Normal ...

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Nelly Gay, Jan 5, 2007.

  1. Nelly Gay

    Nelly Gay New Member

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    The media has been full of reports on British schools introducing diversity classes to deal with gay, lesbian, racial issues, etc.
    The Sun's letter page today however has this intelligent epistle from Vince Fairhust, Chester who says
    "I have two perfectly normal school-going children. They do not need to know about gays or lesbians. it is time the politically correct world was axed".
    Right ,Mr Fairhurst of Chester they will learn all about compassion and acceptance fronm you ?
    I hope his "two perfectly normal school-going children" turn out to be two perfectly normal homosexuals ...
     
  2. D_Humper E Bogart

    D_Humper E Bogart New Member

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    The Sun is read by people with the reading age of 10.

    I say no more.


    BTW, stop with the Brit-only threads, please!!!!
     
  3. ClaireTalon

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    I understand "The Sun" has a bad reputation, and is overall a hypocrite (decrying homosexuality and sexual scandals, while increasing their sales through these headlines), so I wouldn't care too much about their coverage.

    However, the author of this letter has a point, and I support him on that: Classes on political correctness are useless in my eyes. Learning about homosexuality and how to live with homosexuals should remain a private matter, and not be the subject of classes. The main influence will stay with the kids' parents, and their own views. Probably it's the best not to teach anything, and let the kids learn their lessons on these matters from life. If they are not taught about how to treat homosexuals, chances are they're going to treat them normally.
     
  4. SomeGuyOverThere

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    We have a real problem here in the UK (and probably everywhere else too) in that we have a lot of completely shit parents who don't teach their kids anything except how to be complete wastes of space.

    So the education system is stepping up to the plate to bat for the parents.

    I think this is actually the best thing they can do. School shouldn't be all about maths, science and English, it should also provide the basic means to be able to deal with life. And unfortunatly, these days, that means teaching about sex, sexuality, race, equality and to some extent, morality. Because too few people are being equipped with the correct tools to deal with life by their parents.

    I don't know whether its a modern phenomenon or what, but ccertainly from my own experience at a school with pretty awful catchment areas, a lot of the kids shoould have been educated in morality and proper social etiquette from a young age.

    The sooner and earlier these classes start (preferably about primary 5 or so) the better, secondry school is too late, they're already little asshats by then.

    Ideally, lipservice to political correctness is not the way to go, and proper understanding and wide philosophiccal views should be instilled in kids, but if making it socially unacceptable to be homophobic and racially bigoted can be achieved through the evil of political correctness, then perhaps the ends can justify the means.
     
  5. dags

    dags New Member

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    I agree with SGOT, and it's a problem that is prevelent in the US as well.
    Some High Schools over here do have G&L student services and support, but not as many as their should be. Since many G&L human beings are aware of their sexual orientation while they still are going to school why not aknowledge them and support them?
    I went through hell in junior high and high school, (1980-85) in wisconsin to boot. I was different and I was picked on, pinched so hard I had bruises, hit, pushed, threatened and other physical and verbal assults. I had to literally sneak around just to make sure nobody was following me home to kick my ass. It sucked.
    There was no support, no nothing. No wonder I hated school, I hated being there, I thought the whole little society was a joke. I could hardley wait to get a job and a place of my own. Along with family problems that didnt help I ended up moving out of home when I was 16, barely squeeked through 11th grade and did'nt finish my senior year. I only made it through 7th through 10th because I began hanging out with the only group that would accept me or at least leave me alone, the druggies, stoners, the ones who smoked ciggs on the corner across from the school. And one female friend who was tough and nobody would mess with, thank god for her!
    Now, all these years later I look back with some real sadness, I did'nt get to go to prom or even apply myself in school I was such a mess.
    I'm sorry but I am all for having some sort of education and supportive services in schools. Kids learn from thier parents, they pick up their attitudes and those attitudes serve as an example, not that individuals cant form their own attitudes and opinions, but at in those early years kids are like sponges. At the very least schools should have some sort of awareness and education about being decent civilized human beings, with all the "Diversity" we have now I think its high time we include G&L kids whio need the same fairness and respect everyone else has been bitching about and basicly demanding and feeling so entitled to lately.
     
