Obama and racial division.

kalipygian

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Posts
1,948
Media
31
Likes
139
Points
193
Age
68
Location
alaska
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Drifter, I am slightly skeptical that the long Jefferson piece was written 200 years ago, the style and language seem like something more recent. Among other things, the repeated use 'blacks' as a general term for people of African ancestry is most characteristic of the last 50 years, it could have been used then, but negro is very much more likely, especially in something that aspires to be 'scientific'.

It would also seem that if it were genuine, it would be better know, his papers and books all went to the library of congress, they were the nucleus, and have been very thoroughly studied.
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

Account Disabled
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Posts
3,692
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
133
Sexuality
No Response
I love this post. Being part Mexican and having not grown up in South or Central Los Angeles but among the "saints" of the Inter Mountain West, racism has always meant something other to me than "blacks", AKA African 'Mericuhns vs. white European-types.

I will have my autobiography published posthusmously under the title:
I Passed for Beige. It should be a decent seller. :biggrin1:
Yes, I agree. :)

Beige como la mayoria la gente de las Americas? Si?
Creo que una buena idea para un libro! Quizas como Gloria Anzaldua?
Estamos conectados por nuestro shared experiences.
Nosotros no podemos vivir separado, especialmente cuando compartimos mucho.

/bad Spanish :biggrin1:
 
Last edited:

marleyisalegend

Loved Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Posts
6,126
Media
1
Likes
620
Points
333
Age
38
Location
charlotte
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Beige como la mayoria la gente de las Americas? Si? Creo que una buena idea para un libro! Quizas como Gloria Anzaldua? Estamos conectados por nuestro shared experiences.
Nosotros no podemos vivir separado, especialmente cuando compartimos mucho.

Lo siento de informarle, las divisiones siempre han existido y siempre existiran. El internet apoya este porque ahora los divisores pueden conectar, para un rato ellos pensaron que ellos fueron extintos.

Tenemos que aceptar los divisores como un hecho de la vida. Ellos siempre estaran aqui.

El espanol MUY mal.
 

dreamer20

Mythical Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Posts
8,009
Media
3
Likes
25,495
Points
693
Gender
Male

In the current, American, colloquial vernacular a black person is someone born in the United States, (this includes Alaska and Hawaii) and is descendant of slaves in this country.
This is why some militant type blacks, for lack of a better term, do not consider President-elect Obama to be a true, black American. :rolleyes:

Caribbean and African born blacks who have migrated to America may have dark skin, but are not usually considered to be black.

The better term describing your "militant" blacks is "ignorant". Currently they consider the word black pertains only to brown skinned Americans who are descendants of Africans. However the term black is also descriptive of the other members of the African diaspora and Africans themselves.


It has been my experience that Caribbean and African born 'blacks' look down upon American blacks and think that we are stupid and lazy. :mad:

I hope your experience hasn't led you to make sweeping generalizations about the denizens of the Caribbean and Africa.
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

Account Disabled
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Posts
3,692
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
133
Sexuality
No Response
Lo siento de informarle, las divisiones siempre han existido y siempre existiran. El internet apoya este porque ahora los divisores pueden conectar, para un rato ellos pensaron que ellos fueron extintos.

Tenemos que aceptar los divisores como un hecho de la vida. Ellos siempre estaran aqui.

El espanol MUY mal.

Siempre?
Quizas porque yo vivo en la frontera, creo que estamos conectados whether Negrita, Latina, Mestiza, o Indegina.

Yo me veo, mi madre, mi tia, mi abuela, mis primas, etc. en ellos and yo estoy conectado y nunca separate from that identity.

y no, yo Espanol es muy mal.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Drifter, I am slightly skeptical that the long Jefferson piece was written 200 years ago, the style and language seem like something more recent.
...

It would also seem that if it were genuine, it would be better know, his papers and books all went to the library of congress, they were the nucleus, and have been very thoroughly studied.

You surprise me.

Jefferson's 'Notes on the State of Virginia' was not only famous for its racial overtones but the only book published during his lifetime. That, its purpose, an initial anonymous publication and the manner in which it was re-published in English (to correct an unathorised French translation described by Jefferson as "Inverted, abridged, mutilated, and often reversing the sense of the original") render it noteworthy even over here in heathen Euroland

By all accounts Jefferson later came to consider the first version (printed privately in France in 1784) as definitive. You will find numerous instances of the work online.

Unless you are suggesting the work wasn't written by Jefferson in the late 18th Century?
 

marleyisalegend

Loved Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Posts
6,126
Media
1
Likes
620
Points
333
Age
38
Location
charlotte
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Yo me veo, mi madre, mi tia, mi abuela, mis primas, etc. en ellos and yo estoy conectado y nunca separate from that identity.

y no, yo Espanol es muy mal.

