Not helping themselves.

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Imported, Oct 25, 2003.

  1. Imported

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    aj2181: I was watchin C-span the other night when the Senate Judiciary Committee was conducting the conformation hearing for Justice Janice Rodgers Brown, nominated for the D.C. Circuit Court of Apeals.

    I know some may gasp when I say this but the way the Democrats behaved was in my opinion shameful. At the very least it was not gentlemanly. Sen. Durbin D-ILL made an opening statement for the Democrats that sounded like an indictment. Sen. Leahy of Vermont made remarks much the same and made statements about the degeneration of committee hearings into political shouting matches etc. while making digging comments about the republicans. I was 'put off' by the whole thing. Sen. Hatch, Chairman, R-Utah was talking as if the women was Gods gift to the Judiciary.

    I have nothing but admiration for Senator Spector of Pennsylvania who said flatly "I don't know you so I'll wait to make up my mind about you" I thought that was a sign that not all our politicians are bad news. Spector is a good man....maybe he should be the one nominated for the courts.

    What do you all think of the state of American Politics? Has it degenerated into a mud slinging match with no substance and no aim for the country?
     
  2. Imported

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    gigantikok: [quote author=aj2181 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#0 date=10/25/03 at 14:34:09]What do you all think of the state of American Politics? Has it degenerated into a mud slinging match with  no substance and no aim for the country?[/quote]
    Yup.

    There are exceptions of course, but for the most part...

    Yup.
     
  3. Imported

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    aj2181: Well if thats the case how do we fix it?

    I for one don't want it to be that way.
     
  4. Pecker

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    Well, fellas, as vitriolic and as nasty as some of the exchanges and remarks are that our senators and congressmen make in the hallowed halls, just be glad that they are just plain civilized when compared to their brethren in other countries' parliaments, senats, knessets, etc.

    :-/

    Pecker

    (So many jerks. So few bullets.)
     
  5. Imported

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    aj2181: Good point Pecker.

    Some of the debates in the House of Commons are somethin else to listen to.

    I think a more volitile legislature is a feature of parliamentary democracy as opposed to our system.
     
  6. Imported

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    pghcyclist:
    "The value of government to the people it serves is in direct relationship to the interest citizens themselves display in the affairs of state." William Scranton (former governor of Pennsylvania)

    I am hardly unbiased about Arlen. I've met him. The man solicited me for an endorsement when he ran for re-election in 1992, and he lied to me. One thing I do is not allow politicians to blatantly lie to me. It was even a very stupid thing to lie about (his literature claimed he was an original cosponsor of some legislation. He was not. I asked him and he admitted it was an error (campaign staffs do make errors). He said it would be corrected. It wasn't.)

    But, on the topic of Justice Janice Rodgers Brown, this is a woman with a long public record. Arlen's statements in Committee might be appropriate if the nominee in question had little public record or an ambiguous public record. This woman is on the California Supreme Court. She wrote an opinion upholding a ban on affirmative action that was right-of-center that while the majority of other justices agree with the findings, some couldn't agree with the language she used in her decision. They wrote their own opinion.

    In April 2000, she said at a meeting of the Federalist Society at the University of Chicago Law School that "where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and ability to control our own destiny atrophies." A result, she said, "is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." I can only wonder what she'd think of LPSG. (When questioned about this, the Justice commented that they were just speeches -- "simply stirring the pot a little bit, getting people to think, to challenge them.")

    Governor Scranton's quote is apropos. Citizens who want good government have a duty to pay attention and educate themselves, not just by watching CSPAN, but also learning the context of the debate taking place.

    Scott
     
  7. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: how do we fix it?...simply term limits...eliminate the career politician...PERIOD...thats not the way the system was originally designed...its morphed over time into this perverse system of special interests and bullshit...give an ordinary mechanic...or store manager a 4 year term, closed ended, and let the COMMON MAN make the laws...hey...im a republican myself...so dont throw me out thinking im some goofy liberal...and BRW. as long as im RANTING...LIBERALS are on the fast track to ruin this country...trying to turn us into sheep...'dont worry...its ok your lazy...or have this little disfunction... we'll give you some money to stay home...KISS MY ASS!
    :mad:
     
  8. Imported

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    H8Monga: REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    How about another civil war? Anyone game?
     
  9. Imported

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    pghcyclist:
    Piffle. First, it is a nice myth that the system wasn't designed that way. However, many of the founding fathers were in fact what today would be called "career politicians".

    But that is beside the point. The real point is that, term limits are simply stupid. There is value in institutional knowledge. Major corporations know this -- that is why people with years and years of experience get paid more money. For example, when a person makes a mistake, they are less likely to repeat it. Just like corporations, government is the same. States that have term limits have found that legislators:
    1) take time to learn the system, and just when they do, they have to leave
    2) repeat mistakes made 10, 15, 20, etc years before.
    If you don't like what someone is doing, vote them out. Of course, that means you have to actually pay attention to what that person is doing in office. Most people don't do that.

