Notes from the 'frontline'

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mindseye: Well, this place was called a battleground earlier this week. I'm hoping to change the tone of the discussion -- my own tone, and that of a few others on here -- and I'm thinking that starting a clean, fresh thread might help with that:

Let's assume that the situation as it stands is permanent -- censorship of any topic is unlikely to take place here, the splinter group that da_blissmachine created will remain, and the members that have departed won't change their minds and rejoin us.

So, here's my topic: What now? How would you proceed constructively towards reinforcing the embattled sense of community and support we have here? What relationship (if any) between this board and the splinter board would best serve the members of both boards? If you're unhappy with Mark's decision, but choosing to remain a member of the board, what steps are you taking to resolve your ethical conflict?

 

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gigantikok: Well, my opinion in regards to the drama and the splinter group is plain and simple: none.

It's just that.  There doesn't need to be drama between us and the departed members on the other board.  It is just another website.  You can choose to love it and associate yourself with it and stay here and no one will give you flack because ultimately... no one should be holding hate or contempt for the other board.  Those people stood up for what they believed in and took action.  Power to them.  The two sites don't have to be connected.  You don't have to join both.  But it doesn't have to be an issue.  Drama is only created when one (or a group of people) put more emphasis on something (event or person) then otherwise deserved.

Let's let the smoke clear and move on with our lives.

 

[Pecker]

I've been with LPSG for some years now and I have no plans to change that.

I'm currently not looking for other Big Dick boards but I'm sure that others that have done so haven't had difficulty belonging to more than one (but why would anybody need something other than the Best on the Internet?)

Mindseye, I'd say just let things progress naturally.  It worked before.

Pecker

2,400,000 Americans play the accordian - hopefully not at the same time.

 

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mindseye: ..so, now that I've posted the question, I'll contribute some thoughts of my own:

• Mark's statement was definitely radical; I think it's also been blown out of proportion. Except for the occasional isolated incident where someone joins the board just to provoke a reaction, we've been amazingly problem-free for an 'adult' board with this many members.
  
  We've gotten by for years without any type of censorship, and we really won't need it in the future, because -- by and large -- posts about bestiality, incest, child abuse, etc., just don't happen here. There are the occasional example -- but this board is hardly a haven for those topics, and I don't think that's going to change any time soon.
• I've made no secret which side of the fence I'm on. I support individual freedoms. But I also believe that freedoms need to be balanced -- the freedom to offend needs to be countered with an equal freedom to defend. To that end, I've rushed out some new features that will allow people to defend themselves against offensive topics. (And unfortunately, since I rushed them out ahead of schedule, there have been a few minor glitches, but I'm trying to stay on top of them.) I'm open to feedback as to how these features can be made more useful.
• I thought I'd share this article from September 2002, about how a different online site handled accusations of supporting child abuse. (It's a site you've heard of before...lawyers never shut them down either.)
• I'd like to see the other board change its name. I've heard people claim that it's not just a 'protest' board, but it is. When a political candidate gets on television and calls himself (or herself) 'the honest candidate', there's clearly an insinuation that their opponent might be less than honest. Or when a bank advertises that they're 'the bank that listens', that's implies that other banks don't. By naming their group after ours, they've explicitly cast an aspersion on us. A unique name would help the group to establish its own identity, as well.
• Finally, I think the group could use some pedophiles so that someone around here would be in a good mood!

 

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mindseye: ...also, the moderator of this group went AWOL leaving some posts sticky. I'd like to 'unstick' the farewell thread and let it farewell on down the board. Any objections?

 

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gigantikok: Nope.

 

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7x6andchg: Mindseye - I think that is the best way to let things progress forward. It isn't as though the thread disappears if it is made unsticky.

 

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throb919: [quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1068262917;start=0#0 date=11/07/03 at 19:32:57]What now? How would you proceed constructively towards reinforcing the embattled sense of community and support we have here? What relationship (if any) between this board and the splinter board would best serve the members of both boards? If you're unhappy with Mark's decision, but choosing to remain a member of the board, what steps are you taking to resolve your ethical conflict?[/quote]
Mindseye--You asked several thoughtful questions and I'd like to respond.