A veces es el mejor que no conecta con las miembres de su familia. Tengo demasiado whores, liars, backstabbers, thieves, and crackheads.
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

Account Disabled
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Posts
3,692
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
133
Sexuality
No Response
The better term describing your "militant" blacks is "ignorant". Currently they consider the word black pertains only to brown skinned Americans who are descendants of Africans. However the term black is also descriptive of the other members of the African diaspora and Africans themselves.


I hope your experience hasn't led you to make sweeping generalizations about the denizens of the Caribbean and Africa.
Yes, yes, those generalizations are dangerous.
One of the reasons I feel we have these divisions between different groups of Black people is because American Blacks lack a connection to the African diaspora, pan Africanism, negritude, etc., we are largely ignorant about these concepts and it is to our detriment.

A veces es el mejor que no conecta con las miembres de su familia. Tengo demasiado whores, liars, backstabbers, thieves, and crackheads.
mi amor, que no puede ser una buen vida... find some new connections. :hug:
 
Last edited:

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,815
Points
333
Location
Greece
It would also seem that if it were genuine, it would be better known

:wink:

Some conspiracies are orthodox in the cause of "expediency".

As is often the case in the story of the British Empire, you need to be able to hear the other person's story to know the history. We have been through this process, it appears that the US is yet to. Perhaps in Barack's second term this may happen. We'll see.

In this case, you can read Jefferson's own thoughts. He was born into a slave exploiting family, he inherited a slave exploiting estate, he lived off slaves, and he died a slave exploiter, in the meantime he wrote the most vile treatise on complete racism that I have ever read. Oh and he wrote something about inalienable rights and all men being free, unless they were his slaves of course. He sure was a victim, subjugated you might say.

Have him as a hero if you wish. He's not my cup of tea.
 

B_starinvestor

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2006
Posts
4,383
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Location
Midwest
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
:wink:

Some conspiracies are orthodox in the cause of "expediency".

As is often the case in the story of the British Empire, you need to be able to hear the other person's story to know the history. We have been through this process, it appears that the US is yet to. Perhaps in Barack's second term this may happen. We'll see.

In this case, you can read Jefferson's own thoughts. He was born into a slave exploiting family, he inherited a slave exploiting estate, he lived off slaves, and he died a slave exploiter, in the meantime he wrote the most vile treatise on complete racism that I have ever read. Oh and he wrote something about inalienable rights and all men being free, unless they were his slaves of course. He sure was a victim, subjugated you might say.

Have him as a hero if you wish. He's not my cup of tea.

Not impressed by the Revolutionary War too much, eh? Tough break.
 

B_starinvestor

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2006
Posts
4,383
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
Location
Midwest
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Thank you :smile: I was interested in reading more about him, but frankly I have now lost interest in him.

Yet you falsely and inaccurately condemn him.

The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.

Jefferson loved and adored this race. Brush up on your history before you pile this vile bullshit over your British agenda.
 

kalipygian

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Posts
1,948
Media
31
Likes
139
Points
193
Age
68
Location
alaska
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
You surprise me.

Jefferson's 'Notes on the State of Virginia' was not only famous for its racial overtones but the only book published during his lifetime. That, its purpose, an initial anonymous publication and the manner in which it was re-published in English (to correct an unathorised French translation described by Jefferson as "Inverted, abridged, mutilated, and often reversing the sense of the original") render it noteworthy even over here in heathen Euroland

By all accounts Jefferson later came to consider the first version (printed privately in France in 1784) as definitive. You will find numerous instances of the work online.

Unless you are suggesting the work wasn't written by Jefferson in the late 18th Century?

I am slightly disappointed at the conclusions you and Drifter seem to be jumping to of me here. He posted something with out a reference, I was not previously acquainted with it. I am not much into apotheosising founding fathers.

I found and read through it online at the U. of Virginia, it is there, from P.264 under 'Constitution', 'To emancipate all slaves born after the passing of the act'.

It is entirely racist. It is very disappointing that he could have lived his life on an estate populated mostly by African slaves, and been so deliberately ignorant.

P.289 is better known.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,815
Points
333
Location
Greece
Yet you falsely and inaccurately condemn him.

The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.

Jefferson loved and adored this race. Brush up on your history before you pile this vile bullshit over your British agenda.

Do you know what a demagogue is? I don't get starry eyed over Eighteenth Century soundbites, and trust me, I have absolutely no problem with every nation being self determining, including my own, which actually isn't quite.

Those were Jefferson's views on race - deal with it, it is not my issue.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
I am slightly disappointed at the conclusions you and Drifter seem to be jumping to of me here. He posted something with out a reference, I was not previously acquainted with it. I am not much into apotheosising founding fathers.