    One of the problems that needs to be fixed is this total distrust of politicians. I've already explained that I won't vote for someone who blatantly lies to me. Often I hear, "oh, all politicians lie." It is just that type of complacency on the part of citizens that allows politicians to lie and get away with it. If they didn't get away with it, they wouldn't do it.

    I know who my representatives are. I see them often. I speak to them. I know how they are voting. I visit them in their offices and I talk to them about my concerns. I am in a very small minority of people in this country.

    It is easy to blame some amorphous evil like the career politician. It is a lot harder to blame the person who voted for them, or perhaps didn't vote at all

    Scott
     
  10. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: scott...you have made my point for me...'the system'...thats the whole problem...these career politicians have made the government...a 'system'...i will give you points for the voting thing though...that is a truth...but the way that the government was originally set up by the founding fathers...was for an ordinary guy to go and REPRESENT his constituents...the people from his township...his neighbors...friends...people he goes to church with...and then come home and go back to work on his farm, store or whatever...not to join the special interest lecture circuit...the guys in there now are so far removed from real life...the life the most of us know anyway...the people that they represent...its not even funny...and i think anyone that argues that is just unaware...
     
  11. Imported

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    SpeedoGuy: How do we fix it?

    I don't think its term limits. There is no need to disqualify candidates simply because they have experience on the job. Besides, I think elections already serve as very effective term limits.

    I think the answer is: bona fide campaign finance reform. Its no joke that we have the best Congress that money can buy.

    Also: I think we all could probably use some lessons in decorum, respect, civility and patience in our dealings with each other. IMHO, these are qualities that are lacking just about everywhere I look. Our public figures need to lead the way and provide some sound examples of public civility and respect. Then the media should publicize them. Unfortunately, this is not the case because our politicos and opinion makers seem to be kicking sand as fast as the rest of us because they know it appeals to our base instincts for conflict and confrontation. Its really our fault and its too bad because we are not well served by such an attitude. Name calling and ridicule are very short term solutions and the longer term consequences, I think, are a gradual coarsening of behaviorial norms.

    I'm not suggesting that we all need to always hold hands and sing kum-bye-yaa together but too many discussions on any topic seem to degenerate into flaming contests, flinging simplistic one-liners or outright shouting matches. With such a social climate in force, it shouldn't surprise anyone when the perception arises that the most noteworthy way to make a point is simply to act more like an outrageous asshole than an opponent. We see too much of this from both sides of the political fence.

    I know,  I know. We all admire a quick wit and we chuckle when we see a favored commentator or politician use a figure of speech or clever sound bite that makes the opposition look ridiculous. I do it too. But ask yourself, are constant ridicule, mockery and sarcasm serving us well? Are they adding to the quality of the debate? What is that the legacy we want to be remembered for?

    just my two cents worth

    SG
     
  12. Imported

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    aj2181: Hell what kind of debate did I start.

    Who would have thought a thread where I actually take the time to criticize my own party would get so nasty so quick.

    Before you go blameing Liberals for everything remember there were Republicans up there in Washington too. There is plenty of blame to go around.

    As far as Sen. Spector is concerned I only meant to comploment his deportment during the hearing. It bespoke a professionality that was lacking in most of the others.

    Term limits are bunk! Total Bull! Thats what elections are for! If you dont like whos serving vote for someone else!

    "as long as im RANTING...LIBERALS are on the fast track to ruin this country...trying to turn us into sheep...'dont worry...its ok your lazy...or have this little disfunction... we'll give you some money to stay home...KISS MY ASS!"

    Yet another example of the right wing perspective...skewed beyond all recognition, cold and unfealing.

    Let me assure you i'm not in favor of Justice Brown for any bench anywhere. She was answering questions which is more than i can say for Miguel Estrada.

    Well said Speedo. I'll leave it at that.
     
  13. Imported

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    longtimelurker: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#6 date=10/25/03 at 16:48:17]...as long as im RANTING...LIBERALS are on the fast track to ruin this country...trying to turn us into sheep...'dont worry...its ok your lazy...or have this little disfunction... we'll give you some money to stay home...KISS MY ASS!
    :mad:[/quote]

    Yeah, sorry - but I'll have to take issue with this as well.

    What do you want to do with the disabled? It will be a lot harder for them to find work, as I'd imagine well over 90% of employers would discriminate in favour of the able-bodied employee at interview and believe it or not, most unemployed do feel a loss of worth and purpose with losing their job - I have seen it with my own father when he was made redundant and had a 10 month spell of unemployment.

