Non-believers on a PE forum?

Discussion in 'Penis Enlargement' started by Big Al, Sep 5, 2008.

  1. Big Al

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    Why do we have so many members here that don't believe that PE is possible and that feel the need to comment that "PE doesn't work" at every available opportunity? Have these gentlemen actually taken the time to learn about PE and its related subjects? Why they would even be on a PE forum without taking the time to learn about it is confusing.

    Although there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, non-believers are entitled to their beliefs; but there's no need to try and discourage other men from trying to do something that makes them feel better about themselves. As long as it's done safely and you're willing to commit to it, PE exercises enlarge the penis and strengthen it as well.
     
    #1 Big Al, Sep 5, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2008
  2. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    As a whole there is a great deal of controversy on this subject and many people have heard so many conflicting opinions over the years that it is simply easier to become a card carrying skeptic.

    The PE community has been horribly damaged by companies that promote products such as herbal oral enlargement pills and all the rest. This has damaged the credibility and reputation of those who may even have something that does work.

    The next mistake that is made is a universal one. When people begin a PE program they do not as a whole do really good before documentation photography and have themselves measured by an impartial second or third party when any documentation is done. When progress is made, it is very easy based on amateur photography to be critical of what some of these individuals have done, or to accuse them of using photomanipulation. Lighting, focal length and all photography has to be the same to be really on the spot.

    I personally would endorse using a digicam on a movie setting and going from flaccid to erect on camera. It would be possible to doctor this, but it would be very costly and difficult for most amateurs to do so without being detected. I would also make dead certain the the focal length and lighting were exactly the same without regards to the mode selected be it still photography or digital video clip.

    The final part of the equation is that those promoting manual manipulation techniques do not as a whole take into consideration the differences between individuals. Some men will have ligament structures that will stretch easily and those men will have good results. Other men as a result of genetics will have ligament structures that simply will not stretch and when that percentage gets nothing they of course go back and shake the confidence of many who may have a chance. Not every man out there is going to respond without a ligament "chop", some will and a percentage will not.

    I worked for years with Gary Griffin before his passing. I also watched how diligently he worked to try and get really decent documentation to confirm to medical standards what had been achieved in the field. As a general rule, those making claims were not able to substantiate them to a level that would be accepted by a medical journal or legitimate medicine and that was the largest problem that he had encountered.

    Yes, there are successes, but, the PE community itself needs to look very hard at the overall documentation used by the average amateur. If the documentation and or proof improves, so will the quantity of people that believe it possible and the success rate for those making attempts.

     
  3. Big Al

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    The scientific method starts with skepticism, but it's just the first step in the acquisition of knowledge. It's observation and experimentation that actually proves if and how something works.


    I agree that great before and after photos are important. They are out there, but not very easy to find. Still, there is quite a mountain of anecdotal evidence from regular posters to all of the popular public PE forums- some of who have been members for years. It wouldn't make sense to say that all of them are lying or deceiving themselves about their gains just because they didn't conduct their PE under clinical and professional conditions :biggrin1:




    While I agree that not every routine will work for every man, I do believe that there are enough variants of the PE programs available to accommodate individuals' needs. There are men that thrive on less than 10 minutes a day of intense manual work; just as there are men that do best with light, all day stretchers. The key is in testing and finding what works best for your individual needs. This means taking initial measurements, sticking to the program and not making excuses, keeping a log of all relevant PE data, and forcing progress on a regular basis. Unfortunately, most men won't commit to that level of dedication which is why there are a lot of men that have failed at PE.


    It must have been interesting to work with Mr. Griffin :smile: What ever happened to that documentation?

    The medical profession is very heavily peer based, so just saying the wrong thing can land a doctor in hot water. That's why most responsible doctors err on the side of caution. I've consulted with many medical professionals that have done PE themselves, and few of them will publicly admit it. The problem is the current stigma attached to PE- at least in the US.

    If you get the time, check out publishings from medical professionals that have written anti-PE statements. Notice how few of them won't come out and state "it doesn't work"- they'll state "this may not work" or "you can injure yourself doing these exercises". If these professionals knew the answer, they'd be certain. Worse yet is when they tell you not to worry about your penis size because "size doesn't matter".