  6. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    As a Liverpool fan....


    FUCK THE SUN.

    And he's kind of right. Political correctness is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever seen in my life. Different means preferrential treatment in today's politically correct society. My gay friends all ask to be treated normal, and not differently. Please explain to me how a class on this is treating gay people normal? Gay people are normal, I treat them as such.

    THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE NEED A FUCKING CLASS ON HOW TO TREAT THEM
    .


     
  7. B_bennekom

    B_bennekom New Member

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    Probably needed for the fuckwads Linitanny who don't have the enlightened point of view you have........... sad but true.Go to youtube and see the comments under the tug of war between Rosie O'Donnell and the Trump combover.Half the comments are about Rosie being a "fat dyke" which of course is so topical to their wrangle.
     
  8. SomeGuyOverThere

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    How enlightened your point of view is, is mainly down to how you were brought up and experiences as a child.

    And when, as is often the case, the parents are bigoted wastes of space, I think it is necissary for schools to step up and act as a counterblanace to piss poor family education, even if that means shoveing political correctness down their throats.

    The smart kids will see past the correctness, the less smart ones won't, but atleast they won't spout anti-minority rhetoric 24/7 that way.
     
  9. Heather LouAnna

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    Diversity is present. The knowledge of it's presence should be as well.
     
  10. fortiesfun

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    With all due respect, I think this is a hugely confused post. "Political correctness" doesn't mean preferential treatment, it means that discrimination shouldn't be condoned. The tired line about preferential treatment, in fact, is one of the chief rhetorical techniques in the armory consistently used by those who would deny even basic human rights to not only gays and lesbians, but most other minority groups as well. I'm glad that you both hold gay people to be "normal" and treat them as such, but I question how much you may realize about the kind of problems they face when you assert that political correctness is bullshit and repeat the disingenuous right wing party line on preferential treatment. The situation is demonstrably improved for people from all stripes of the historically disenfranchised when the considerable resources of educational curricula are brought to bear on exposing, analyzing and correcting the kinds of abuses they have suffered. It may not be fun to hear about Japanese interment camps, the holocaust, slavery, fag bashing, teenage suicide rates among gay and lesbian youth, or the myriad other examples of disenfranchisement, but how else will those who have little direct experience of being disenfranchised learn? Are you just supposed to intuit that there are other perspectives on the world, and that might doesn't make right? I contend that silence equals consent. When we fail to register that abusive behavior is reprehensible, aren't we sending the tacit message that it is okay?

    I think the example from the OP is crystal clear. The writer of the letter in question asserts that his children are "normal" and that they shouldn't even be exposed to the existence of gays and lesbians. He is not arguing against preferential treatment, he is arguing against acknowledging their existence. Seems pretty clear to me how a class might help expose those poor "normal" children to some politically correct realities about the world that they are not going to get from Daddy.
     
  11. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    I strongly disagree with you on the political corectness issue. And the "right wing party line" won't fly with me because:
    #1 I'm a libertarian
    #2 Many left wingers hold this opinion as well.

    Let me post some examples of how political corectness does give preferential treatment to those not considered the norm (which in America is mostly White, Christians).

    The first example of this is clearly evident in the college application process. I can speak of this knowing that I just went through it, as did the vast majority of my friends.

    Let me break down the four examples I'm going to use

    1) Me, White, Christian, born on the mainland, grew up on Long Island, a plethora of co-curricular activites, possible baseball scholarship, 3.7 gpa

    2) female, hispanic, christian, born on the mainland, grew up on long island, very few co-curriculars, no sport teams, 3.4 gpa.

    3) Female, white, atheist, born on the mainland, grew up on long island, many co-curriculars, 3.75 gpa

    4) Male, black, christian, born on the mainland, gre up on long island, 3.3 gpa.