• What now? Nothing now. Unsticky the "farewell" posts and let's move on.
• Things work out, dust settles, smoke clears, life goes on, Tony talks in clichés. The sense of community and support remains and manifests itself in threads all around us.
• I see no relationship between the boards nor is it LPSG's responsibility to "reach out." I vote against opening diplomatic relations or setting up a consulate over there. (I mean--not that we're a voting democracy or anything--God knows!) (I'm kidding, I'm kidding...)
• I'm perfectly fine with Mark's decision. I am not conflicted; I easily grasp the difference between fiction and fantasy and real-life.
  
  Carry on...
  
  Thanks,
  Tony
  

 

[Pecker]

Having been named Moderator of this section now, I agree with Mindseye about letting things go, and I've 'unstickied' all the sticky topics here.

Lower your chin, suck in your belly and adjust your bulge, guys.

LPSG has weathered the storm.

Pecker

I sure am glad I'm not bisexual. I couldn't stand being rejected by everybody!

 

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mindseye: Hey, folks, thanks for the great ideas and feedback so far. Thanks also to our guest lurkers who've e-mailed me from afar.

Here's another question while we're working through this: Say you got to draw the line? Would you have the heart to draw it fairly to all people?

Here's what I'm getting at. I've been a participant in other message boards before where sexual issues come up, and periodically some member needs to go through the catharsis of relating a terrible sexual experience that they've lived through:

"I've never told this to anyone else, but back when I was 15, my dad came home drunk one night and [. . .]"

Most reasonable people feel an immediate tug of compassion because the rest of the story is usually brutal and traumatic. There are usually several offers of support and well wishes. And there is rarely a clamor to delete the post or ban the user because the post contains a textual description of explicit sexual contact between an adult and a minor.

If, on the other hand, the dad was the one who had posted -- well, then what? If the dad is sufficiently contrite: "Back when my daughter was 15, I did something terrible -- I don't know what came over me, but . . .", maybe some people would be outraged, but a lot of people would be willing to suggest appropriate venues for counseling and therapy. On the other hand, "Whooee, my daughter's hot! Only did her once, but let me tell you how tight she was . . ." would evoke a much more hostile emotional reaction, and probably many demands to delete the sicko's post.

In all cases, the content of the post is the same -- one poster is describing a sexual act in which they were a participant. How we react to them is based on who is posting the story, and the type of attitude they're showing.

Would you delete all three of these example posts? Would you allow them all to stand? And if you'd delete some but not others, how do you draw that line?

 

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aj2181: I think we just need to move on. We've debated it back and forth and the best thing to do is wish those who have left well and go on with our on-line lives.

 

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wvalady1968: You've given people the ability to defend themselves and avoid posts and posters they may find offensive.

And you've made an excellent case for having no censorship.

I agree we should move on.

 

[Pecker]

[quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1068262917;start=0#9 date=11/08/03 at 14:31:52]...Would you delete all three of these example posts?  Would you allow them all to stand?  And if you'd delete some but not others, how do you draw that line?[/quote]

You've given us an excellent example, Mindseye.

Read Mindseye's post again carefully, guys, especially the last half, and think it over.

What would you do?

 

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Tender: On the other hand, "Whooee, my daughter's hot! Only did her once, but let me tell you how tight she was . . ." would evoke a much more hostile emotional reaction, and probably many demands to delete the sicko's post.

i think deleting this post would be best.
however if the owner of the baord allows it to stand, that is his business. doesnt mean i agree with it being here.

Tender

 

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jackinman: I'm speaking for myself right now. I would have to draw the line with the last post, ( "Whoeee my daughter'is hot"), and delete it. The poster is not looking for any support whatsoever. He seems to be gloating at the fact that he had sex with his own daugther. So in my book this guy is a sickie and his post should be deleted.

However, I agree with AJ and Tender.....it's time to move on.

 

[Pecker]

Unless I had a mob of villagers with pitchforks and torches milling around my house, yelling threats and banging on my windows, I don't think I'd delete any of those posts.

The "father" who thinks his daughter is hot would get a rise out of me: I'd probably call him a sick bastard but then I'd follow up with constructive comments and advice aimed at helping him (and hopefully rescuing his poor daughter from further abuse).

I have a strong feeling that such a father's post would get so much response on this board that there wouldn't be enough space on the hard drive to hold all of them.

Pecker

I have kleptomania. When it gets bad I take something for it.

 

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Donk: Having gained a better understanding of the controversy over the last few days, I am taking a wait and see attitude.

