Nuclear vs Fossil Fuel

midlifebear

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rough_neck_9_1:

You forgot to mention how attractive the Diablo Canyon Plant is as its corrugated zinc metal facade continues to rust into nothing and loses chunks in strong Pacific winds. Yes, it has certainly been a visual blessing for Moro Bay. And the name "Diablo" is so much more poetic than just "devil."

And don't forget . . . it was constructed by the lowest bidder.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot. No one . . . as in NO ONE has been able to predict that the initial costs of building the Diablo Canyon facility will ever pay back the government subsidy that Pacific Gas and Electric needed to build it. Therefore, don't count on it's first generating plant to be decommissioned in 2024. They'll want to squeeze every glowing penny out of those power plants way beyond their safety date because the cost of decommissioning them was not part of the original, approved budget.
 
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vince

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rough_neck_9_1:

You forgot to mention how attractive the Diablo Canyon Plant is as its corrugated zinc metal facade continues to rust into nothing and loses chunks in strong Pacific winds. Yes, it has certainly been a visual blessing for Moro Bay. And the name "Diablo" is so much more poetic than just "devil."

And don't forget . . . it was constructed by the lowest bidder.
Who was also the bidder who apparently built the plant back to front. :eek:
Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me.

(how does one "flip" the blueprints of a nuke plant?)
 

rough_neck_9_1

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Are you sure you're talking about Diablo Power Plant and not say the Dynegy Power Plant built in the 1950's, which to my understanding was in operation under PG&E along with Diablo Canyon until the facility all but shut down and PG&E almost entirely walked away from the place as it now operates under 5% capacity.

Because then we'd also have to talk about two things, firstly the Dynergy Plant is not nuclear itself, there is no reactor on site as I believe its a Natural Gas power station that was put in place long before the Diablo Power Plant. Secondly there is a proposal to modernize the plant and in those planes is the removal of the site in question entirely. As the new plans will plant the power station to the northwest and with smaller towers. Though these plans as I understand are of an uncertain future, I can't say entirely why with any certainty.

Pacific Gas and Electric was the one to bid the plans if I'm not mistaken but moving on. Its unquestionably some really stupid shit, building the place as a spec mirror image of the plans. But then again the NRC green lit the site, it's fully operational and without incident and has lived through an earthquake already. So there's some argument to be made flipping the plans didn't hinder its effectiveness. It's more a mark of embarrassment then anything else.
 
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midlifebear

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Well, it's not uncommon in the USA for a contractor to start with the right-reading instead of left-reading set of blue prints. But if it's a contractor you've hired to build your house, you're usually protected by the contractor's insurance.

But something interesting about nuclear power plants that everyone seems to gloss over when talking about how safe they are: 1. No bank or collection of Wall Street investors has or probably ever will bankroll their construction because of the long term potential costs,. And this includes a rather lackluster Price to Earnings ratio. Even with the Government behind them they tend not to turn a profit. Also, 2. no pubic insurance company will ever insure a nuclear plant for the same reason. The risks are too great.

Every nuclear power plant in the USA has been subsidized by enormous loans and tax subsidies by the US Government's Nuclear Regulatory Agency. It is the US Government that ensures (not insures) the safety and pays for any fuck ups.

So, for those who really want to extoll the virtues of nuclear power (and it does have some whiz-bang benefits) you need to ask yourselves, if nuclear power is just a happy gentle giant, why no US financial institutions are willing to pony up the money for their construction? They may, after the fact, buy utility stock in an entity such as Pacific Gas and Electric, but they don't hold those investments in perpetuity because as yet no nuclear power plant has produced a sustainable profit. Therefore, it makes good sense to ask why private enterprise isn't rushing in and making all the BIG BIG BUCKS promised by nuclear power.

And secondly, you also have to ask why US Nuclear Power is not taken on by the big insurance companies as clients. One immediate answer is that unlike countries where nuclear power has proven to be so successful is because the administration of those nuclear operations includes the refining and reusability of spent nuclear fuel. We don't do that in the USA. France and Germany have a remarkable track record of squeezing every bit of usefulness out of Uranium 135 and 125 and their subsequent off spring (plutonium anyone?) as well as the icky by products such as cesium, etc. What they cannot reuse or repurpose is encased in barrels of molten glass. Molten glass mixed in to stabilize the icky stuff. That super cooled liquid -- glass -- gives France and Germany plenty of time to deal with the worst of the worst later, which most likely means remelting the glass and enclosing it in more glass every two or three hundred years. They can do this for about 2,000 years. By that time stuff like Strontium 90 is as safe as dust bunnies.

