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fortiesfun

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FortiesFun, I usually agree with you, but I have to take you to task on one item. Using statistics to determine whether or not the student body or the faculty "mirrors" the balance in the general population is one of the worst abuses of statistics ever. It may sound good in theory, but I'm not sure that it takes into account the intent of the people in that population. In a theoretical population 50% white, 50% black, there may be a higher percentage in one ethnic group that WANTS to study chemistry; so it does not necessarily follow that the chemistry classes should be 50/50. The same with a population of 50% female, 50% male. If, out of that group, only a small number of females want to be construction workers, that does not mean that the construction workforce should be 50/50, just because that is the general population.
And I usually agree with you, but this time I think the burden must fall to you to demonstrate that members of traditionally underrepresented populations would not want to go to top colleges and universities if given the opportunity. Women construction workers, your point makes sense to me, but if I understand your argument, you hold that reason minorities are underrepresented at top universities is that they don't want to go there. Unfortunately, they do apply in sufficient numbers, but they are not accepted even in proportion to their representation in the applicant pool.

The myth that highly qualified white, Christian applicants are routinely shut out of top colleges by preferential treatment for minorities persists despite the fact that all evidence points in exactly the opposite direction.
 

B_bennekom

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In response to LINittanyLion:

Perhaps Cornell University had already met their quota for: arrogant, loud mouth, narrow-minded, assholes from Long Island.

Before you go all middle-class White boy righteous on me, you should know that I am a 40 year old Black woman with more degrees than wall space to put them on. I have NEVER been the receipient of a grant or scholarship intended for minorities; and I have over $80,000 in student loans to prove it.

The ignorance expressed in your post is proof of why condoms should not only be given out for free in schools but on street corners. The fewer stupid people who breed the better.

My advice: Qwitcherbitchin', finish your degree, and retreat to your white- bread gated community.

You'll be happier...as will I. :biggrin1:

What an asswipe you are.Have you totally misread what Lion's said?He never asked for your advice. The chip on your shoulder just turned into a hand-hewn beam.
 

DC_DEEP

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And I usually agree with you, but this time I think the burden must fall to you to demonstrate that members of traditionally underrepresented populations would not want to go to top colleges and universities if given the opportunity.
That was not what I said, at all.
Women construction workers, your point makes sense to me, but if I understand your argument, you hold that reason minorities are underrepresented at top universities is that they don't want to go there.
Again, that is not exactly what I'm getting at...
Unfortunately, they do apply in sufficient numbers, but they are not accepted even in proportion to their representation in the applicant pool.
Here it is. I will defer to your expertise here, because I have never been a part of an admissions board. I was simply addressing the fact that, every single time I've heard arguments for quotas in admissions or hiring, the criteria used is "those accepted do not mirror the distribution of the general public." You have brought up, for the first time, the applicant pool. Yes, I agree, if there are 50 black applicants and 50 white applicants, and 20 will be accepted, there should be 10 black and 10 white accepted, if their credentials are equal. My point is, ethnicity or gender or age or orientation or religion should be neither (I know that they do anyway, but they should not) aggravating nor mitigating factors.

The myth that highly qualified white, Christian applicants are routinely shut out of top colleges by preferential treatment for minorities persists despite the fact that all evidence points in exactly the opposite direction.
I am probably wrong, but I still don't believe that. In fact, many schools still have a "check-box" on their applications if you want to claim application preference due to some specific minority status.

After my experience in applying to med school, I believe that schools DO sometimes favor the monied white males, and sometimes the minorities. I compared my application package (GPA, MCAT, recommendations) to the statistics for those schools where I applied; I still believe that I should have been at least above the 25th percentile of those accepted. At least.
 

fortiesfun

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DC:

If I have not said so again recently, I hold you in tremendous respect, and I am very cautious about entering into any territory where we disagree. When we do it makes me carefully reconsider my own opinions to see what I might have missed, almost more than any member here. (JustAsking’s dissent, maybe, would have the same effect on me, but you are in rarified company.)

