[mitchymo]

i can't claim to know a great deal about middle eastern conflict , so perhaps i should refrain from posting anything at the risk of it sounding like ill-informed nonsense..

However. On the basis of my current very limited understanding this isn't an isolated incident , it's merely one it a long line of incidents.. a catalogue if you will that don't paint Israel in a favourable light.


In light of everything mentioned above i think (as i would of any country with a record like israels) Israel needs to be humbled and foreign governments need to stop coisiting and blindly bank rolling their regime and start holding it culpable for it's actions.

I agree, now if only terrorist groups using Palestine as an attacking ground were to stop recieving help from other nations too.

 

[798686]

I agree, now if only terrorist groups using Palestine as an attacking ground were to stop recieving help from other nations too.

True. It seems like there's both fault and genuine grievance on both sides. :redface:

It's a really complicated situation (which I don't fully understand). Not sure how it can be fixed, other than compromise on both sides, in the hope of reaching a situation that, altho far from what either side would ideally like, would at least be an improvement on the current one.

 

[mitchymo]

True. It seems like there's both fault and genuine grievance on both sides. :redface:

It's a really complicated situation (which I don't fully understand). Not sure how it can be fixed, other than compromise on both sides, in the hope of reaching a situation that, altho far from what either side would ideally like, would at least be an improvement on the current one.

I still think that Gaza should be handed to Israel and the equivalent land given to Palestine on the coastal border with Egypt with a road built on the southern border of Israel to connect the land to the West Bank OR just to swap land next to the West Bank for Gaza. Whilst having a reliance on the neighbours works for The Gambia, Vatican, Lesotho and that small piece of Russia on the other side of Lithuania it clearly is causing more trouble than its worth for Palestine (and for Israel).