Speaking for myself, I drew no conclusions - merely expressed surprise because you have always stuck me as well read. Perhaps you missed it but the extract was cited with a reference that's why I was surprised when you questioned its authenticity.

The comment that (in my experience) has drawn much ire is:

"I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind."

This is in fact from the section on Laws, rather than constitution.

I'm not seeking to judge Jefferson as a man, I have no right to do so and I'm unqualified. We must also bear in mind that his comments were written close to a century before Darwin forced a less anecdotal approach to this issue (and many others). We are also evaluating his words with the benefit of over 200 years of hindsight. They may have reflected the prevailing wisdom of his day but by any modern standard they are seen for what they are. We can pour scorn on his words, for they are unambiguous, but we can only make informed guesses about his motivation for expressing them.

While Jefferson wasn't a principal architect of the Constitution many provisions therein fly in the face of his earlier assertion that - "... all men are created equal", not to mention his status as a slave owner, I'd say. The one truth about Jefferson that is self evident is that, like many (then and today) he didn't practice what he preached.

This leads (in a roundabout way) to the bizarre allusion by Nick4444 (I may have misunderstood him - ut can be tricky to understand what he means) that because Jefferson was born a citizen of the Empire he is somehow absolved of responsibility for his views and actions, and thus by inference the US in a wider sense isn't responsible for the ensuing 200+ years of race relations policies formulated and enforced within its borders.

Even if I accepted the former (which I don't, Jefferson was an intelligent, educated man who profited from the exploitation of those many would believe he strove unstintingly to emancipate) I certainly don't accept the latter. Indeed, Nick's grasp on reality is further undermined where he writes (in response to a comment by Drifter about racism in the US):

which again, had its genesis and exposition across the Atlantic, and which began to lose force on American soil, as the energy, vitality, and genius of the formerly subjugated, helped to shape this new nation...

Followed up with:

all in the history books, dear fellow

Indeed it is in the history books but not as he would argue. History doesn't record a neat and steady decline in racial tensions and divisions, quite the reverse:

How does Nick explain that almost 200 years after Jefferson wrote those words the US was still enforcing, its own brand of Apartheid?

How does he explain the genocidal acts perpetrated against Native Americans?

How does he explain how the US failed to abolish a trade he argued it 'inherited' from its former colonial master decades after said colonial power had done so?

How can he argue for a weakening of racial intolerance when the very constitution under which he lives failed (at its inception) not only to forbid the traffic in slaves, inserted in clause 3 (which is still extant) that escaped slaves be returned to their owners, delayed the abolishion of the trade but above all expressly valued a slave as 3/5 of a man?

Back to reality - I appreciate the constitution was a political compromise; my point being that the a large part of price the US paid for its birth was the lives and liberty of those who helped underpin the very prosperity and values it today holds dear. For Nick to deny this and seek to shift the blame onto a former colonial power is both callow and an affront to those who suffered and died at the hands of those who he (and others) would seek to deify.

The founding Fathers had an opportunity to right more wrongs than they did, and it's easy to second guess them 250 years into the future but at least acknowledge the imperfection.

The other risk here is that this will be seen as an attack on the US and an attempt to absolve the UK for its own sins. Neither is the case, the UK has blood on its hands too, but I do believe it has (overall) been more successful at coming to terms with its true history. Denial is a appealing analgesic, but it's no cure.

Which brings us neatly to the OP and the role Obama may (or may not) play in the administration of that cure. It would seem from a distance that even today, too many remain unwilling to concede that there is even much of a need for one.
 

B_Nick4444

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Posts
6,849
Media
0
Likes
108
Points
193
Location
San Antonio, TX
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
sadly, it was the force of law

which in fact was followed

that is the very law I referred to

which had NO specific rescission or repeal

even when Britain finally began to address its dismal race relations situation, with the passage of the Race Relations Act of 1965, it particularly, and carefully avoided addressing discrimination in employment

the debate and documentation behind the Act shows the specific intent to continue to permit that discrimination

it was not until the 1976 with the enactment of that Act, that employment in discrimination was addressed

dear fellows, enforcement of laws in Great Britain has always been very accommodating to current exigency or convenience as you well know, whether it be dealing with Elizabeth I's order:

Elizabeth I issued an open letter on 11 July 1596 when the population of Britain was around 3 million, which read:
Her Majestie understanding that there are of late divers blackmoores brought into this realme, of which kinde of people there are allready here to manie … Her Majesty's pleasure therefore ys that those kinde of people should be sent forth of the lande, and for that purpose there ys direction given to this bearer Edwarde Banes to take of those blackmoores that in this last voyage under Sir Thomas Baskervile were brought into this realme the nomber of tenn, to be transported by him out of the realme. Wherein wee require you to be aydinge and assysting unto him as he shall have occacion, therof not to faile.
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/immig.html#34
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/immig.html#34


Failure to fully comply with the order was attributable to the fact that a number of higher-tier families wanted to keep their slaves



hardly a sound bite, dear fellows.