One of the reasons that I concur with you so much is that we usually approach things from the same angle, filtered through our identities as members of a so-called “sexual minority.” Before we get too far down the road of discussing college admissions, I just want to register than my original position on the main point of this thread was this one:

LINittanyLion, (who is also a fine human being with whom I just happen to disagree this time) and I’m shorthanding, used this formula:

Promotion of diversity = political correctness = preferential treatment

This is a rhetorical formula issuing from the right wing spinmeisters and though widely repeated and believed, I think both of those links are wrong, and I wanted to interrogate each of those assumptions. That is, I don’t think the agenda for those who would promote understanding of gay/lesbian rights (as well as other minority issues) is simple political posturing for the sake of appearances, i.e. political correctness. I think that most of us think the privileging of hetero-normative assumptions is harmful to everybody, heterosexuals included.

Even when it is political posturing, I don’t think the position actually held by “politically correct” types is that minorities should be given extraordinary privilege, just equal rights. As a gay man, I hear so often that granting me the right to marry someone of my same sex, for example, is preferential treatment because heterosexual privilege is based on their ability to procreate. I’ve seen you tear into that argument, DC, so I won’t dissect it again here. I’ll just note that being granted equal rights (like equal access to educational institutions, for example) is not preferential treatment, but it is labeled that way by those who would set a hidden, higher standard for minorities. You brilliantly unmask those routinely about gay right’s issues, but you interestingly come at this thread through the identity of a wronged white male, i.e. majority member, and see it through (to me, at least) unexpected eyes.

None of that has to do with Affirmative Action at all, or with the Special Olypmics either, which I considered to be red herrings, but were the stuff with which LINIttany responded to my initial dissent.

Having cleared up, I hope, what my original post was about and why I dissented from LINittany, let me make a quick hit-and-run on the admissions issue. God knows I am no apologist for Affirmative Action, nor for the current admissions systems of the Ivy League schools. In fact, I think they are deeply corrupt. I just think both you and Nittany are identifying the wrong culprit.

Let me immediate concede that admissions systems are not strictly merit based, as they should be. I think what constitutes one’s qualifications may be more complex than just the sort of statistics LINittany provided about his three comparators, but I will grant that whatever criteria is used for evaluating candidates, they are not now applied fairly and objectively. A lot of less qualified applicants are admitted over many people in the pool above them.

There are two big reasons for this, neither of which have to do with affirmative action for minorities, however. The first is that almost all elite schools admit a quota of “full pay” students who do not need financial aid to afford tuition. That quota is a carefully guarded secret, and often denied, but the fact remains that elite institutions routinely admit as much as 50% of their class primarily on the basis of their ability to pay. (For more complicated reasons that we can go into in a dick site thread, even most institutions that say they admit students on a “need-blind” basis do not actually do so.) Of course, colleges take the most qualified students they can get for those full pay positions, but wealthy students are often much less qualified than the 50% of students who need significant financial aid from the institution itself in order to attend.

The other reason is that a very sizable portion of the entering class at elite institutions is actually admitted outside the system, and by sizable, I mean nearly 20%. These are students who for some reason or other get admitted outside the standard procedures altogether. Some of those students are, in fact, bringing some qualification that makes them superior to competing peers, just not academic ones. The public is most aware of student athletes, but there are many others. The university’s symphony needs an oboe player, for example, and those are in short supply. It is easily possible that no oboe players made the cut for regular admission, so we take the most academically qualified oboe player out there even if s/he is much less qualified than the rest of the entering class.

Most of these “special admits,” however, are in another category altogether. They are admitted because they are “legacies.” That is, their parents are alums or significant donors to the institution. Colleges also admit, without competitive scrutiny, children of political figures, and others who are in a position to assist the college, outside the usual admissions procedures. (If you really want to improve your chances at getting into the college of your choice I strongly suggest that in the space where it asks for your father’s occupation you write, “grants administrator for the National Science Foundation.” Gilding the lily is suggesting that your mother is an executive in the higher education division of the Catherine T. and John D. McArthur Foundation. There is a good chance you won’t get caught lying, but will be immediately ushered into the “child of big money” pile.)

If somewhere near 20% of the entering class is made of up of “special admits,” and another half of the class is reserved for full pays, I can easily believe that both you and LINittany were screwed in the process, but not in the way you think.