In the USA the way we dispense of nuclear waste is to entomb it in concrete which eventually forms cracks. Despite what you may have been spoon fed by the US Government, the Nuclear Regulatory Agency is rather cavalier about how it contains stuff that, if it contaminates aquifers, (any kind of aquifer - above ground, below ground, your kid's plastic wading pool), contaminates it for millennia. Just read up on what's happening off of the Pacific Shelf west of Theattle, Portland, San Francisco (especially the Monterrey Trench) and Los Angeles. Before there was ever an Atomic Regulatory Commission the US Government had no problem dumping highly radioactive waste in the deepest trenches off of the Pacific Shelf. Supposedly, we don't do that anymore.

A great deal of more thought needs to be put to work designing better than what is touted as "the new generation" of nuclear power plants and how to safely dispose of waste before we start building them all over the country. Oh, and there is still that thorny issue of how to decommission the current generation and the generation before that of nuclear power plants.

We'll undoubtably end up becoming a glow-in-the-dark Nation, but a lot more thought needs to be put into it.
 

vince

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So Nuclear power plants require heavy government regulation, lots of red tape, and subsides. hmmm.. I thought all those things were what was wrong with America. Govt. should just git outta the way and let industry get on with what it does best. Glow baby, glow.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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But something interesting about nuclear power plants that everyone seems to gloss over when talking about how safe they are: 1. No bank or collection of Wall Street investors has or probably ever will bankroll their construction because of the long term potential costs,. And this includes a rather lackluster Price to Earnings ratio. Even with the Government behind them they tend not to turn a profit. Also, 2. no pubic insurance company will ever insure a nuclear plant for the same reason. The risks are too great.

Every nuclear power plant in the USA has been subsidized by enormous loans and tax subsidies by the US Government's Nuclear Regulatory Agency. It is the US Government that ensures (not insures) the safety and pays for any fuck ups.

These are rather the affects of nuclear alarmism. Nuclear is completely viable in many countries, and the rate per kW/hr is favorable enough that they pay for themselves over the life of the plant.

The reason that plants don't get built in the US is panic and fairly unrealistic levels of red tape involved in getting one done. Ever since the nuclear panic of Chernobyl and TMI, there is a strong NIMBY sentiment, and getting approval takes years, with tons of expensive studies and town meetings delaying things. Now keep in mind, I'm all for heavy safety precautions with nuclear, but it's a bit off the deep end over here.

Because of the extreme amount of perceived obstacles and risk, it's fairly hard to get the money together without subsidies.

So, for those who really want to extoll the virtues of nuclear power (and it does have some whiz-bang benefits) you need to ask yourselves, if nuclear power is just a happy gentle giant, why no US financial institutions are willing to pony up the money for their construction?

Some actually are. There has been a tiny flood of new development projects lately, as nuclear hysteria has died down.

They may, after the fact, buy utility stock in an entity such as Pacific Gas and Electric, but they don't hold those investments in perpetuity because as yet no nuclear power plant has produced a sustainable profit. Therefore, it makes good sense to ask why private enterprise isn't rushing in and making all the BIG BIG BUCKS promised by nuclear power.

In this country, that's probably true. But not so in many others.

And secondly, you also have to ask why US Nuclear Power is not taken on by the big insurance companies as clients.

Again, too much red tape. If I remember correctly, the regulations covering nuclear reactor insurance uses such broad terminology that the underwriter takes on a huge liability.

One immediate answer is that unlike countries where nuclear power has proven to be so successful is because the administration of those nuclear operations includes the refining and reusability of spent nuclear fuel. We don't do that in the USA. France and Germany have a remarkable track record of squeezing every bit of usefulness out of Uranium 135 and 125 and their subsequent off spring (plutonium anyone?) as well as the icky by products such as cesium, etc.

Correct. The US, due to nuclear proliferation fears, does not reprocess fuel. Basically we get rid of our fuel when only 99% or so of the total available fuel has been used. This is wasteful, but ideological.

What they cannot reuse or repurpose is encased in barrels of molten glass. Molten glass mixed in to stabilize the icky stuff. That super cooled liquid -- glass -- gives France and Germany plenty of time to deal with the worst of the worst later, which most likely means remelting the glass and enclosing it in more glass every two or three hundred years. They can do this for about 2,000 years. By that time stuff like Strontium 90 is as safe as dust bunnies.

Vitrification is generally used for lower level waste, but spent fuel rods usually sit in a pool until they're safe enough for dry storage.