Nick, is that all you have - a 275 year old sound bite?

The Lord Mayor of London, today or in 1731 (the position dates back to the late 12th Century) has no legislative authority. In 1731 Francis Child, the then Lord Mayor, could (sadly) say what he wanted, but that didn't give it force in law.

I surely don't need to point out that while London is the Capital, what happened there didn't (and doesn't) of necessity apply elsewhere, but then, as usual, you weren't being very specific. I also shouldn't need to point out, (but I will, as you clearly need the help) that slavery was never legal within Britain - it was essentially a tool of the empire, this tends to render the already negligible weight of Child's drivel even more impotent.

The reality, as ever, is somewhat askance from the legality, but again you weren't being very precise were you. So again, I ask you to please cite the legislation upon which you based your assertion, and for a bonus point provide details of when (long after WWII according to you) and under what Act of Parliament this legal prohibition was rescinded.

You made the assertion, so I assume you know? Speaking for myself, I'm all ears.

Drifter, sorry for diverting your thread, but while seeking to justify one's prejudice is bad enough, doing so by the deliberate use of a fallacy is far worse. While he may had had some redeeming characteristics, I'm glad you can see Jefferson objectively.
 

B_Nick4444

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Posts
6,849
Media
0
Likes
108
Points
193
Location
San Antonio, TX
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
yes

the American Quakers, however, were the ones who initiated the debate which influenced the Americans

I never found any history indicating a contemporaneous dissent on the Atlantic side

I could, and would be most happy to look again, but do be a good chap and point out such a reference; It would be most appreciated since I am so short of time these days

Incidentally Nick, the Quakers were founded in the UK. Some were persecuted by the Puritans here and fled to the colonies, where they were persecuted by the Puritans. I think one Lady was hung in Boston for her beliefs. The Quakers strongly influenced the debate on slavery in the UK and it was subsequently outlawed in their Empire. Clearly their message fell on deaf ears in your part of the world. Hardly surprising when you read what Jefferson had to say the races.
 
Last edited:

B_Nick4444

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Posts
6,849
Media
0
Likes
108
Points
193
Location
San Antonio, TX
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
oh, and bandied about is the notion that slavery was done away with in the UK

the genius behind the British Empire found a way around that too; slavery was problematic owing to the various and conflicting common law decisions surrounding their emancipation

to make things simple, they abolished slavery, and expanded indentured servitude:

In 1758, another legal authority stated that African slaves, brought into England and baptized, were free from slavery, though not from common service: that is, they were free from being bought and sold (22). Some, at least, of the London magistrates, however, refused even to rule that the slaves, once in England, were the property of their masters. The owners soon got around this by binding their slaves by articles of indenture, thus legitimating the whole relationship by a legal contract that could be enforced.

The black slave population in Britain was in a precarious position and largely unprotected by the criminal justice system. Escaped slaves who were recaptured were commonly subjected to brutal treatment. In the latter half of the eighteenth century, England was known as a land of slaves, where the nobility and the high-born were slave owners and involved in the Triangular Trade. To criticise such an English institution was considered eccentric.

Unlike the relations between the poor whites and the poor blacks, the relations between the poor blacks and their wealthy masters and owners were, in the main, based on fear and distrust, and condescension on the part of the masters. Life was tough and the rewards so few that the poor blacks could hardly be accused of taking anything away from the poor whites. Poor whites and poor blacks shared the same exploitation, deprivation and marginalisation, although the blacks were affected much more, being subject to legal discrimination as we shall see later. Both, however, were obliged to live in a twilight zone, and to survive by engaging in activities outside the pale of formal society.

As far as Jefferson, yes he was solidly an 18th Century Englishman. Given the values matrix of his cultural context, speaking of "absolving" him makes little sense, since the moral markers we follow today, were hardly there:


[SIZE=-1]The slave trade was at its height during the 18th Century and racism was deeply entrenched in British culture and politics. Images of black people were used on packaging for tobacco, spices, tea and coffee. Writers such as Edward Long were openly racist in their work. In his 1772 pamphlet, entitled Candid Reflections Upon the Judgement lately awarded by the Court of King's Bench On what is commonly called the Negroe-Cause, he wrote on the subject of children born of mixed parentage, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"in the course of a few generations more, the English blood will become so contaminated with this mixture till the whole nation resembles the Portuguese and Moriscos in complexion of skin and baseness of mind".[/SIZE]
The United Kingdom Council for Human Rights