The nasty secret of university admissions in our time, you see, is that both full pays and special admits, particularly legacies, tend to be overwhelmingly white, and in so far as they are have any religious affiliations, also Christian. They continue to block the access of both traditionally underrepresented students, who are never legacies and rarely have special connections, and middle-class white students. A good dose of political correctness in admissions would probably have helped both you and LINittany as it was not the minority students who account for most of that 25% of the class that was less qualified than you and got admitted anyway, but white students whose major qualification is that they come from the “right” social class.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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Pray tell, what left winger would you cite as holding the opinion that "political correctness is bad because it means 'preferential treatment'?"

Probably not the greatest example, but Bill Maher surprisingly trashed political correctness during one of the recent airings of his show.

You are aware, of course, that I am a college prof at a college in upstate New York (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) who has followed this process for over twenty years, and that all of us who watch this closely worry, despite your specific but extremely small example, colleges (especially the Ivy League) remain overwhelmingly white and Christian. If "political correctness" is somehow giving preferential treatment to minorities, the amazing thing is that admissions to top schools are not there to account for it. Ethnic minorities (with the exception of students of Asian extraction) remain underrepresented in relation to their proportions in the general population in all 50 of the top ranked colleges and universities in America, and in all but two of them, their percentages have actually dropped in the last four years. Even students of Asian heritage have cause for complaint, as they are rejected at much higher rates than whites despite having higher admissions scores. I am afraid your example doesn't scale.
Yes, but the percentage of Asian minorities who do actually attend college, is significantly higher than that of other minority groups. Therefore, colleges turn away Asians because they believe they will "have too many" so to speak, throwing off the balance they are trying to create. This is is another example of colleges using a quota to try to prevent the student body from becoming overwhelmingly one race (in this case two), rather than looking at simply merit.

I am making a direct correlation between political correctness, and colleges attempting to "diversify" campus. On my libertaran grounds, I believe that there should be no race box checked when applying for acceptance. It should be merit based, not based on things you cannot control (family income, race, gender).

Underrepresented is a matter of personal opinion. I believe that regardless of your color, if you wish for total equality in admissions, you must accept those who meet your statistical citeria based on what that student has done throughout their academic career, and how well involved said student is in the community.

On a national scale, the evidence is not there. I'm afraid the situation remains that given vastly uneven starting places and deeply different primary and secondary educations, equal means that minorities can compete against those born to greater privilege, receiving more coaching for SAT and ACT tests, and benefiting from better college counseling, with no compensating for these uneven conditions whatsoever. Admission to the top schools in America is still overwhelmingly reserved for those from economically advantaged backgrounds, and what a surprise, that remains mostly white Christians in the US.
I'm pretty sure that all the students in my school received the same college counseling...there were 9 guidance councelors total.

I wonder though, if you were to only look at the percentages of those students from each group who do attend college, would you see a higher percentage (not necessarily number of students) of minority groups at higher institutions when compared to the average white, christian.?

Having said this, what exactly does this have to do with infusing diversity into the curriculum, which was the subject of the OP's post? I appreciate you disapprove of Affirmative Action on libertarian grounds, but that is a vastly different matter than the subject under discussion.
As stated earlier, the action suggested is an example of political corectness. I am linking political correctness in the example provided, to other cases of political corectness we see more frequently in society

And he speaks for all gay men everywhere by dint of what edict? I'm sorry to be flip, but you are surely aware that I have gay buddies, too, and they feel like maybe students ought to be taught a little bit of history, like the enormous contributions that bisexual and homosexual people have made to the history and culture, and how shabbily most of them have been treated despite this. I don't know, but maybe students would benefit from knowing that the father of modern computing, Alan Turing, for example, was forced to take female hormone injections against his will to cure his "unspeakable vice" and that his suicide was intimately tied to the physical effects that had on him. Or maybe when we read Importance of Being Earnest in school, we might be told about what happened to Oscar Wilde after he wrote it. Your friend may find that demoralizing. I find the erasing of gay history to be much more demoralizing.
There is a difference between the neglection of gay history, and teaching people how to speak to treat gays and lesbians, which if I read the OP's post correctly, is exactly what was being considered here. I have zero problem integrating the sexual nature of the Athenian era, or any other era for that matter into textbooks. Many textbooks include the women of a period of time, or what another etnic group was doing in order to maintain balance. I see no reason why we could not to the same with sexual orientation.
 

kalipygian

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Curious that what was characterized as a 'brit only' thread has had such heated discussion on this side of the pond.