In the USA the way we dispense of nuclear waste is to entomb it in concrete which eventually forms cracks. Despite what you may have been spoon fed by the US Government, the Nuclear Regulatory Agency is rather cavalier about how it contains stuff that, if it contaminates aquifers, (any kind of aquifer - above ground, below ground, your kid's plastic wading pool), contaminates it for millennia. Just read up on what's happening off of the Pacific Shelf west of Theattle, Portland, San Francisco (especially the Monterrey Trench) and Los Angeles. Before there was ever an Atomic Regulatory Commission the US Government had no problem dumping highly radioactive waste in the deepest trenches off of the Pacific Shelf. Supposedly, we don't do that anymore.

We have a great option for storage in Yucca Mountain..hell we could probably sell other countries that storage space. There's no ground water seepage issue there. The problem is, the Senate majority Leader comes from there, and it's a huge NIMBY issue.

A great deal of more thought needs to be put to work designing better than what is touted as "the new generation" of nuclear power plants and how to safely dispose of waste before we start building them all over the country. Oh, and there is still that thorny issue of how to decommission the current generation and the generation before that of nuclear power plants.

Waste storage is indeed the hardest issue to address as far as nuclear goes. Most is just store on-site, but solutions such as Yucca do exist. There's just no easy ones. I'm definitely not a fan of what we do now.

We'll undoubtably end up becoming a glow-in-the-dark Nation, but a lot more thought needs to be put into it.

I don't really think that's accurate. You don't need to solve all the issues for a technology completely before you can use it, and you never will anyway. It's more about mitigating your downsides.

The thing is, coal waste is a much, much bigger issue. If you want to generate power for a country, you basically have the choice of nuclear or coal, and coal is far, far more unsafe to humans and the environment. The amount of coal waste produced is staggering compared to nuclear. Carefully stored nuclear waste is fairly safe, while there really is no careful way to store coal ash, just big ass ponds, and when they break like in 2008, they'll utterly destroy an ecosystem for a very, very long time.

The 2008 Tennessee ash spill is generally agreed to be the worst ecological disaster in history, and you barely hear about it.

So anyways, no power generation tech is perfect, but Nuclear wins over coal hands down, and those are basically our only choices right now.
 

legionking

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nuclear energy is the best source of energy that can be used during this time period.

i dont know why there is so much red tape on using nuclear energy, during the 1960-1980s. the usa government conducted many nuclear bomb tests out in the deserts. the bombs have effected towns and people living downwind of the bomb tests and the government was quick to shut those people up.
 
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deleted15807

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So Nuclear power plants require heavy government regulation, lots of red tape, and subsides. hmmm.. I thought all those things were what was wrong with America. Govt. should just git outta the way and let industry get on with what it does best. Glow baby, glow.

Exactly. The problems with capitalism can only be fixed with MORE capitalism. Got it? :smile:
 

D_Tully Tunnelrat

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Exactly. The problems with capitalism can only be fixed with MORE capitalism. Got it? :smile:

In the case of nuclear power, no capitalist with any sense given the cost and risks, will touch the industry without government guarantees, and, as we have seen in Japan, even those in time of crisis, are of dubious certainty.

What is the half life of uranium? According to Wikipedia, U234 has a half life of 245K years. U238 comes in at 4.4B years. I'm no scientist, but those numbers are ridiculously too long for anyone to maintain it's possible to responsibly store spent fuel. In fact, it is the spent fuel rods in Fukushima that are releasing the most radiation, impeding workers from addressing the reactors, as the rods were sitting submersed in outside pools, now dry, and with no containment.
 

B_crackoff

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FYI

The Japanese Govt. has just announced that anyone exposed to just 6 hours of the current level of radiation 20 MILES away, is getting the maximum ANNUAL safe dose.

The current exclusion zone is 12.5 miles. My thoughts are definitely with the Japanese citizens.

The cost of all evacuations due to this - rehousing, lost production, lost business faith, medical, & the shut down cost itself - have to be added on as a cost of nuclear power, even as a risk based percentage.

The UK has vast untouched coal reserves which it no longer really mines due to dodgy accounting about cost/unit price. Much of that could be used via non-mining technologies, such as coal bed methane, & coal gasification, let alone cleaner coal technology.

It would also employ a hell of a lot of people domestically, the opportunity cost of which is never used when comparing costs of energy production.

Unfortunately, the last Govt. din't have an energy policy whatsoever, & didn't build even one (I think) new power station in 13 years! This pretty much forced them into cheering on nuclear.

All of our countries seem to be run by muppets.
 