    We all applied to three of the same schools

    1) Cornell
    2) NYU
    3) Penn State

    Heres how we shaked out:

    Me:
    Rejected to Cornell, deferred, then rejected to NYU, Accepted to PSU

    Number two:
    Accepted to all three

    Number Three
    Rejected to Cornell, Accepted at NYU and PSU

    Number Four
    Rejected to Cornell, Accepted at NYU, PSU.

    You cannot tell me there is no evidence of bias. All three major categories considered I got the hose for being a white, male, christian born on Long Island. I obviously have better credentials than my classmates, but did not get into the two top flight schools. I love PSU, but it's no Cornell.

    The evidence is there. Equal means preferential for minority groups.

    When I told my gay buddy about this, he was apalled. He said it was demoralizing, and flat out wrong. They want to be treated liek everyone else, not someone who you need to learn to speak to.

    More examples

    The Para-lympics for handicapped folks is called the "special olympics"
    Affirmative Action
     
  12. fortiesfun

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    I'm aware that we disagree on the political correctness issue. At the moment, however, I don't see much reason to change my mind.

    And I didn't say you were a right winger. I said that the line you are using is the party line of the right wing. Your politics are not at issue. That you uncritically repeat the political rhetoric of the right is.

    Pray tell, what left winger would you cite as holding the opinion that "political correctness is bad because it means 'preferential treatment'?"

    You are aware, of course, that I am a college prof at a college in upstate New York (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) who has followed this process for over twenty years, and that all of us who watch this closely worry, despite your specific but extremely small example, colleges (especially the Ivy League) remain overwhelmingly white and Christian. If "political correctness" is somehow giving preferential treatment to minorities, the amazing thing is that admissions to top schools are not there to account for it. Ethnic minorities (with the exception of students of Asian extraction) remain underrepresented in relation to their proportions in the general population in all 50 of the top ranked colleges and universities in America, and in all but two of them, their percentages have actually dropped in the last four years. Even students of Asian heritage have cause for complaint, as they are rejected at much higher rates than whites despite having higher admissions scores. I am afraid your example doesn't scale.

    Grammatical constructions like this one, if they crept into your admissions essay, might have had something to do with your fate, also.

    On a national scale, the evidence is not there. I'm afraid the situation remains that given vastly uneven starting places and deeply different primary and secondary educations, equal means that minorities can compete against those born to greater privilege, receiving more coaching for SAT and ACT tests, and benefiting from better college counseling, with no compensating for these uneven conditions whatsoever. Admission to the top schools in America is still overwhelmingly reserved for those from economically advantaged backgrounds, and what a surprise, that remains mostly white Christians in the US.

    Having said this, what exactly does this have to do with infusing diversity into the curriculum, which was the subject of the OP's post? I appreciate you disapprove of Affirmative Action on libertarian grounds, but that is a vastly different matter than the subject under discussion.

    And he speaks for all gay men everywhere by dint of what edict? I'm sorry to be flip, but you are surely aware that I have gay buddies, too, and they feel like maybe students ought to be taught a little bit of history, like the enormous contributions that bisexual and homosexual people have made to the history and culture, and how shabbily most of them have been treated despite this. I don't know, but maybe students would benefit from knowing that the father of modern computing, Alan Turing, for example, was forced to take female hormone injections against his will to cure his "unspeakable vice" and that his suicide was intimately tied to the physical effects that had on him. Or maybe when we read Importance of Being Earnest in school, we might be told about what happened to Oscar Wilde after he wrote it. Your friend may find that demoralizing. I find the erasing of gay history to be much more demoralizing.

    It is so hard to know where to start. The Para-lympics, for the physically impaired, are not the same thing as the so-called "Special Olympics," and I am afraid it speaks volumes that you lump them together. Second, what is so bad about calling the Olympics for those with intellectual disabilities "special?" What name would you prefer? Finally, once again, what does this have to do with acknowledging the existence of gays and lesbians in the classroom even though some British daddy thinks it is bad for his children? I'm missing the connection.
     
  13. SomeGuyOverThere

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    I approve and agree withh the above post.
     
  14. Principessa

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    In response to LINittanyLion:

    Perhaps Cornell University had already met their quota for: arrogant, loud mouth, narrow-minded, assholes from Long Island.