I favor diversity training in public schools, I think otherwise what gets passed on is mainly stereotypes. I think someone who is bothered by this is phobic, whether they admit it to themself or not.

'Affirmative action' is not a gay issue, we have always been present in all ethnic and economic groups. (we've just been obliged to hide)

It is a bit of an embarassment that apart from the Roosevelts, from an old pre english new netherlandish family, all US presidents so far have had british names. The majority of immigrants to the country over it's history are not even english speaking. A demonstration of entrenched favoriteism.

Alaska has had an active Libertarian party, had someone in the state house a couple of terms. I am a civil libertarian activist, I think that about all I hear from candidates of that party is sophomoric.
 

D_N Flay Table

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The media has been full of reports on British schools introducing diversity classes to deal with gay, lesbian, racial issues, etc.
The Sun's letter page today however has this intelligent epistle from Vince Fairhust, Chester who says
"I have two perfectly normal school-going children. They do not need to know about gays or lesbians. it is time the politically correct world was axed".
Right ,Mr Fairhurst of Chester they will learn all about compassion and acceptance fronm you ?
I hope his "two perfectly normal school-going children" turn out to be two perfectly normal homosexuals ...


Seems to me if the father is already that paranoid about his "Perfectly Normal" sons being gay...
they probobly already are..
And I hope he can deal with the two kids being extra fabulous!
:biggrin1:
 

madame_zora

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The situation is complicated, at best, and there won't be a perfect solution to an imperfect situation.

I keep hearing that we should do away with AA and "level the playing field", but education is NOT level all the way through! With this kind of thinking, a poor kid from an inner-city school who received very little college counselling, perhaps spent more time worrying about not getting shot than getting tutored in classes he needed help with- is expected to compete toe-to-toe with more privileged kids who HAD more advantage. This is a preposterous suggestion. We can't compete equally until the educational quality is equal for kids who aren't white/xian.

So gays just want to be treated "normal"- of course they do. I doubt there's a single hetero alive that regularly gets beat up for being straight. This is a regular occurance for gays though. You don't know about it because they DO shut up and keep thier dirty secrets to themselves. My daughter's high school principal told her (then girlfriend) that she shouldn't have gotten into an argument with a black girl who called her a queer because he said "At least you can hide what's wrong with you". Apparently he thinks that being black and being gay are both things to be ashamed of. I think a little diversity training would be in order.

Keeping things hidden is no solution at all. Gone are the days when the underrepresented will just quietly go away. America is made up of more than one select group of people, and we all have a right to be understood and accepted.
 

Lordpendragon

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Just as a little side note - We have a comedian called Jasper Carrot. He did a piece bemoaning political correctness and how it was limiting his traditional joke portfolio - no women jokes, mother-in-laws, any political group, social group, disabled group, religious group, racial group etc etc.

He concluded that the only people to make jokes about were people who read the Sun. Because they're too stupid to write in and complain.
 

Principessa

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What an asswipe you are. Have you totally misread what Lion's said?He never asked for your advice. The chip on your shoulder just turned into a hand-hewn beam.


So you agree with everything but my advice? Fine I wasn't looking for your approval or his. There is no chip, there never was. Unfortunately I was the only Black person to read his racist rant or I'm sure there would be much more dissent. njqt466

 

D_Herin_Ghan

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So you agree with everything but my advice? Fine I wasn't looking for your approval or his. There is no chip, there never was. Unfortunately I was the only Black person to read his racist rant or I'm sure there would be much more dissent. njqt466

Oh, so I'm racist now too.

Right. Do explain how I'm a racist, and where I insulted anyone. I'm quite interested in hearing this.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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In response to LINittanyLion:

Perhaps Cornell University had already met their quota for: arrogant, loud mouth, narrow-minded, assholes from Long Island.

Before you go all middle-class White boy righteous on me, you should know that I am a 40 year old Black woman with more degrees than wall space to put them on. I have NEVER been the receipient of a grant or scholarship intended for minorities; and I have over $80,000 in student loans to prove it.

The ignorance expressed in your post is proof of why condoms should not only be given out for free in schools but on street corners. The fewer stupid people who breed the better.

My advice: Qwitcherbitchin', finish your degree, and retreat to your white- bread gated community.