Jason

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The view coming out of the UK and USA seems to be that there is a significant risk to health within a radius of 50miles/80kms. This is an enormous area to evacuate - there's no obvious place for these people to go. I suppose the really lasting issue is going to be whether when this incident is over there is still an exclusion zone. If it is just a mile or so I guess Japan will manage fine. If it is even a few miles it becomes quite a problem - and what of the communities just outside? The Chernobyl exclusion zone is 19 miles (30kms) and additionally there are significant problems outside that zone. Japan could be facing a permanent evacuation of a million or more people.

I think the world will need a calm stock-taking after this disaster. Chernobyl was an old reactor, badly maintained, and the event (for people who don't live there) is passing into the history books. But this disaster is in a first world country with (we think) exacting safety systems. Best scenario is actualy that the world finds evidence of safety breaches in Japan, eg poorly maintained reactors known to be unsafe. Otherwise we are left with a problem without an obvious solution. In the end for the UK and for much of the world windmills and insulation are not enough - either we go for more nuclear or we burn fossil fuels.
 

D_Tully Tunnelrat

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The US State Dept. today mandated that all US citizens retreat to a 50 mile radius, which is huge, as Japan is a small country, and that's a bigger than was mandated at Chernobyl. Japan mandated 18M to it's citizens. Many other nations: France, Russia, are evacuating all national personnel. The IAEA is sending in their top inspectors. Tokyo Power clearly cannot handle this crisis on their own.

One would hope that this crisis was borne of disaster, not inattention, but nuclear power has such hazardous long term eco-consequences, it's impossible to plan for once in a 250K year event, much less 4.4B. We just witnessed Japan moved 30 feet in a day, in the day, because of the quake, that was 6 minutes shorter, despite the days getting longer than the day before. How do you keep spent nuclear fuel safe under such conditions? I certainly hope they can quickly encase the spent fuel rods in the cooling pools, and attend reactor 4 before more radiation is released. I just read that reactor 3 is plutonium based, which is even more cancerous than uranium.

The Japanese are amazingly resilient, but this is a huge blow, as 500K are homeless, 4.3K are dead, 8K+ are in hospital, and 17K are unaccounted for. Whatever the outcome of the power plant, Japan will rebuild, but there's going to be need to be time for a lot of grieving before then.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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FYI

The Japanese Govt. has just announced that anyone exposed to just 6 hours of the current level of radiation 20 MILES away, is getting the maximum ANNUAL safe dose.

Haha, no.

The current exclusion zone is 12.5 miles. My thoughts are definitely with the Japanese citizens.

Doesn't match the facts chief.

The cost of all evacuations due to this - rehousing, lost production, lost business faith, medical, & the shut down cost itself - have to be added on as a cost of nuclear power, even as a risk based percentage.

And all the cost of respiratory illness, death, etc, needs to be added to coal. I guarentee you that would make it more expensive.

The UK has vast untouched coal reserves which it no longer really mines due to dodgy accounting about cost/unit price. Much of that could be used via non-mining technologies, such as coal bed methane, & coal gasification, let alone cleaner coal technology.

Coal is a dirty as hell and far more unsafe for humans than nuclear. Shit, the mining alone kills more people than nuclear ever has.

It would also employ a hell of a lot of people domestically, the opportunity cost of which is never used when comparing costs of energy production.

It will also hurt or kill a hell of a lot domestically. But since it's not SCARY RADIATION, we don't consider that. Actually, it is SCARY radiation, because burning coal releases uranium and thorium isotopes into the atmosphere.

Unfortunately, the last Govt. din't have an energy policy whatsoever, & didn't build even one (I think) new power station in 13 years! This pretty much forced them into cheering on nuclear.

All of our countries seem to be run by muppets.

Yes, coal muppets in the case of the US. Though that's not entirely fair, since there's also a political cost, since people are stupid about nuclear.
 

B_nyvin

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Due to nuclear power, France's CO2 per kWh are less than 1/10 that of Germany and the UK, and 1/13 that of Denmark, which has no nuclear plants. Its emissions of Nitrogen Oxide and sulfer oxidehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide have been reduced by 70% over 20 years, even though the total power output has tripled in that time.
 

B_crackoff

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Haha, no.
Doesn't match the facts chief.

Fair enough. The BBC news at 2 o'clock yesterday was lying. Chief!

And all the cost of respiratory illness, death, etc, needs to be added to coal. I guarentee you that would make it more expensive.

Coal is a dirty as hell and far more unsafe for humans than nuclear. Shit, the mining alone kills more people than nuclear ever has.

Maybe you can have nuclear waste stored in your garage?