    Just like cosmetic surgeries, lifting weights and other procedures that not too long ago were considered harmful, unnecessary and/or professionally unethical; when enough people start taking this subject seriously, legitimate PE will come into its own with time.
     
  4. tripod

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    I hate those motherfuckers and wish that they'd all drop dead. :mad:
     
  5. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    :wtf:
     
  6. Mr Ed in Mass

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    As I have stated before,I tell people " Everyone knows that PE doesn't work and PLEASE! stop stepping on my dick!!"
    Tripod and I have had big results.
     
  7. cordwainer42

    cordwainer42 Member

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    I posted this on an earlier thread, but it adds up my thoughts on skepticism and PE "proof" pretty well:
     
  8. Big Al

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    You've been on this forum since Oct.2006. Since then, have you tried doing any PE courses to completion while recording your progress using the criteria you recommended? There's no better "proof" than doing these exercises and seeing progress for yourself.
     
    #8 Big Al, Sep 14, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2008
  9. Johnny77

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    Well with just some pumping now and then and some PE exercises,
    I have gone from regular condoms to XL Magnums

    I ordered some XXL Durex online, but they are probably going to
    be too long

    funny that the XL is 1.75 inches wide by 8.5 and
    XXL is 1.625 wide by 9.5 long

    What I need is really about 1.625 by 8.5 (remembering that the condoms
    expand of course, especially width)

    I have had 8.5 length for quite some time but I have pumped to solid 9
    and I am definitely thicker

    I think PE merely maximizes what you have already, and its also
    easier to get horny when its clear your cock is larger, funny...

    Johnny
     
  10. Ed69

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    [​IMG] Non-believers on a PE forum?

    This is not a PE forum.You missed the boat!This is a support group for men that have big dicks.Not ones wishing they had it!!Go back and reread the title of this site!
     
  11. Snakebyte

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    This subforum surely IS a PE forum. Else I'd wonder why it's called "Penis Enlargement".
    It's just so many stupid guys out there, who have absolutely no knowledge, post shit here.
     
  12. Big Al

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    PE does "maximize" your genetic potential, but some very dedicated souls have managed to add an incredible amount of size. The key is sticking to a routine and forcing constant progress. Sporadically done PE rarely yields results.
     
  13. Big Al

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    You are incorrect. The title of this sub-forum is "Penis enlargement techniques and advice".
     
  14. projoey

    projoey New Member

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    can you make noticeable gains without buying anything?
     
  15. Rugbypup

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    There are very few men alive today to don't wish that there was a 100% guaranteed method to massively enlarging the human penis. Many people will tell you there is, but the sad truth is, 99.9% of these wonder routines and methods are completely discounted by modern medical science, the remaining 0.01% is at best, anecdotal, poorly documented and often subject to exaggeration.

    Pills, lotions, stretches, weights, potions... when medical science, and not some bloody internet Dr Nick Riviera, says there is a certified way to enlarge the penis, not only will I be a happy pup, but I will be first in the bloody que too, lol.

    Do what ever makes you happy guys, but it is just a big old placebo, accept it.

    Why do these so called PE gurus never post a day by day video or photo diary that doesn't cost $1000
     
    #15 Rugbypup, Sep 27, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  16. fowfer

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    #16 fowfer, Sep 27, 2008
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  17. Big Al

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    You can try the free routine.
     
  18. Big Al

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    I can post medical and scientific references to the contrary. Please post a source where this is actually discounted by medical science- besides some doctors saying it "might or might not work".

    Are you basing your statements on personal experience? Why are you skewing the subject by creating imaginary statistics? Why do you feel the need to resort to personal attacks to get your point across?

    Penis enlargement exercises are based on science. Are you familiar with Davis' Law and how it describes changes in soft tissue due to stressors? That's just one of the biomechanical principles that support PE. Why not do the exercises for yourself before you bash them. It costs nothing to do except for a little time and discipline and the ability to think a little outside the box.

    Where on Earth do you get your numbers from? As for evidence- do a search. You may not find a day to day journal containing all that you're asking for (and I challenge you to find a similar journal for any other physical improvement regimens), but there thousands of men that have posted evidence on the majority of large penis enlargement internet forums. Are all of these men wasting their time or deluding themselves? That seems unlikely, doesn't it.