You'll be happier...as will I. :biggrin1:

Yup, I'm the racist. Just read the underlined text (ironically enough, she underlined it!). Speaks for itself.

Compare it to what I have written in this thread.

Yeah, I'm a real racist:rolleyes:
 

Principessa

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I have highlighted in red the part that makes you a racist.

Let me post some examples of how political correctness does give preferential treatment to those not considered the norm (which in America is mostly White, Christians).So I as a Black Christian am not normal?
The first example of this is clearly evident in the college application process. I can speak of this knowing that I just went through it, as did the vast majority of my friends.
Let me break down the four examples I'm going to use:
1) Me, White, Christian, born on the mainland, grew up on Long Island, a plethora of co-curricular activites, possible baseball scholarship, 3.7 gpa
2) female, hispanic, christian, born on the mainland, grew up on long island, very few co-curriculars, no sport teams, 3.4 gpa.
3) Female, white, atheist, born on the mainland, grew up on long island, many co-curriculars, 3.75 gpa
4) Male, black, christian, born on the mainland, gre up on long island, 3.3 gpa. We all applied to three of the same schools 1) Cornell, 2) NYU,
3) Penn State
Heres how we shaked out:
Me:
Rejected to Cornell, deferred, then rejected to NYU, Accepted to PSU
Number two:
Accepted to all three
Number Three
Rejected to Cornell, Accepted at NYU and PSU
Number Four
Rejected to Cornell, Accepted at NYU, PSU.
You cannot tell me there is no evidence of bias. All three major categories considered I got the hose for being a white, male, christian born on Long Island. I obviously have better credentials than my classmates, but did not get into the two top flight schools. I love PSU, but it's no Cornell.
The evidence is there. Equal means preferential for minority groups.

You need to look up the definition of equal. As I am unaware of a minority dictionary, I prefer to use my Oxford Illustrated Dictionary.

When I told my gay buddy about this, he was apalled. He said it was demoralizing, and flat out wrong. They want to be treated liek everyone else, not someone who you need to learn to speak to.
You are correct. Without affirmative action many minorities would never get their foot in the door of Cornell or many other prestigious universities. The spaces for 3.00+ GPA students with few or no activities would otherwise be filled by White 3.00+ GPA students with few or no activities. This is all that occurred in your real life example. Affirmative Action was meant to be a foot in the door. A hand up; NOT a hand out.
Ironic that you call me closed minded when the first thing out of your mouth is an insult, and the second thing is racially backed tripe
. Mmm, It should be noted that I was in the chat room a few nights ago when you and some other New Yorkers decided to reign supreme until all the good people who were there before you or disagreed with you left. I know this, because I left and came back a few times, and each time there were fewer and fewer people. You came across as a young arrogant, blowhard, and a tad bit narrow-minded.
I tried to write it off as your being homesick for NY; but aren’t you still on Christmas break?
At no point did I name call during my argument. I believe in calling a spade, a spade. You dear child are prejudiced. It doesn’t matter if you had a Puerto Rican neighbor on one side and an Asian on the other, nor does it matter that you attended an ethnically diverse high school, or that you have one gay friend. Your post clearly states that you believe Affirmative Action is the reason you did not get into Cornell University. That's racist.
And you're right, I never should have been born because my opinion differentiates from yours. Incorrect, see my signature line as to why.
I never name called, insulted or did anything of the sort. Your years haven't taught you common courtesy. I simply used an example of what I have experienced in my life, whereas you just decided to name call in four different ways. Jesus Christ! Am I the first one to call you a name you didn't like?!?! Get over it already. I’d rather be old and rude, than young and racist. There are so few Blacks on this board I don't expect anyone else to read what you wrote, and feel what I felt.
You once again showed your true colors. You came across as an angry, young, bigot who was deluded into believing he didn’t get, into the University, of his choice because a minority took his spot. You Are Wrong!
I too have student loans up the ass. I mentioned acceptance into higher level colleges.Why do you feel entry into higher level colleges and universities to be your right? Because you are White, Christian, born on the mainland, grew up on Long Island, a plethora of co-curricular activities, possible baseball scholarship, 3.7 G.P.A. <== (Those are your exact words) I am not up to snuff on college sports teams and their rankings but I am pretty sure an athletic scholarship to Penn State still holds more weight with professional recruiters than one to Cornell. * This is not meant to be an insult. è I find your use of the word mainland quite curious. I know Long Island is an island, but it’s not Hawaii. That’s not a criticism just something with which I am unfamiliar.
Finally, my high school was one of the most well integrated schools on Long Island. So your gated, white bread comment holds no water.I didn't say anything about your high school. It might not hold water now but I’d be curious to see how you feel and where you choose to live in 20 years. The fact still remains, you tolerate minorities, because you have to.
 