It will also hurt or kill a hell of a lot domestically. But since it's not SCARY RADIATION, we don't consider that. Actually, it is SCARY radiation, because burning coal releases uranium and thorium isotopes into the atmosphere.

There hasn't been a single recorded death though, & flyash capture methods are being developed all the time.

Yes, coal muppets in the case of the US. Though that's not entirely fair, since there's also a political cost, since people are stupid about nuclear.

It's pretty simple then, why don't all pro nuclear people move closest to the nuclear plants!

Due to nuclear power, France's CO2 per kWh are less than 1/10 that of Germany and the UK, and 1/13 that of Denmark, which has no nuclear plants. Its emissions of Nitrogen Oxide and sulfer oxide have been reduced by 70% over 20 years, even though the total power output has tripled in that time.

France has very little in the way of natural resources, which is why they embraced nuclear, & yes, it does seem to have an OK record, with only the odd leak of Caesium & plutonium.

However, it gets its uranium from Niger, where workers are not informed of the health risks. The long term attrition rate for uranium mining as a whole is 37,500/million, compared to 164/million for construction workers.

http://www.reachingcriticalwill.org/resources/edkit/21uramine.pdf
http://www.hcn.org/wotr/lets-not-forget-the-hidden-costs-of-uranium-mining
http://www.foeeurope.org/activities/Nuclear/pdf/2008/Public_Eye_Denounces_Areva.pdf

Coal mining doesn't cause massive area evacuations, & make areas uninhabitable.

The main concern with nuclear that is the fundamental worry, is that human error,disasters & management overuse of productive capability in an attempt to maximise output, will cause severe leaks.

It's transparent that the 1 in 100,000 year possibility of a core meltdown is vastly overstated. For supporters to blindly trust an industry, & not at least campaign for independent groups to be set up as watchdogs (I've already linked the Chernobyl disasters scathing comments about the IAEA), seems naive.
 
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D_Bob_Crotchitch

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Solar, wind, and hydro-electric are better choices. Nuclear is not safe. There is no safe way to dispose of the waste. When Ike was pres, he instructed officials to keep the public from being properly informed about its danger.
Coal can be used in cleaner ways than most industries use it. There are exhaust scrubbers that take a lot of the toxins out of the air.
Still, what nature already provides is a better choice.
 

rough_neck_9_1

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Solar, wind, and hydro-electric are better choices. Nuclear is not safe. There is no safe way to dispose of the waste. When Ike was pres, he instructed officials to keep the public from being properly informed about its danger.
Coal can be used in cleaner ways than most industries use it. There are exhaust scrubbers that take a lot of the toxins out of the air.
Still, what nature already provides is a better choice.


Except this level of safety isn't true for the people producing the power through alternative measures then nuclear. A study found that in Europe alone, wind energy has killed more people than nuclear energy. The leading cause of accidents involving wind energy farms is "blade failure," which is when a turbine blade breaks, sending shrapnel flying through the air.On top of that worldwide, hydroelectric energy has, too.With hydroelectric, of course, you get disasters and floods related to the dams. Coal kills more miners every few years than the initial blast at Chernobyl. This, of course, doesn't take into account air pollution from coal, which dwarfs those numbers yearly.

Even with nuclear power plants still in operation in the United States today, you and everyone who works in them still effectively have a 0 percent chance of dying from radiation poisoning.

As far as moving the material, the nuclear rods and such, after their primary use. The Department of Energy tests for the best way to transport the spent materials, as well as testing when the method of transportation goes disastrously wrong.

From there its a matter of storage, and we've looked into the by building Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository, and the only down side to Yucca as of 2011 has been the facility has not been opened to receive and store waste. This is mostly do to public opposition to the opening of the site. You have to remember this site is built where we used to blow up actual nuclear weapons on the surface, we looked into if it was a good idea to store material underground at Yucca.

FYI:
There is no such thing as a "safe" dose of radiation.

Yes there is, when was the last time you used a microwave, had an X-ray, or flown on a plane in which the passengers are exposed to levels of radiation. Or even so much as stepped outside into the sun my friend. You deal with radiation all the time.
 
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Industrialsize

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Industrialsize
FYI:
There is no such thing as a "safe" dose of radiation.



Yes there is, when was the last time you used a microwave, had an X-ray, or flown on a plane in which the passengers are exposed to levels of radiation. Or even so much as stepped outside into the sun my friend. You deal with radiation all the time.
Actually there is no safe dose of radiation. Your exposure is cumulative over a lifetime. Every bit of radiation you receive adds to your lifetime dose.
 
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