    So - do you support them through their situation, or do you let them slowly fade away, first defaulting on their debts, then losing their house and ending up homeless on the streets? It is shown 90% of the time that crime prevention with a good support system is cheaper than catching and imprisoning people after they have been driven to offend. And remember - the US has the highest prison rate in proportion to population in the world (0.686% of your population is behind bars - 3/5 of countries have below 0.150%) - I don't believe that a higher proportion of Americans are bad people in comparison to the rest of the world - but there is something in your system that is failing a LOT of people.
     
  14. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: driven to offend...spoken like a true liberal...its always a choice my friend...always...get to studying your statistics again my friend...look up the period of the american great depression...tons of americans out of work...in that book of statistics you are going through...tell me...did crime go up during that time...or did it go down?...when things are at their worst...Americans are at their best...something a non- american could never grasp...we are not talking about the prison system here...thats a totally different matter...what im talking about is...liberals want MORE government...bribing the people in a sense with givaways...in exchange for a small piece of their freedom...i dont have any idea how un-employment works over there....but its an insurance that businesses pay monthly to cover their employees in case of layoffs etc...but its a part absorbed as an expense of doing business...i stand as i am...
     
  15. Imported

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    aj2181: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#13 date=10/26/03 at 15:41:47]what im talking about is...liberals want MORE government...bribing the people in a sense with givaways...in exchange for a small piece of their freedom. . .[/quote]

    A modern Liberal thinks that Government can be used as a tool to aid people who are down trodden. Our goal is to give the people the tools to up-lift themselves. Speaking for myself...not for anyother Democrats or Liberals I think our social programs are worthwhile and need to be continued however they need to be reformed to get people, not into a state of dependence but to a state of 'in'-dependence.

    I'm not at all happy with the shit the LA Times pulled in Cali....I dont like attack adds and I dont like nasty campaigns. The sad thing is both parties do that. I dont think you can blame it all on Liberals.

    Jerkin you came out swingin and set the tone as do many other conservitives.
     
  16. jonb

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    And during the Depression, the government had a whole variety of programs to help people out, the same ones freepers bitch about today. Remember that whole "New Deal"?
     
  17. Imported

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    Tender: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#12 date=10/26/03 at 03:27:36]

    What do you want to do with the disabled? [/quote]


    depends on your definition of disabled....
    my bro claims to be disabled, and so does his 'wife'
    truthfully, they are just bums. period.
    and i pay for it with my tax...


    Tender
     
  18. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: i promised myself not to get into this this morning...my BP was up 20 points yesterday...there are so many abuses in the 'welfare' system today...the 'raises' for more children...taking a 'test' to get 'crazy' money...just to name a couple...and true enough...there are lots of people who deserve some sort of assistance...but unfortunately more...that are receiving it...do not...and should be put on some sort of training or re-education program to make them employable at some level....hey...everyone stubs their toe once in a while...and when the system was originally put into place, it was temporary...and also for WW2 widows...until they could get back on their feet...now its morphed into this mess that it is...soon it will be 50% of the population working and supporting the 50% that wont...but the answer is not this 'feel good' crap that the liberals promote...be responsible for yourself...the answers lie in this statement i believe...'when your brother comes to you and is hungry...teach him how to fish'...handing someone a fish is the easy fix...but what happens when that fish gets digested...but if you educate the people [that are teachable, there are some that arent]...people can work...ive got an 82 year old grandmother that works 3 days a week at an antique mall...8 hours a day...got a friend that lost his leg in the military...couldnt get a store bought...wouldnt get a wheelchair...got around on crutches...worked at the employment security division...people CAN work...working...being productive....makes you feel good...supporting your family...makes you feel good...THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS...SOME PEOPLE CANT WORK...THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS....SOME PEOPLE CANT WORK...but the ones that can...by God...should be...
     
  19. Imported

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    longtimelurker: Well I can't honestly comment on your welfare system as I haven't experienced it and I don't know how it works. However over here we have training schemes whereby to be able to claim your unemployment benefit (renamed Job-Seekers Allowance by this government) you have to be able to show that you are actively looking for work and, I'm certain, have to undergo a period of free college training if your period of unemployment extends beyond a certain period of time.

    This scheme has allowed our unemployment rates to fall to historic lows of 5% - in a period generally classed as a world recession.
     
  20. Imported

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    longtimelurker: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#13 date=10/26/03 at 15:41:47]...when things are at their worst...Americans are at their best...something a non- american could never grasp...[/quote]

    I'm sorry, but from a country where people had to endure almost nightly bombings fearing for their lives, whilst not knowing whether their loved ones would return home alive or in a coffin whilst having to live on practically starvation levels of food whilst still being able to soldier on and win a war, I'd say that the British, and the majority of Europeans are at their best when the situation is at its worst as well. (not mentioning the post-war aftermath of unemployment and unrest...)

    I'm just glad that my great-grandparents showed the courage and resolve that they did and hope that I, myself will never be forced to.
     
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