Principessa

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Gee, I had no idea replies were limited to only 10,000 characters! J
You have really plucked my last nerve, I am rarely this verbose.

More examples: The Para-lympics for handicapped folks is called the "special olympics" Affirmative Action

I was tempted to not touch the handicapped comment; because it doesn't belong in your rant.

However, I cannot let this slide. I feel the need to say that the Para-Olympics are for physically handicapped individuals and occur directly after the Olympics in whatever country they happen to be that year.

The Special Olympics are for those that are mentally retarded or mentally challenged and occur all over the US. I may be incorrect; but I believe they were started in the late 1960’s by one of the Kennedy women.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anything else you'd like to add?

But of course.

I graduated high school in the dark ages (1984). Around this time a number of colleges and universities decided that admission should be based on more than GPA and ACT or SAT scores. They started looking for well rounded individuals with good grades and ACT or SAT scores. A few years after that ACT and SAT scores were thought to be poor indicators of intelligence and collegiate success. Later it was decided that they needed to turn out people who were not just intelligent but who would be assets to humanity and society as a whole. Trust me; a lot of high school guidance counselors did not get that last memo.

How did your interview go?
One mans’ thoughtful pause, can be seen as another mans' nervous hesitation.

For instance, I have a cousin that works in human resources for Nabisco.

A few years ago they took a potential candidate for a high-level management position to lunch. My cousin thought the applicant had done quite well and would make an excellent addition to the team. The head of HR disagreed and since he had the final word the man was not hired.
He disagreed because the job applicant had salted his food before he tasted it. To him this signaled that, if hired, he would make snap decisions without looking at all sides of the issue. That's right, something that this man had probably done his whole life prevented him from obtaining a six figure job.

Why did I mention this? There is a really good chance, that the reason you didn’t get into Cornell, has nothing to do with Affirmative Action; or quotas and everything to do with you.

Mildly Interesting Side Note: My best friend in high school was co-valedictorian and wept for weeks because she didn’t get into Cornell University as her brother had two years before her. She had to settle for . . . Princeton. We all tried to convince her that Princeton really was a good school but I don’t think she believed us. I really must visit the Cornell campus someday and see what makes it so special.

Remind me again why you felt the need to stand on your soap box about not getting into Cornell University. Was Cornell your safe school?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but in 10 years nobody will care where you went or why you went there. They will care what you can do to make their company a success. You may want to start focusing on that instead.

One more thing, what any of this has to do with teaching British children about Gays and Lesbians is beyond me.
 

DC_DEEP

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FortiesFun, thanks for your clarifications. And don't worry if we disagree on any particular subject. We have enough mutual respect that we can discuss it rather than argue about it.

Wow, your school gives preferential admissions to musicians? I should have gone there! I had a music scholarship, but it was tuition-only; fees, books, and room & board were out-of-pocket, and those of us on music scholarship had to maintain "higher-than-retention" grades. My school did, however, have special rules for athletes. Their "scholarships" covered ALL expenses, and the academic rules for them were very lax. One of our "revered-campus-wide" English professors lost his tenure and got fired for refusing the special treatment for athletes policies. The faculty went on strike. It was truly bizarre.

I was not claiming "reverse discrimination," per se. I was just pointing out that most schools, whether they like to admit it or not, have some very lopsided and "flexible" admissions and retention policies, and sometimes those policies treat well-qualified applicants unfairly, in favor of less-qualified applicants. I just happened to be in exactly the wrong spot in the queue at that time. C-est la vie.

Madame Zora, I didn't grow up in a neighborhood where I was constantly worried about getting shot, but I was constantly worried about being murdered. If an individual had attacked me, I could have held my own, but bashers are usually cowards who travel in packs. I do fully understand about persons for whom getting a good education is difficult, but it is not impossible. If they want it, there are resources out there. Not every successful minority person had a privileged background. Well, for that matter, not every successful white male had a privileged background, either. Me, for example. Those who take the easy way out, blame everyone else for their lack of ambition, and perpetuate the "me victim" and "gimmee gimmee" attitudes do truly annoy me.