Mindseye, you make some good points and I appreciate the new and reasonable tone you have encouraged the discussion to take.

My main concern is that this board not become a haven for child pornography and the pedophiles who produce and consume it. This concern is not just about simple expression, it is about the potential of real victimization. I am capable of distinguishing between fact and fantasy and abstaining from reading fantasy accounts that offend me. Pedophiles, by nature, have trouble making that distinction.

This board has actual real-life minors who view it and participate in discussions. The "young and hung" are specifically encouraged to participate. As long as this forum remains a place where people in that category can safely come to terms with the troubles and joys of growing up with a large penis, that's legitimate. But it cannot be denied that the presence of these kids is a temptation to those sick adults who harbor fantasies of preying on them.

As mindseye notes, as of now, this board has not yet become a haven for pedophilia. Some of the discussions about the recent controversy gave a different impression, and I'm glad to learn that this problem was overblown.

The best way to prevent a problem is for those of us who participate in this board to use our own common sense and, if an actual pedophilia issue crops up, band together to prevent those predators from hijacking our community. If we ever do have a problem with significant posting of pedophilia-related material, and if, at that time, no steps are taken to stop it, I would feel compelled to disassociate myself.

 

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longtimelurker: [quote author=Donk link=board=99;num=1068262917;start=0#16 date=11/09/03 at 10:55:52] If we ever do have a problem with significant posting of pedophilia-related material, and if, at that time, no steps are taken to stop it, I would feel compelled to disassociate myself.[/quote]

I haven't made my position completely clear on the issue as of yet, but my thoughts on the matter coincide pretty much with Donk's.

As for the three scenarios - again, obviously the third is more counter-productive and in all honesty I would prefer the post to be withdrawn from the board. As Tender mentioned - the 2nd expressed regret and implied a request for support. For this poster I would at least like to see posters directing him to people that would help. On the other hand, however, these imply factual events which are a whole different kettle of fish.

To give a bit of background about myself: I have, at one time, worked with children that had been sexually or physically abused by their parents as minors. I got to read reports of how they need to be kept in seperate schools or detention centres due to uncontrollable violent rages or innapropriate sexual behaviour towards other children (these are 5-8yr olds here) one child's social worker even mentioned that she believed that one child may well actually kill another child due to the issues unleashed. Either way, hardly any of these children are expected to be able to lead any type of normal life as an adult due to what they experienced as a child.

This experience may make me more against the current status-quo - especially seeing that this isn't a board that is in no way related to this topic, but that is just one man's opinion.

 

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mindseye: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1068262917;start=0#17 date=11/09/03 at 16:08:33]I haven't made my position completely clear on the issue as of yet, but my thoughts on the matter coincide pretty much with Donk's.[/quote]


Well, everyone knows where I stand. : And believe me, I'm very much aware of what a taboo topic it is. I've tried to come up with topics that equal this one for pure revolt and shock value, and have come up with very few. ("Snuff" posts, especially if they're racist in nature, was the leading contender...) But I think this particular topic is too taboo.

Most children -- by nature -- are skilled tattletales. Whether it's "Katie took my doll and won't give it back" or "Billy Tomkins beat me up at school today", I haven't seen a child yet who hasn't gone through a stage in their life where they protest every slight against them in hopes that Mom or Dad will right the wrong. (Developmental psychologists out there -- any ideas why this is so universal?)

And yet -- what a horrific scandal that broke in the news last year: for years, the Boston diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, upon learning that a priest had sexually abused a minor in his parish, would reassign that priest to a different parish instead of defrocking him and exposing him to humiliation. A single priest, John Geoghan, was accused of molesting between 130-150 children over a 30 year period this way. Eventually convicted, he was murdered in prison while awaiting appeal. Other priests (1 2 3 ) in the same diocese were similarly sheltered.

How can I help but wonder -- why did so few of their victims say anything? Why didn't more children -- tattletales by nature -- come forward?

Vile as this topic is, maybe if it were a little less taboo, and people weren't so quick to suppress it the very moment it rears its ugly head, children might not feel such pressure themselves to not talk about it.

 

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Donk: P.S. I forgot to mention that I find it a very hopeful sign that the "no nude photos" policy giganticok instituted in the "Young and Hung" forum has been respected and allowed to remain in place.