    You'd do well to follow some of your own advice.
     
    #18 Big Al, Sep 27, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  19. Big Al

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  20. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    This is untrue Rugbypup (welcome back, btw:smile:). There are indeed many scams and con artists out there trying to make a buck off of men's insecurities. Some pills may help you gain slightly bigger erections by improving blood flow through the body and, therefore, the penis as well. Most do not appear to work to permanently enlarge the penis as there is no peer-reviewed documentation to back the claims. Some pills and cremes may work, but without proof of efficacy, it's definitely a realm of caveat emptore.

    Jelqing, hanging, pumping, and traction may work because the principles of their enlargement methods are medically plausible. Soft tissue under tension does undergo cellular division to create new tissue. The body does this everyday as park of the normal aging process and certainly happens when people gain weight.

    What medical science has not done is disprove these methods. There has been exactly one clinically-conducted study on jelqing published in a peer-reviewed medical journal. This was a small study in 1975 conducted by Dr. Brian Richards, a physician and expert in sexual medicine, and published in the British Journal of Sexual Medicine. He discovered that these techniques actually worked:
    After the initial measurements, test subjects were instructed in the "Chartham Method" and told to start practicing it (Tr. 139). Insofar as possible the penis of each subject was thereafter measured, in the method above described, on a weekly basis (Tr. 139, 140). Dr. Richards recorded each measurement. Of the test subjects two dropped out of the test and two achieved no gain in dimensions. Dr. Richards recorded gains among the twenty-eight remaining subjects ranging from 2.4 cm. to 3.6 cm. (.94 in. - 1.4 in.) in length and from 1.4 cm. to 3.1 cm. (.55 in. - 1.2 inc.) in girth (Tr. 142; RX-5). No changes of any significance were found in the measurements taken of the control subjects (Tr. 145, 146). He reported the success rate as 87.5 percent in the test group (Tr. 143). In Dr. Richards' opinion, the study was conducted in accordance with prevalent medical and scientific standards (Tr. 142). The report of Dr. Richards' study has been accepted for publication in the British Journal of Sexual Medicine (Tr. 143). - Appeal of P.S. Docket No. 5/102
    Dr. Richards tried to make a buck off this by offering a penis ring to supposedly help with the application of what he called, the Chartham Method, but was sued in court and lost when it was legally determined the ring didn't do anything.

    And that demonstrates why there has been so little research into jelqing. There is no way to make a buck off of it. Once the techniques are public, then the cat is out of the bag. Anyone can do these with their own two hands. External devices may help, they may not, but this does not change the fact that jelqing itself plainly works as determined by a board of expert physicians reviewing Dr. Richards' claims. Do not confuse legal findings with medical findings and, in any event, there was no claim that the Chartham method did not work, just that the ring did not.

    One university study has been proposed but to date, it does not appear to have been conducted. Other than the Richards study, there have been no medical investigations into jelqing or any other technique.

    Some doctors may claim that none of this works, however if you ask doctors upon what is the basis of their opinion, they will cite a lack of peer-reviewed medical evidence. Most doctors are completely unfamiliar with the Richards study given its age and relative obscurity. However, the fact of the matter is that the only scientific inquiry into jelqing has shown that it does work. There are no studies indicating it does not work.

    I will be the first person to stand-up and say that more studies need to be done on the various methods of PE. Had I vast wealth, I would sponsor such a study myself simply for advancement of science and my own curiosity.

    This is also not so. PE Forum, Matters of Size, and Thunder's Place each have tons of free information developed by practitioners over many years and some people have posted before and after pictures which appear to indicate growth and you can see these pictures at no cost. There is no way to prove that there has been growth as the claims of the posters have not been independently verified by a qualified physician, but they are the best proof there is until (or even if) more studies are conducted.

    You are certainly free to believe anything you want. Right now the only peer-reviewed medical evidence out there indicates that jelqing does work.

    And yeah, I'd pay attention to Fowfer. The man is legendary in the PE community for his extensive knowledge. He has even developed a jelqing exercise which has been named for him and is part of the advanced repertoire.
     
    #20 jason_els, Sep 27, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
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