I do agree, though, that diversity training is essential. Perhaps not necessarily as a couple of blow-off classes in high school, but as an integrated part of the curriculum starting in pre-school. It wouldn't hurt for "the powers that be" to reinstate some civics lessons, either.
 

Shelby

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Typical insular high minded doesn't fly in the real world bs from the ivory tower. It sucks that kids have to wade through this kind of crap but on the other hand maybe it tempers them.

Diana Moon Glampers mf's are all in vogue now and it sucks.

ps - not directed at you DC.
 

madame_zora

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DC, I know what you're saying, and obviously I can only speak to generalisations, which don't come close to addressing every situation.

All I'm saying is that a racial imbalance exists, and to say we should just go on about our business as if everything were equal is an absurdity. It bothers me that minorities have to be exceptional to be considered equal. Exceptional people will always be fine, it's the average ones who deserve a fair shot. MOST people are average! It bothers me that average minorities face a fairly hopeless future.

My daughter's not in college at all. Dad makes too much, although he is so sick he spends more than he makes on prescriptions. I have horrible credit and no real job, so she's fucked. Can't get grants, loans or even a fair hour of a counsellor's time to discuss her options. I know what you mean about things being unfair. When I had a similar scenario twenty some years ago, I was able to make it work. Yes, there are black kids whose parents are on welfare that have an easier time getting into school, but I asked Julianna if she'd trade lives with them for that, and she basically said "nigga, please". Anyone, search your soul and ask yourself if you would trade lives with an impoverished black kid for his perceived "benefits" before you get too upset.

I know the system isn't fair, but I see it as a fairly small consession. The only way we will EVER achieve anything close to racial equality is when there are more educated minorites who are qualified for better paying jobs. It's coming around slowly, and yes- it does tread on the rights of whites who are alive now. What else would you suggest we do? If we don't do that, then we have to just expect them to perform equally even though their educational options are at a great disadvantage. It's a simple question of who has to take it up the ass, and I think blacks have been taking it long enough. Time to share the joy, so to speak.
 

Lex

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...

All I'm saying is that a racial imbalance exists, and to say we should just go on about our business as if everything were equal is an absurdity. It bothers me that minorities have to be exceptional to be considered equal. Exceptional people will always be fine, it's the average ones who deserve a fair shot. MOST people are average! It bothers me that average minorities face a fairly hopeless future.
...

This upsets me too. As an "exceptional minority" I have been able to overcome my upbringing in the hood of Balmer (Baltimore) to go to top schools and have a successful career and STILL I face tons of discrimination. I often wonder (and have mentioned before) about the bright kid who is trying his/her damndest and will be shut out of opportunities based on her parents not being able to advocate for a transfer to a better school (an "A" is not an "A"). Had my mom not sent me to a better school 4 blocks away (after she figured out that I was getting into trouble because I was bored), I would not have possibly gotten to where I am today.

Fair is not treating everyone the same; fair is giving everyone what they need.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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I have highlighted in red the part that makes you a racist.

So I as a Black Christian am not normal?

Don't put words in my mouth, seeing as I never said that. I said what by mainstream America would be considered the norm (aka majority, hence the use of the word minority throughout my text). Don't get all sophist and look for any little slip up as a case that I'm a racist. I'll be sure to tell my big brother (who I picked in my fraternity, and is black) that I'm a little bigot.


You need to look up the definition of equal. As I am unaware of a minority dictionary, I prefer to use my Oxford Illustrated Dictionary.
I believe you should look up the definition of libertarian. Official Website of the Libertarian National Committee

I'm pretty sure I know the definition of equality.