    Before you go all middle-class White boy righteous on me, you should know that I am a 40 year old Black woman with more degrees than wall space to put them on. I have NEVER been the receipient of a grant or scholarship intended for minorities; and I have over $80,000 in student loans to prove it.

    The ignorance expressed in your post is proof of why condoms should not only be given out for free in schools but on street corners. The fewer stupid people who breed the better.

    My advice: Qwitcherbitchin', finish your degree, and retreat to your white- bread gated community.

    You'll be happier...as will I. :biggrin1:
     
  15. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    Ironic that you call me closed minded when the first thing out of your mouth is an insult, and the second thing is racially backed tripe.:rolleyes:

    At no point did I name call during my argument. And you're right, I never should have been born because my opinion differentiates from yours.

    Before you insult my parents, they were both college grads and my dad has a masters in Business out of Hofstra. My mom is a special education teacher.

    I never name called, insulted or did anything of the sort. Your years haven't taught you common courtesy. I simply used an example of what I have experienced in my life, whereas you just decided to name call in four different ways.

    I too have student loans up the ass. I never mentioned a minority scholarship, I mentioned acceptance into higher level colleges.

    Finally, my high school was one of the most well integrated schools on Long Island. So your gated, white bread comment holds no water.

    Anything else you'd like to add? More petty attempts to insult me because of my race, location or otherwise?
     
  16. D_Herin_Ghan

    D_Herin_Ghan Account Disabled

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    I do not want to make it seem like I'm ignoring this, it's 3 am. I'll address it tomorrow.

    I just need to say one thing.

    That grammatical mistake was a simple lack of editing on my part. I'm sure you can see the difference between an internet penis message board and a collegiate application.
     
  17. Nelly Gay

    Nelly Gay New Member

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    Sadly, The Sun newspaper (like Le Monde, Financial Times and Playboy magazine ) is available worldwide so is hardly "Brit only".
    By the same token 95% of the postings on LPSG might count as "American only" ....
     
  18. Nelly Gay

    Nelly Gay New Member

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    " A private matter" ?
    Back in the closet then everybody ...
    Diversity also covers disability, race, age, women's issues etc and not just "learning about homosexuality".
    Sadly some people do not learn to live with homosexuals and choose to bomb them like David Copeland or murder them (in the case of Matthew Shepherd et al) ....
    Nobody wants "more rights" but simple basic human rights and recognition would not go amiss !
     
  19. fortiesfun

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    Your point is well taken. Of course, I understand that this is a dick board, and my posts are far from free of typos and grammatical errors.

    Best we keep it to our honest differences of opinion, and I should have stayed there. Apologies.

    I look forward to your reply.
     
  20. DC_DEEP

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    NYNL, I think you are missing the point. The parents are shrugging off their responsibility to teach their children how to function in a diverse society. The schools must take up the slack. It has nothing to do with "special treatment", and in fact should be teaching against that very thing. For what it's worth, I think Affirmative Action and quotas should be abolished immediately, and merit should be the ONLY criterion for school acceptance and workplace hiring.

    FortiesFun, I usually agree with you, but I have to take you to task on one item. Using statistics to determine whether or not the student body or the faculty "mirrors" the balance in the general population is one of the worst abuses of statistics ever. It may sound good in theory, but I'm not sure that it takes into account the intent of the people in that population. In a theoretical population 50% white, 50% black, there may be a higher percentage in one ethnic group that WANTS to study chemistry; so it does not necessarily follow that the chemistry classes should be 50/50. The same with a population of 50% female, 50% male. If, out of that group, only a small number of females want to be construction workers, that does not mean that the construction workforce should be 50/50, just because that is the general population.

    And yes, NYNL, I know all about admissions policies working against white males. It happened to me in my med school applications. Excellent GPA, 92nd percentile on MCAT, excellent interviews, excellent recommendations, not at the very tip-top for white male quota. I looked at the stats for the class that did get accepted, and I was WAY above the mean. But not accepted.
     
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