You are correct. Without affirmative action many minorities would never get their foot in the door of Cornell or many other prestigious universities. The spaces for 3.00+ GPA students with few or no activities would otherwise be filled by White 3.00+ GPA students with few or no activities. This is all that occurred in your real life example. Affirmative Action was meant to be a foot in the door. A hand up; NOT a hand out.
Numbers are numbers. If a student has the ability to be in Cornell, they should be. If you read, this has been my argument all alone. Black, white, purple or otherwise. If you have the grades and resume, you should be allowed in.
Mmm, It should be noted that I was in the chat room a few nights ago when you and some other New Yorkers decided to reign supreme until all the good people who were there before you or disagreed with you left. I know this, because I left and came back a few times, and each time there were fewer and fewer people. You came across as a young arrogant, blowhard, and a tad bit narrow-minded.
I tried to write it off as your being homesick for NY; but aren&#8217;t you still on Christmas break?
While you were out of the chat, you missed the coming of a pedophile and a person calling others racist because of their taste in movies. You do not know the circumstances seeing as you weren't in the chat at that time. It can also be duly noted that as time went on, it got later in the evening (or early morning for the UK folk) hence why it emptied out. Again, stop using rhetoric to prove your point, you have yet to give me solid proof as to where I have said anything bigoted.
I believe in calling a spade, a spade. You dear child are prejudiced. It doesn&#8217;t matter if you had a Puerto Rican neighbor on one side and an Asian on the other, nor does it matter that you attended an ethnically diverse high school, or that you have one gay friend. Your post clearly states that you believe Affirmative Action is the reason you did not get into Cornell University. That's racist.

Incorrect.
I simply posted an example of political correctness giving preferential treatment. It should be noted that my black friend DID NOT get into Cornell. I never said I didn't get in because of preferential treatment. You are simply making broad generalizations based on my post. Before you make a counter argument, please read it again in full; as everythiong you have accused me of has never appeared in my text.

Incorrect, see my signature line as to why.
I think you should be the last of all people to be throwing the word bigot around. All I've gotten from you is that I'm a racist for disagreeing with affirmative action.


Jesus Christ! Am I the first one to call you a name you didn't like?!?! Get over it already. I&#8217;d rather be old and rude, than young and racist. There are so few Blacks on this board I don't expect anyone else to read what you wrote, and feel what I felt.
You once again showed your true colors. You came across as an angry, young, bigot who was deluded into believing he didn&#8217;t get, into the University, of his choice because a minority took his spot. You Are Wrong!
Racism n - hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I have yet to see where you connect what I have wrote to that definition.

.Why do you feel entry into higher level colleges and universities to be your right? Because you are White, Christian, born on the mainland, grew up on Long Island, a plethora of co-curricular activities, possible baseball scholarship, 3.7 G.P.A. <== (Those are your exact words) I am not up to snuff on college sports teams and their rankings but I am pretty sure an athletic scholarship to Penn State still holds more weight with professional recruiters than one to Cornell. * This is not meant to be an insult. &#232; I find your use of the word mainland quite curious. I know Long Island is an island, but it&#8217;s not Hawaii. That&#8217;s not a criticism just something with which I am unfamiliar.
I didn't go to school for athletics, I went for meteorology. I simply posted that as an example of my achievements.

And I'm calling foul on what you wrote again. I FELT I SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO CORNELL BECAUSE I HAD ACHIEVED MORE THAN MY COLLEAGUES, NOT BECAUSE I'M WHITE, FROM LONG ISLAND OR OTHERWISE. STOP WITH YOUR SOPHIST BULLSHIT, IT'S RIDICULOUS AND INSULTING.
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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To the LION!

This may be very mean, but I know I AM the shiznit when it comes to hazardous science, but doesn't stop be getting booted out of job interviews. I'm sure there's more to this than just numbers. After all, I'm a 3rd Class Degree student...and I just got two phone calls from the same guy asking me if I'd take up a job offer FROM HIS HOME!

Contacts, skill, luck can make up for flaws in talent in the education system...remember kids, make friends with your boss.

But get an edjumacation!
At the end of the day, unless your uni is the top 5 elite, no one gives a shit where you went, just as long as you came out with some kind of substance..so crying about it isn't a big deal unless there were social/financial implications, whatever.

Oh, and neutral politics ftw.

Annnnnnnnnnd on topic:
I feel that homosexuals need to be TREATED AS HUMAN BEINGS! Why is 'gay' an insult, why are lesbians only seen as sex objects by heterosexual males? Young gays and lesbians must be so confused with the messages that society breathes out.

And I think children have a RIGHT for the acknowledgement that gays and lesbians are normal! No graphic sex acts, no dildo tips, just a plain argument of what kind of people actually exist!